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Of all the proposed changes, I like this one the least. The strong taunt aura of AAO is one of my favorite things about the set and I would be a sad munki if it were changed.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Not bad, but I'd address this from the other direction.
IE, leave the buffage in AAO where it is, but raise the end cost, to, say, .42 end per second. Then, to balance that out, lower the taunt aura down to willpower levels, or less. Poof! All better.  |
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I have gotten quite used to being able to rely on my Shield companions keeping aggro off me. I would be sad if they lost that.
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Of all the proposed changes, I like this one the least. The strong taunt aura of AAO is one of my favorite things about the set and I would be a sad munki if it were changed.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I think so. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Perhaps AAO should be capping somewhere closer to 12.5 + (2.5*10) = 37.5%
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I personnally would prefer AAO as a defensive toggle like Invincibility or RttC : adding a fixed amount of resistance (or defense), and a small amount for each target around. It would make on one hand the set more survivable, and on the other hand a less obvious choice each time you want your scrapper to deal more damage (that is pretty much all the time). But I guess it's too late now for such a change.
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Our impressions of the rate of this happening differ. I see this as the overwhelming majority of task forces I participate on. It is at the point where I don't even note it as being exceptional but the other cases are very memorable.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Actually, I find the experience to be very rare. Most people run slower than I want to go and most people do not want a TF to be played by one or two peeps on the team. I want to go fast, but I want to go fast together (mostly, splits happen at that speed, but splits are different than having 6 people wait for 2 people to play). I have no problem with speed runs, but I prefer it when they are whole team speed runs.
However, I was not telling that story to try to indicate that there is a problem where people are frequently relegating squishies into non-players. I do not think that is happening frequently. People seem quite happy to have blasters and while most teams do not bother to protect them very well, most teams do have a tank of some sort and simply letting them go in first is usually barely enough protection. I was simply demonstrating that I undertsand when you say that blasters have limitations that armored ATs do not have, while I was also stating that those limitations are frequently not a big deal. |
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What I said wasn't just theorycraft. It was what I did while leveling my Fire/Shield and playing dedicated small team tank. I tended to have enough survivability most of the time with my 32.5% defense or so. And plenty of purple inspirations dropped for those times when that WASN'T enough defense.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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If you think you can have just as much survivability (and fun) with 0% defense, farming kora fruit to mail to yourself, and constantly popping purples, have at it. But I hope you can see that the comparison is rather extreme, yes?
Look, I admit that inspiration use is a slippery slope. But that doesn't mean that inspiration use is irrelevant to a balance discussion or to the capabilities of a set in normal use. Normal use of inspirations is relevant to a discussion of the set in normal use. Does that not make sense?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
SR is fine...
in comparison to everything else but shields...
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Can you blame some of us for being wary? The devs don't exactly have a history of exercising a "light touch" when it comes to dolling out nerfs.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
On the flipside, I'm often told that my opinions don't matter because I'm supposed to be some highly skilled player running around on the fringes of performance and thus have no understanding of how "normal" players play the game.
Yea, I find that to be total BS as well. |
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
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Can I blame people for being wary of what?|
Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
Can you blame some of us for being wary? The devs don't exactly have a history of exercising a "light touch" when it comes to dolling out nerfs.
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Being wary of power level adjustments in general? No, I don't find that unreasonable at all.
Irrationally nay-saying proposed changes from folks that understand the whys and hows of power level adjustments for no other reason but that they understand things and honestly care about game balance? Yes, I find that rather ridiculous.
Would you like to know what I blame the devs for in general and Castle for in particular? Taking too long to make changes that are obviously needed.
Be well, people of CoH.
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This feedback means, to me, that the fix suggested is spot-on the mark.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Of all the proposed changes, I like this one the least. The strong taunt aura of AAO is one of my favorite things about the set and I would be a sad munki if it were changed.
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YMMV.
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This assumption is too general and does not take into account people who love Shield Defense and have thought it is too above average a set. Like me for instance, I've been one that has been pushing a Shield Charge change since the change to its damage output when the AT modifiers were added. Now I am trying to reduce the damage buff of Against All Odds. Before you begin to assume an idea, maybe you should think before you type.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The min/maxers who love SD want SD to stay as is, and the min/maxers who love some other set want SD to be nerfed.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I actually agree with that. Part of my wariness stems from the fact that very often when the devs change something, hit or miss, it doesn't get looked at again for sometimes upward of three years.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Would you like to know what I blame the devs for in general and Castle for in particular? Taking too long to make changes that are obviously needed.
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And that's a long time to have a fear component in Burn or set that was generally lol'd at like MA.
If buffs and nerfs were more frequent, like in WoW, I think there would be a lot less opposition to "trying" something or feeling out new numbers for 4-8 months.
Edit:
I'm not advocating for people like Deus_Otiosus either, for the record. >.>
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
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Oh, but painting everyone with the same brush and colour is much easier than painting a few people black and the others red. You don't even need to change your brush that way!|
Originally Posted by Santorican
maybe you should think before you type.
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As someone who plays two SD characters (SD/DM tank and Elec/SD scrapper) I do think SD is somewhat too powerful. SC nerf is well deserved, when I first used it on my Elec/SD I lolwatbbq'd when I realized it was more powerful than Lightning Rod. I'm not yet sure what I think of AAO, but having constant BU levels of +dmg for next to no cost (0.21/sec) seems fairly overpowered to me.
Sure, it would annoy me some to see it nerfed, but at least I won't have to rework my build like I had to with the BotZ rebalance. SD would still be very powerful, even with the "nerfs".
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I did read what you said. I didn't go into any sort of detail based upon how you've responded to Umbral's posts, because you ignore some data points in order for your own to hold water. As an example, your prior post's argument started with throwing out the fact that Blasters have more AoEs. So, a balance discussion should not include all relevant information? This alone solidifies my decision to not argue with you, because it will only frustrate me.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Read what I said. Specifically the blaster paper AOE advantage is undercut by other limitations. I didn't say can't I said they don't get as much out of them. When you start talking about having to pull and team to use them effectively, it only reinforces the point.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
When he said pull, I am pretty sure he was talking pulling an entire spawn in order to gather them up, much as you were saying a scrapper would do in order to cause spawn collapse.
Teaming is not actually seen as a disadvantage by most people. Therefore most people don't consider the fact that you may need a team as a limitation, since they were going to have a team anyway. |
Hazard zones and x4 mission settings pretty much comprise the solo-leveling method for my blasters and the AoEs make it both a survivable experience as well as good XP/hour. On the flip side, when I run one of my Scrappers and my wife or friends play Blasters, which happens quite frequently, I run in and get aggro, gather mobs, and the blasters tear them apart quickly while I focus on hard targets/mezzers. Nothing lives very long, and the Blasters are generally quite safe. Either way, I don't see a Blaster's AoEs as being difficult to employ effectively, and I certainly don't see them as worthy of being "factored out".
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Umbral has simply stated his position as fact without justifying it. He then goes on to use assumptions that further justify his position. Just looking at his setpoint he is working with a fully saturated AAO all the time. My position is that shield defense has a tremendous ability to benefit from large amounts of inf spent on it that sr doesn't match|
Originally Posted by Gaidin
I did read what you said. I didn't go into any sort of detail based upon how you've responded to Umbral's posts, because you ignore some data points in order for your own to hold water. As an example, your prior post's argument started with throwing out the fact that Blasters have more AoEs. So, a balance discussion should not include all relevant information? This alone solidifies my decision to not argue with you, because it will only frustrate me.
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| As to my reference to teaming and pulling, I was just listing examples of how a Blaster's AoEs are indeed both usable and should not be discounted when compared with ST damage. |
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| Hazard zones and x4 mission settings pretty much comprise the solo-leveling method for my blasters and the AoEs make it both a survivable experience as well as good XP/hour. On the flip side, when I run one of my Scrappers and my wife or friends play Blasters, which happens quite frequently, I run in and get aggro, gather mobs, and the blasters tear them apart quickly while I focus on hard targets/mezzers. Nothing lives very long, and the Blasters are generally quite safe. Either way, I don't see a Blaster's AoEs as being difficult to employ effectively, and I certainly don't see them as worthy of being "factored out". |
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I have very little idea what the setpoint of normal is. I have been on teams where mine has been the only buffbar showing insps and the dead people have full insp trays. In beta there were people that thought it laughable that I could keep my brute near the damage cap solo, turns out they hadn't integrated the concept of using macros to make insps into their play.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Look, I admit that inspiration use is a slippery slope. But that doesn't mean that inspiration use is irrelevant to a balance discussion or to the capabilities of a set in normal use. Normal use of inspirations is relevant to a discussion of the set in normal use. Does that not make sense?
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Right. Because the data points I've told everyone to look at have been with 10 targets in range and not 5 targets in range, right? Because I've only ever been looking at SD's performance in top end IO situations and never with only SOs, right? Seriously, look at what I've actually said before you try to put words in my mouth. At SO grade performance, SD is simply stronger because it kills faster and is just as survivable (lower survivability is more than compensated for with shorter exposure to danger thanks to higher damage output).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Umbral has simply stated his position as fact without justifying it. He then goes on to use assumptions that further justify his position. Just looking at his setpoint he is working with a fully saturated AAO all the time. My position is that shield defense has a tremendous ability to benefit from large amounts of inf spent on it that sr doesn't match
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Even more amusingly, I provided all of the tools necessary (and instructions as to how to use those tools as well) to demonstrate that SD is more powerful than all of the other sets when the offensive aspects are actually accounted for (something that you refused to do). I already fulfilled my burden of proof , as I see it (and everyone else except for you), especially since everyone that actually knows the game seems to agree with me while you still seems to be clinging to the argument that SD is somehow only usable when you spend large amounts of inf on it (which isn't even true if you actually look at things empirically).
Again I really think we should continue with figuring out how to balance out Shield Defense as well as Super Reflexes and less focusing on petty arguing on any other AT. This conversation should be about SR and Shield Defense. Someone brought up to buff Elude almost like MoG, I think that would go a long way into helping SR. I also think they should switch the order Evasion and Lucky in order to really help out SRs large AoE hole.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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The reorder has been called since when I started in I2 so I am not going to hold my breath on that ever happening.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Again I really think we should continue with figuring out how to balance out Shield Defense as well as Super Reflexes and less focusing on petty arguing on any other AT. This conversation should be about SR and Shield Defense. Someone brought up to buff Elude almost like MoG, I think that would go a long way into helping SR. I also think they should switch the order Evasion and Lucky in order to really help out SRs large AoE hole.
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It is simple and I had suggested it in the past to drop the AAO cap now the break point it where does it get balanced what is the magical #% of damage buff. I am not the expert on that part I waiting for the better numbers guys then me to help with that part.
12.5 + 7% * x= y
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
I think this is the only board I have ever been on where people playing a particular set step forward and say that something isn't right and their own set is too powerful.
If /Shields is going to be adjusted again right after the Shield Charge nerf then I would rather see a simple change to the maximum targets that will affect AAOs to the top end isn't quite as abusive rather than some of the other nerfs.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
As for SR, I'd really like to be able to slot resistance sets someplace for obvious reasons; either in Quickness to boost slow resistance or in the passives to boost the scaling resists.
As for actually changing power order, I don't think you'll see it or if you do it will be very rare. I suspect the devs have a good solution about what to do with slotted IOs if they change the order of powers. They would have to unslot those somehow, and then deal with characters who log off with a full enhancement tray before the patch. My guess is that the IO removal also has to be hand programmed.
Although perhaps in the case of Lucky and Evasion they could just give a free respec and leave things slotted as is since both are defense powers, but combining powers or adding new powers is probably a giant pain.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I like the idea of boosting slow resist. You don't feel very super-reflexy when you are moving like Captain Molasses
It would also make it easier to skip boxing-tough, which seems almost mandatory now due to the +3% defense unique.
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Figure out some way to give Scrappers the Brute power progression order. Since the most annoying part of the set is the AOE defense coming in so late.
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Figure out some way to make elude useful. Add resistance, or regen, +damage or +recharge, or something. A teir 9 "god mode" being the most skipable power is stupid.
Just throwing this out there: Can Scrapper's AAO Not generate more aggro than my Elec Tanker's Taunt Aura?
Shields a great set, it really just needs to be toned down.
Also, can SR's Elude give free placate? that would be neat.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Well it is the board with what essentially comes down to a "who can kill faster" thread. When you're making those kinds of comparisons it's pretty obvious where the outliers are.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I think this is the only board I have ever been on where people playing a particular set step forward and say that something isn't right and their own set is too powerful.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
As for actually changing power order, I don't think you'll see it or if you do it will be very rare. I suspect the devs have a good solution about what to do with slotted IOs if they change the order of powers. They would have to unslot those somehow, and then deal with characters who log off with a full enhancement tray before the patch. My guess is that the IO removal also has to be hand programmed.
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Just throwing this out there: Can Scrapper's AAO Not generate more aggro than my Elec Tanker's Taunt Aura?
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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So you don't think you can even make a reasonable guess as to which of these alternatives is most likely representative of normal inspiration use?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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- No inspiration use
- Some use of dropped inspirations as appropriate to the situation
- Farming kora fruit and mailing inspirations to your no to low defense toons to stack purples as required to soft cap
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I did not read the whole thread, but just wanted to post my 2 cents and answer the OP question, from my subjective perspective and experience.
I'm having a hard time figuring out a satisfying IO build on my level 50 Claws/SR I really enjoy playing, even if concept wise it's one of my favorite character ever. On mid-expensive builds (not needing any purple or pvp IO for that purpose), I usually manage to get more survivability in most situations from my other scrappers, and with also more room to choose my secondary powers (SR requires to take pretty much everything but Elude).
If this toon was to remake I would not choose /SR as a secondary, my mids-fu and the set don't get along very well