Quote:
The problem isn't AAOs theme. The problem is AAO's numbers. AAO simply allows you to get too much +dam to equate to its "lower survivability". The fact that you're already killing things 20-30% faster just because you're in melee with them already means that you don't need as much survivability. The +dam buff is honestly what needs to be reigned in in order to make almost any other set out there a truly viable option in the endgame (for Scrappers; Brute SD is a joke because of +dam dilution and Tankers don't really get much out of SD in the endgame, considering that they're designed around taking hits).|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I would hope they leave AAO as is. Its a great idea that is shared by two other sets to have a toggle that scales with enemies in range.
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I don't really care how it's done as long as the end result is that AAO can't maintain perma-BU +dam levels just because it's surrounded. I doubt the target cap would get diminished (since the -dam is also a useful attribute and it's the taunt aura regardless), so the best solution is likely to simply reduce the size of the +dam buff itself (I would leave the "base" +dam alone and reduce the stacking buff to only 3% so that it gives you 15.5% with a single target and caps at 42.5% with 10).
Yep SR is totally destroyed by Shield charge and resistance builds. I mean it cant have a build that has perma hasten, perma build up levels of damage buff, 4+ end recovery/sec, both massive single target and aoe damage,regenerates 41 hps/sec all the while being more than softcapped with defense debuff resistance and isn't even fully optimized.
Very threatened by AAO here.
{/end sarcasm}
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite
Level 1: Focused Fighting
Level 2: Focused Senses
Level 4: Shadow Maul
Level 6: Agile
Level 8: Siphon Life
Level 10: Practiced Brawler
Level 12: Boxing
Level 14: Tough
Level 16: Dodge
Level 18: Dark Consumption
Level 20: Quickness
Level 22: Weave
Level 24: Hasten
Level 26: Soul Drain
Level 28: Lucky
Level 30: Swift
Level 32: Midnight Grasp
Level 35: Evasion
Level 38: Health
Level 41: Char
Level 44: Fire Blast
Level 47: Fire Ball
Level 49: Combat Jumping
------------
Level 1: Brawl
Level 1: Sprint
Level 2: Rest
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Ninja Run
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Set Bonus Totals:
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Quote:
perma hasten - So, what benefits does this provide you? You get to do the top chain (so can DM/SD). You get Soul Drain up a little more often than DM/SD (loses by a mile to Against All Odds). You get to spam Siphon Life a little faster (usually attack chain limited unless you want to gut punch your damage output). And you get to use Dark Consumption a little more often. OK, you got me there. You have slightly better endurance recovery than the equivalent DM/SD. OK, yeah, but woo.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Yep SR is totally destroyed by Shield charge and resistance builds. I mean it cant have a build that has perma hasten, perma build up levels of damage buff, 4+ end recovery/sec, both massive single target and aoe damage,regenerates 41 hps/sec all the while being more than softcapped with defense debuff resistance and isn't even fully optimized.
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perma build up levels of damage buff - DM/SD has Soul Drain too, even if it's not up quite as often. And Against All Odds is blowing you away.
both massive single target and aoe damage - not nearly as much as DM/SD
regenerates 41 hps/sec - You must be including Siphon Life here? Yeah, DM/SD gets that power too.
more than softcapped - ditto DM/SD
softcapped with defense debuff resistance - ditto DM/SD with the right build
Nobody's saying that DM/SR is bad. Nobody is saying it isn't good enough. I have one myself, and it's an excellent combination. But I DM/SD is BETTER than DM/SR in almost every way. Giving a list of DM/SR's good points, when almost all of those good points are equaled or bettered by DM/SD, doesn't support your argument, assuming you're arguing that DM/SR is at least as good as DM/SD. But if all you were saying was "I don't feel threatened by Shield Defense", well, nobody can argue with that, since it's just how you feel.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Before we talking about nerfing the set into the ground (hyperbole, I know!), let's talk about getting Claws/Spines/Katana/Dual Blades working with the set first.
Sure DM/SD is better than DM/SR in a lot of ways, but Spines/SR Claws/SR katana/SR and DB/SR are all better than their shield equivalents by an infinite margin.
Honestly it's been touched on before, but I feel the drawback of the set isn't in numbers, it's in accessibility.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
mmmm, claws/sd
Softcapped, doublestacked followup, saturated AAO, spin, eviscerate, shieldcharge...
*sigh*
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
mmmm, claws/sd
Softcapped, doublestacked followup, saturated AAO, spin, eviscerate, shieldcharge... *sigh* |
The first SD I wanted to make was a claws/sd. I admit it, I shed a tear when I realized it could not be done...
Now I'm sure I'll be reitterating a lot of what has been said, so forgive. But I feel SR has been and still is a solid set. I think I've played every combination of /SR on both scrappers and brutes with the exception of Super Strength/SR on a brute (which is next for GR XD).
Super Reflexes has 2 solid things going for it when it comes to IOs. It's easy to not only soft-cap positional defense but go high enough that even with a defense debuff, you remain still at soft-cap. And second is it is easy to soft-cap defense rather inexpensively allowing you room to work on other bonuses such as damage and accuracy. And if you're willing to shell out the money, then you can easily get perma-hasten or with only a few seconds gap without sacrificing your soft-capped defense with most primary sets.
I think my strongest scrapper in terms of pve team play (such as on AV mishes or TFs) is my Dual Blades/SR. I have 3 separate IO builds for it. The first is a concept [no travel power] on Virtue, 1 on Freedom that is a no holds barred 51%+ defense and near perma-hasten (3.2 sec gap) and 1 on Justice that was frugally built and is the primary toon I play as my go-to scrapper. End is never an issue with any of these builds. On the cheap build took most of the DB powers and all but Elude from SR. Some people might think "How could you not take the Tier 9?", but with the build I have, I have no need for it and instead took Conserve Power from Body Mastery on the rare occasion I'm in an extended AV fight or high end draining foes, so I never bottom out, running all toggles and Practiced Brawler on auto (which is perma without hasten and only 1 enh of IO Rech Redux). I can easily handle "farm type" mobs at +3 for a group of 8 like the old demon farm or any of the countless other old favorites, though it was never made to do that. Initially the frugal build was the first db/sr build I did simply to solo Generals and their mobs on ITFs. I get enough resistance to smash/lethal from Tough and regen off my IO bonuses that anytime I do get hit, I'm more than able to recover without using Insps.
I think /SR is still more than a viable set, though I would agree it could use a few tweaks to bring back up to the fore-front that is held. And I think DB/SR is a great combo for a scrapper.
The Infamous Kytherion Arx! (@Streethawk)
Founder of Femme Triumph & Battle Chasers
Kytheria Aurelia - Vengeance Doll - Barricade Buster
Streethawk - Arc-Angel - Quantum Soldier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werner
I should probably admit that while I talked about what the devs probably intended, I also couldn't give a flying rats *** what the devs intended. I care how enjoyable the game is.
Perhaps what I should have said instead was something like "I think this game would be more fun if the answer for survivability wasn't almost ALWAYS to add more defense. I think more variety of solutions would be nice, such as how Regeneration survivability benefits some from defense, but more from huge recharge. I would like to see something like Dark Armor be just as solid if you build it for resistance and healing, so that the sets have more variety in the end game. I think variety is good." It just so happens that I think this sort of variety is what the devs intended, so I used that as a poor sort of shorthand. It's more clear if I spell things out, though, and doesn't rely on a point that I think is irrelevant - what the devs intended. |
How enjoyable the game is - YES, that is what the devs should focus on. People ENJOY SD, so stop messing with it, lol. Fix the sets that people do not enjoy. The seem to be trying to do that with fire armor, good. I agree that resist/heal sets need some love - but the answer isn't ruining what many players enjoy doing, which is building for defense, the answer is in creating options to build for resist/heal builds that offer similar survivability.
Weakening and dumbing down the sets people enjoy playing to match the sets people don't enjoy playing does nothing but piss off players and lose customers. As much as the nerf crowd cries overpowered or how game breaking stuff is, theres nothing in this game that is so out of wack that it's ruining the game.
And as has been mentioned, if something is overperforming a bit, it's just as easy to tweak enemies to compensate. Take defense for example. Softcapping makes you very tough, MOST of the time. There are things in this game that makes softcap defense pretty much meaningless - def debuffs and plus to hit. Defense builds doing too well? Just add more to hit buffs and def debuffs. When I see a bunch of nemesis missions in my future, I put my SD away and grab my WP. Of course if you do that too much then you end up gimping the set/builds that were doing too well.
People enjoy SD, leave it alone. WP is a fan favorite for its nice mix of survivability and end tricks, good to go there. Inv just got some recent buffs, and with its mix of res/def, it's doing pretty nicely. DA probably has the biggest mix of tricks and is the most diverse set, and while not incredibly popular with the masses, those familiar with it know how ridiculously good it can be, and how diverse it is in terms of what you want it to do. Regen is a fun set because it's by far the most active and engaging set, and the best set for pvp by far. Elec is a nice mix of offense and defensive abilities with a great end recovery power. SR is really the only set that could use a bit of tweaking in my opinion, to make it more fun to level up, and to give it something to compete with the other sets in top end io'd out builds.
Quote:
Many people enjoy many sets however there is nothing currently in the game that can make something as boring as shield can. Do missions with 2+ shield scrappers and good luck being able to actually use any of your powers, you are basically just along for the ride....not fun, kind of like were tanks were pre ED in terms of excitement.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
How enjoyable the game is - YES, that is what the devs should focus on. People ENJOY SD, so stop messing with it, lol. .
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Quote:
Actually what is being said repeatedly in this thread is that SR is worthless because of SD. Matter of fact the title "In the Age of IO's, is SR obsolete?" is a pointed way of trying to say just that and badly disguising it as a question. Here's a better question "In the Age of Scrappers that can layer defense and resistance on top of each other have a self heal and outdamage almost all blaster combination's are blasters obsolete ?". See both of those aren't questions so much as manifestos.|
Originally Posted by Werner
perma hasten - So, what benefits does this provide you? You get to do the top chain (so can DM/SD). You get Soul Drain up a little more often than DM/SD (loses by a mile to Against All Odds). You get to spam Siphon Life a little faster (usually attack chain limited unless you want to gut punch your damage output). And you get to use Dark Consumption a little more often. OK, you got me there. You have slightly better endurance recovery than the equivalent DM/SD. OK, yeah, but woo.
perma build up levels of damage buff - DM/SD has Soul Drain too, even if it's not up quite as often. And Against All Odds is blowing you away. both massive single target and aoe damage - not nearly as much as DM/SD regenerates 41 hps/sec - You must be including Siphon Life here? Yeah, DM/SD gets that power too. more than softcapped - ditto DM/SD softcapped with defense debuff resistance - ditto DM/SD with the right build Nobody's saying that DM/SR is bad. Nobody is saying it isn't good enough. I have one myself, and it's an excellent combination. But I DM/SD is BETTER than DM/SR in almost every way. Giving a list of DM/SR's good points, when almost all of those good points are equaled or bettered by DM/SD, doesn't support your argument, assuming you're arguing that DM/SR is at least as good as DM/SD. But if all you were saying was "I don't feel threatened by Shield Defense", well, nobody can argue with that, since it's just how you feel. |
Anyway the unasked or possibly disregarded part of this is just how much effort does it take to make SD surpass SR, how does SR compare at comparable levels of expense ? As I said way back in this thread SD's greatest power is the power to absorb nearly limitless amounts of INF. But back to your comparisons re recharge and the ability to spam siphon life fast unless you are in a situation where you have little to no risk of death the ability to trade damage for survivability is pretty important.
Quote:
are they? i must have missed that meeting. =(|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Nethergoat, I'd much rather see Castle correct the mistake where IOs are granting vastly more defense than they should.
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that would work too, but hopefully they leave it along long enough for me to get my ar/dev kitted out for the range softcap.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
If you do that at all you end up gimping everybody who hasn't poured a billion inf into their toon, or who isn't melee. You start giving everything to-hit buffs, you not only make life more difficult for the softcapped Scrappers, you make it more difficult for the Blaster who pops a purple to get through a tough fight, and the team bubbler gets to feel useless.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
And as has been mentioned, if something is overperforming a bit, it's just as easy to tweak enemies to compensate. Take defense for example. Softcapping makes you very tough, MOST of the time. There are things in this game that makes softcap defense pretty much meaningless - def debuffs and plus to hit. Defense builds doing too well? Just add more to hit buffs and def debuffs. When I see a bunch of nemesis missions in my future, I put my SD away and grab my WP. Of course if you do that too much then you end up gimping the set/builds that were doing too well.
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We all had fun playing with our overpowered Shield Charge, now get over it.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Super Reflexes has always been a "one-trick" pony. Granted that one thing it does, it does better than everyone else. The power that IOs brought was to add to other sets the ability to "layer" their forms of survival with SR's trick. Even Shields has layering that puts SR to shame and provides its Defense "trick" with considerably fewer power picks.
If the Devs really want to help SR out they should look at adding layers to SR's survival (not dependant on being hurt) and consider giving the "basics" of SR with fewer power picks and earlier in their career.
Nerfing Shields even more is not the right choice. Instead of "pushing" people away from one set, you should "draw" their attention to another.
Quote:
I can understand your viewpoint on this Umbral, and am not diasgreeing with your numbers. But I have always considered the extra damage as a unique "layer" of survival for Shields that replaces "healing", "regen", or "utility" powers. Overall, I think that if you remove SC from the equation, AAO makes much more sense and is not overpowered. AAO + BU + SC is such an obvious thing, that it actually overshadows the characters other attack powers. Since they probably will not turn SC into a "hurl" type power like I want, I guess we are kinda stuck with the +damage concerns for the set.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem isn't AAOs theme. The problem is AAO's numbers. AAO simply allows you to get too much +dam to equate to its "lower survivability". The fact that you're already killing things 20-30% faster just because you're in melee with them already means that you don't need as much survivability. The +dam buff is honestly what needs to be reigned in in order to make almost any other set out there a truly viable option in the endgame (for Scrappers; Brute SD is a joke because of +dam dilution and Tankers don't really get much out of SD in the endgame, considering that they're designed around taking hits).
I don't really care how it's done as long as the end result is that AAO can't maintain perma-BU +dam levels just because it's surrounded. I doubt the target cap would get diminished (since the -dam is also a useful attribute and it's the taunt aura regardless), so the best solution is likely to simply reduce the size of the +dam buff itself (I would leave the "base" +dam alone and reduce the stacking buff to only 3% so that it gives you 15.5% with a single target and caps at 42.5% with 10). |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
We're not stuck with AAO's overpowered status. You could cut the bonus in half and it would still be a "unique "layer" of survival for Shields that replaces "healing", "regen", or "utility" powers."
The problem as it stands now is that you get a massive damage buff that can be easily leveraged with minions that costs little end and has no downside on top of having layered mitigation that can be heavily buffed.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Bill Z,|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
We're not stuck with AAO's overpowered status. You could cut the bonus in half and it would still be a "unique "layer" of survival for Shields that replaces "healing", "regen", or "utility" powers."
The problem as it stands now is that you get a massive damage buff that can be easily leveraged with minions that costs little end and has no downside on top of having layered mitigation that can be heavily buffed. |
I sense that you are displeased by my comments. So let me try to rephrase it.
What I said was that I was NOT in disagreement with Umbral's assessment. His numbers are probably just fine.
What I really was trying to say was that if Shield Charge had never existed, the concerns over the +damage from this powerset would be alot less. We could very well still be discussing the numbers for AAO, but the mere existence of SC has "skewed" everyones perception and its spilling over to AAO. I can appreciate trying to balance out the set, and have absolutely NO problem with "nerfing" Shield Charge. I just dont want this "nerfage" to get out of hand and actually effect a power that (I believe) is a "core" survival tool for the set.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I don't know if I can agree with that as the angle I'm viewing AAO from is its use against hard targets. The results of which you can see in the rikti pylon thread. No one is using shield charge during those runs.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I have not spent much time on that thread, but just went thru the first 10 pages to see what you mean.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't know if I can agree with that as the angle I'm viewing AAO from is its use against hard targets. The results of which you can see in the rikti pylon thread. No one is using shield charge during those runs.
|
There is a definite trend there. So again, I am not saying that AAO's numbers are perfect, just that I would prefer they "refrain" from more nerfs to the set.
It is also true that the times posted by different scrappers are more a testament to their varied amounts of recharge, baseline dps, attack chains etc...
You made a comparitve analysis showing how your claws scrapper would go from 216 dps to 256 (iirc). Thats pretty significant. How would more recharge from SR sit with you as a way to balance SR against Shields? Or is BillZ already at the recharge cap?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
I'm not in the camp that thinks all other sets should be buffed up to the level of the outliers. For me, SD is an outlier. It provides too much damage on top of the mitigation it provides. For comparison sake, FA also provides considerable damage output, but its mitigation is pathetic.| How would more recharge from SR sit with you as a way to balance SR against Shields? |
Something will have to give when it comes to SD. Either the mitigation will have to be reduced or the buff from AAO will need to be.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Or both. Get rid of the ability to cap DDR (so that the set actually has to worry about something that SR doesn't) and reduce the +dam capabilities of AAO to levels that aren't perma-BU. Bam. Set is actually balanced against the existing sets in both top end and normal tier play.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Something will have to give when it comes to SD. Either the mitigation will have to be reduced or the buff from AAO will need to be.
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Quote:
It's been my experience with two high end scrapper builds(DM/SR and FM/SD) that /SD outperforms /SR in every way. That doesn't make /SR obsolete IMO, I still enjoy playing my DM/SR more despite the shielder being more powerful(that wouldn't change if it was DM/SD instead of FM/SD either).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually what is being said repeatedly in this thread is that SR is worthless because of SD. Matter of fact the title "In the Age of IO's, is SR obsolete?" is a pointed way of trying to say just that and badly disguising it as a question. Here's a better question "In the Age of Scrappers that can layer defense and resistance on top of each other have a self heal and outdamage almost all blaster combination's are blasters obsolete ?". See both of those aren't questions so much as manifestos.
Anyway the unasked or possibly disregarded part of this is just how much effort does it take to make SD surpass SR, how does SR compare at comparable levels of expense ? As I said way back in this thread SD's greatest power is the power to absorb nearly limitless amounts of INF. But back to your comparisons re recharge and the ability to spam siphon life fast unless you are in a situation where you have little to no risk of death the ability to trade damage for survivability is pretty important. |
Also, if you're gonna use a build as an example of how great DM/SR can be, you should post a better one. Posting sub par multi billion influence builds does not support your argument. That would be painful to play without a ton of blues inspirations or a power like Heat Loss.
edit: At some point in this thread there was a mini discussion about improving Elude. What I would like to see is it changed to something similar to Moment of Glory. Maybe instead of the huge defense bonus put it to something like 15%, keep the resist in the 70% range, and add in a heal or big regen buff. A power like that I would fit into my build somehow.
Quote:
I'd though of suggesting it becoming like MoG in both duration and effect, but due to the fact that /SR usually needs sustained assistance when it starts to fail, a longer duration T9 would be more beneficial. |
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
edit: At some point in this thread there was a mini discussion about improving Elude. What I would like to see is it changed to something similar to Moment of Glory. Maybe instead of the huge defense bonus put it to something like 15%, keep the resist in the 70% range, and add in a heal or big regen buff. A power like that I would fit into my build somehow.
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Thematically, it would be easy to say that the power escalates the body's reflexes and restorative processes so greatly that you heal damage and recover endurance more quickly(+regen/+recovery), while your increased speed allows you to block incoming attacks without taking ful damage(+resists). Instead of adding more +recharge to Quickness, they could add a small modifier to the T9 as well.
I'm ok with that as well.
Quote:
Drive-by response. |
Originally Posted by Cheeze_Head
I think the subject speaks for itself but I suppose I'll explain a bit more.
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Every armour set does what SR does, which is, avoid dying. It's just a matter of your preferred method to do that.
Quote:
Hmmm...seeing as how I find Blasters tend to clear rooms of the riff raff faster than a scrapper (there are exceptions to that on both ATs). I'd say no.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually what is being said repeatedly in this thread is that SR is worthless because of SD. Matter of fact the title "In the Age of IO's, is SR obsolete?" is a pointed way of trying to say just that and badly disguising it as a question. Here's a better question "In the Age of Scrappers that can layer defense and resistance on top of each other have a self heal and outdamage almost all blaster combination's are blasters obsolete ?". See both of those aren't questions so much as manifestos.
Anyway the unasked or possibly disregarded part of this is just how much effort does it take to make SD surpass SR, how does SR compare at comparable levels of expense ? As I said way back in this thread SD's greatest power is the power to absorb nearly limitless amounts of INF. But back to your comparisons re recharge and the ability to spam siphon life fast unless you are in a situation where you have little to no risk of death the ability to trade damage for survivability is pretty important. |
Also, while I love playing Scrappers more, I feel I bring more to a team with my DP/Mental than most scrapper builds, due to the presense of -Regen in /MM. Mind you, I do lots of things that take me up against AVs and GMs, sooo...the -Regen comes in handy, and I notice the difference when teamed.
My scrappers however are way more survivable, and dont tend to need the support of the blaster.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I love my /SR scrapper, his defense is above the softcap and it never drops due to his DDR. His build cost me about 100 million inf all told, to get to the same levels of defence on my shield scrapper will cost a lot more.
I don't find that SR underperforms in any way, it's quite amusing teaming with someone boasting about their softcapped defence who then gets it debuffed to oblivion without knowing why they just died. I was on a 8 man RWZ team, the brute (think he was elec) died a few times before saying he was fed up of being shown up by a scrapper and asked me to herd mobs so he could nuke em.
SR is a great set, it stands on its own, I don't care if others get def through IOs... I get to keep my defence