Come on peeps!!!
Without shields, SR would still be my go to for the crazy stuff.... heck still is!!! Silly fire/shield been sitting there for months untouched
But then again its hard to come up with a proper Claws/Shield build...
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Nahh, it was quite easy to do in Mids. And it was glorious. Too bad BAB won't let me do it in game. C'mon, BAB, just gimme a shield with some spikes on the front edge...
| But then again its hard to come up with a proper Claws/Shield build... |
Be well, people of CoH.
And that's probably the only combo I see worthy of all those PvP IO's
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I actually have a Claws/Shield build already made in Mid's if you want to see it. I can show you how to modify mid's in order to let you make a Claws, Katana, and Spines/Shield build. Its disgustingly awesome too
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Come on peeps!!!
Without shields, SR would still be my go to for the crazy stuff.... heck still is!!! Silly fire/shield been sitting there for months untouched But then again its hard to come up with a proper Claws/Shield build... |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Or cover SR's ranged and aoe defense in one toggle and give SR a new, useful power. This could fix any balance gaps with other sets, allow SR to get survivable levels of all around defense earlier, lower end costs and make the set more flexible whereas right now you pretty much need every power outside of elude and quickness.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Again I really think we should continue with figuring out how to balance out Shield Defense as well as Super Reflexes and less focusing on petty arguing on any other AT. This conversation should be about SR and Shield Defense. Someone brought up to buff Elude almost like MoG, I think that would go a long way into helping SR. I also think they should switch the order Evasion and Lucky in order to really help out SRs large AoE hole.
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I would sooner take away Practiced Brawler and add the mez resistances to one of the three toggles. Having a click mez protection is not really beneficial in SR's case anymore, since toggles don't drop if you get mez'd. Turn Practiced Brawler into something else--perhaps a small amount of damage done to every opponent of which you dodge via your defenses (not a natural miss--I think internally it calculates when you dodge from your defenses, as opposed to when they just miss from the natural 50/50, doesn't it?) while it's active. of course, that's more effective for brutes than scrappers, since they have a taunt aura..
In terms of AAO, for once I actually agree with castle when he said that AAO is fine as is.
Looking at the rikti pylon situation, where SD's are herding groups of monkeys or other minor enemies around them to saturate aao, one player outdid many of them on a db/elec at 262 dps. That out-dps'd even fire and dm sds with saturated AAO. So either db or elec is overpowered (and I certainly would not argue that), or fire isn't doing enough damage (and I wouldn't argue that either), or people are overexaggerating how good AAO is and underestimating how good some other sets can add dps to a build.
I think most people are gravitating towards sets that are easy to build defense with, and among the offensive secondaries, SD is obviously the one starting off with the best defense. The answer is to improve options for building resist/heal sets for optimum builds, not tearing down defense sets. If it was as easy to build top end toons with res/heal sets as it is def sets, I think you'd see a lot more examples of high dps output with elec, da and especially now with the fa changes, just like you see with the db/elec in the pylon thread.
And the reason I suggest building up the res/heal sets and not tearing down the defense sets is this - in terms of the hardest challenges in the game, you'll hear a LOT more instances of people complaining of being ridiculously 'squishy' on a res/heal set than you'll hear complaints about things being 'too easy' on a defense set. In other words, there's plenty of 'kryptonite' for even the best defense based 'uber toons', but way too much kryptonite for similar toons based on res/heals. Res/heal toons probably feel like they're stuck in a bad episode of smallville where even their pen ink is made from meteor juice...
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While I agree, that lack of toggle dropping has made click mez resistance a bit harder, have you thought about instead, trying to get the recharge down, so it's still perma once you take into account SOs and exemping.|
Originally Posted by Stolid
I would sooner take away Practiced Brawler and add the mez resistances to one of the three toggles. Having a click mez protection is not really beneficial in SR's case anymore, since toggles don't drop if you get mez'd. Turn Practiced Brawler into something else--perhaps a small amount of damage done to every opponent of which you dodge via your defenses (not a natural miss--I think internally it calculates when you dodge from your defenses, as opposed to when they just miss from the natural 50/50, doesn't it?) while it's active. of course, that's more effective for brutes than scrappers, since they have a taunt aura..
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Though I wouldn't mind AOE/Range Defense combined into one, and then having the level 35 power becoming a passive Adrenaline Boost!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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This is very true for me.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
....I think most people are gravitating towards sets that are easy to build defense with, and among the offensive secondaries, SD is obviously the one starting off with the best defense. The answer is to improve options for building resist/heal sets for optimum builds, not tearing down defense sets. If it was as easy to build top end toons with res/heal sets as it is def sets, I think you'd see a lot more examples of high dps output with elec, da and especially now with the fa changes, just like you see with the db/elec in the pylon thread....
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Besides the whole fact that getting from 1-50 and getting a defense toon IOed out are completely different things. What SD (and SR) can do at the top end kinda reminds me of the way controllers were pre-containment. Struggle for 31+ levels and then your character suddenly turns into a solo-powerhouse with the addition of one power.
I am not going to argue whether SD needs more changes, because my opinion is based more on in-game observations rather than "numerical analysis" and "end-game" Pylon performance. I DO, however, believe (and which was the original subject of this thread) that SR still needs to be looked at. The powerset is good, but is not as interesting and flexible as other powersets. It only does ONE thing and requires nearly all of the 9 powers to do that ONE thing.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Bah, you've got it all wrong. The thread is only about /SR vs. the Age of IO's. /Shield isn't a part of the dicussion material except in a tangental sort of way, right? |
Originally Posted by Santorican
Again I really think we should continue with figuring out how to balance out Shield Defense as well as Super Reflexes and less focusing on petty arguing on any other AT. This conversation should be about SR and Shield Defense.
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What kind of scrapper struggles for 30/50 levels?
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Originally Posted by Biospark
What SD (and SR) can do at the top end kinda reminds me of the way controllers were pre-containment. Struggle for 31+ levels and then your character suddenly turns into a solo-powerhouse with the addition of one power.
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Culex's resistance guide
What I meant was that Defense-based characters are late-blooming and significantly change after getting all the pieces of their defense together and IOed out. The comparison to controllers was simply a frame of comparison between "early-game" versus "end-game".
Scrappers have it pretty good in this game. There isn't a single scrapper that I have played that didn't feel like "easy-mode" by the early 20s. Although my Shields and SR scrappers were only shadows of what was to come at those levels.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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perhaps but there are many +recovery powers what about a auto/power that provides end reduction to powers based on the number of foes around them.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
While I agree, that lack of toggle dropping has made click mez resistance a bit harder, have you thought about instead, trying to get the recharge down, so it's still perma once you take into account SOs and exemping.
Though I wouldn't mind AOE/Range Defense combined into one, and then having the level 35 power becoming a passive Adrenaline Boost! |
Super Efficiency: Your mastery of extra ordinary reflexes manifests itself when surrounded by foes. The more foes surround you the more your heightened reflexes allow your attacks to increase in efficiency. Your attacks become a blurr and the enemy tires out faster unable to hit you.
The buff wouldnt be much like 20% end reduction with 10 foes in range and maybe a slight recovery debuff on them too. Brutes could have their taunt aura here too. A tohit debuff would be more thematic but perhaps a little too powerful. A damage debuff though would be nice and would help out the times when your scrapper/brute does get hit
My vote would be to combine the ranged/AoE toggles and give /SR 2 things.
Firstly, the Taunt aura that Brutes have (in Evasion, IIRC?).
Secondly, a new power that provides some kind of utility/self-buff. Either an enemy-scaling something like others have mentioned, (my personal favorite being a +rech toggle) or something else entirely.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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I don't think any enemy scaling mechanisms are really needed for */SR, mainly because enemy scaling powers generally go hand-in-hand. I also don't think that SR really needs all that much more: it's already got plenty of survivability going for it (assuming you took the Fighting pool).|
Originally Posted by Silas
My vote would be to combine the ranged/AoE toggles and give /SR 2 things.
Firstly, the Taunt aura that Brutes have (in Evasion, IIRC?). Secondly, a new power that provides some kind of utility/self-buff. Either an enemy-scaling something like others have mentioned, (my personal favorite being a +rech toggle) or something else entirely. |
The most I would do would probably be to give Quickness a bit of +recov (12.5%, just like Phys Perf) or +end (5%, like the new PPP power) to offset the fact that Quickness has always seemed a bit weak when compared to other +rech powers (and the fact that +rech actually decreases endurance sustainability by increasing your potential endurance consumption). If the ranged and AoE toggles were fused an a new power was needed (something I highly doubt will happen simply because you have to deal with the problems of how to deal with people that are currently using the power that you're "destroying"), I would probably add a passive that provides a bit of +regen (35%) and +res (5% all) to increase sustainability, provide some additional IO slotting options (heal and +def uniques), and bolster the scaling resists a bit (this could actually be added to Practiced Brawler in the current incarnation since it's now the only mez power I can think of that doesn't have some secondary functionality).
I would hesitate to support anything more than those changes because SR isn't an underperforming set compared to the Scrapper average. It's just adding a little bit of slot capability QoL and additional long sustainability that SR is relatively weak on compared to most other sets.
What about replacing SR's tier 9 with something that promotes psi def? Maybe 25% when slotted. Or would this be way overpowered?
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Well, every set has some kind of weakness pretty much built into it. Invuln's is psi of any kind. DA's is a endurance sustainability. SR's is non-positional psi. By providing SR with a power that allows it to completely circumvent that weakness is probably going to be broken since you're getting rid of the only thing the set really has to fear.
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Originally Posted by VeryBadDay
What about replacing SR's tier 9 with something that promotes psi def? Maybe 25% when slotted. Or would this be way overpowered?
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I just see a cottage rule problem getting in the way of that, which power would you change while keeping the cottage rule intact?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Or cover SR's ranged and aoe defense in one toggle and give SR a new, useful power. This could fix any balance gaps with other sets, allow SR to get survivable levels of all around defense earlier, lower end costs and make the set more flexible whereas right now you pretty much need every power outside of elude and quickness.
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
Bah, you've got it all wrong. The thread is only about /SR vs. the Age of IO's. /Shield isn't a part of the discussion material except in a tangential sort of way, right?
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I think re-jiggering the Tier 9, and getting some earlier AOE defense (come on, there's shotgun-using mobs at level 1) would pretty much fix SR. SR's not really flashy enough to justify being as late-blooming as it is, IMO.
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I can but you probably won't like the guesses. Most insp use I have seen in this game is combining them to make awakens after defeat, after that its greens and blues as Oh Sh** buttons.|
Originally Posted by Werner
So you don't think you can even make a reasonable guess as to which of these alternatives is most likely representative of normal inspiration use?
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Anyway the above is distracting, because in your example keeping the luck insps around is not compared to the value of having other inspirations around.
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Well, yes, obviously it's a mere distraction to talk about the value of using a particular inspiration if I don't have a chart of the opportunity costs for ALL inspirations. I have no such chart, so I'm sorry to have wasted your time.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Anyway the above is distracting, because in your example keeping the luck insps around is not compared to the value of having other inspirations around.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Hehe |
Originally Posted by Werner
Well, yes, obviously it's a mere distraction to talk about the value of using a particular inspiration if I don't have a chart of the opportunity costs for ALL inspirations. I have no such chart, so I'm sorry to have wasted your time.
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No worries Werner, appreciating inspiration use is a transitional skill in this game.
You can lead a horse to water.... well you know the rest.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Except horses can't talk, or type, so they can't go to the forums to complain that they're thirsty and can't afford to purple out their Warshades.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
You can lead a horse to water.... well you know the rest.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I sat down to casually purple out my warshade the other night... but then came to the conclusion that due to how little I bother playing him that it wasn't worth the time.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Except horses can't talk, or type, so they can't go to the forums to complain that they're thirsty and can't afford to purple out their Warshades.
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Be well, people of CoH.
- No inspiration use
- Some use of dropped inspirations as appropriate to the situation
- Farming kora fruit and mailing inspirations to your no to low defense toons to stack purples as required to soft cap
Or as seems more likely to me, you DO have a guess, but your point is that since we don't know for certain which is normal, that... well, to ignore inspirations is to assume #1, which we don't know for certain, so that's out. So how are we treating inspiration use? Or are you saying that there's simply no point to debate, because only the devs have the information necessary to make any reasonable comparison? In which case, this is just an agree to disagree situation. Have a nice day and all that.Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563