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Mhmm, and somewhat along those lines...|
Originally Posted by 3dent
Well, the sad truth abouyt software engineering is...
http://stevemcconnell.com/ieeesoftware/eic10.htm Tl;DR version: If it works and employees are happy, the methodology is right, no matter what exactly it is. If on the other hand, your product is best described by four-letter words and the staff looks like characters from Dilbert, you're in trouble, even if you're using what appears to be a modern methodology that successful companies use. |
I prefer to consider stuff like this the work done by artists.
Recognize it for what it is and either enjoy your appreciation or forget about it.
"It should be..." "It could be..." "I would..." can all go kiss my ****, as it doesn't have to be anything other than what they wanted it to be. Fortunately, they love the communal aspect of this particular brand of art (Not all mmorpg developers embrace that quite so much... I want name SOmE of those other companies though...) and that translates to the fans/audience/customers feeling more of a part of the art/entertainment.
The truth still is... that it is theirs and we can either enjoy it or find our enjoyment elsewhere. Enough people are enjoying this one now that they feel comfortable continuing to work on it and provide it.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Also the pads of their feet. |
Durakken goes to the zoology: Dogs use their tongue to get cool... They have no sweat glands. |
Dec out.
ya know, i recall having a discussion about how taunt works, and why it is not realistic, that no villain, no matter how stupid or drug addicted would continue attacking a target that they clearly were not going to have any noticeable effect on just because they keep making insulting comments. I keep getting proven wrong in real life.
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So do cats. It's kinda cute watching a kitty cat pant.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Dogs use their tongue to get cool... They have no sweat glands.
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Some people in a berserk rage do just that. Scary.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
ya know, i recall having a discussion about how taunt works, and why it is not realistic, that no villain, no matter how stupid or drug addicted would continue attacking a target that they clearly were not going to have any noticeable effect on just because they keep making insulting comments. I keep getting proven wrong in real life.
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But that is not what you are talking about lol.
Let's see... Right now, I have the two little "Conscience Nikky's" on my shoulder.
You know, the one saying "You shouldn't type anything, just leave this thread
alone" and the other one saying "It's the internet, so Everyone gets to talk
(whether they should or shouldn't), and you're an applications weenie, so
maybe you should"...
Since you're seeing this, you know I went with Nikky #2's advice 
As a 30 year Applications Weenie, I'll echo ZephyrWind's comment - it's never "right".
There's *always* something missed, something you'd have done differently (or
not at all), and something you had to do "because the Boss said so".
That's the nature of the biz.
As for GR, I (and probably they) have no real idea if it will be successful or not,
depending on how you define "success" (Features work, Customer retention/increase,
RoI, etc).
That said, I think its quite likely that it won't be ruinous either. The game has
a core group of customers, and this isn't likely to break that at all. It has the
chance of adding more to the fold - will it be enough to justify the costs and
or make money? Who knows?
If I personally have a complaint about the Devs, it's not in the area of development
(although I've voiced some gripes there too), but rather in the area of testing.
Frankly, (imho) their testing effectiveness borders on abysmal.
While, release dates, resource availability and costs are all big factors here,
in the end, the guy schleppin the code is the ultimately the guy who should
know for a certainty that what (s)he wrote works.
We have a pretty good history of situations where that clearly wasn't the case.
SO, for GR, I predict a couple of monumental bugs (that will get fixed the
first week or so, but should never have gotten out of Unit Test in the first
place), a bunch of minor-medium bugs that will get fixed by I18 or so, and
a bunch of stuff that will never be "quite right" in addition to the stuff that
used to work, but gets broken by the new code.
Will GR "fail"? Define "fail" - Will it break the franchise? Exceedingly doubtful.
Given that they're also merging markets and the item databases to make them
factionless during this release, I'm expecting a few very "interesting" weeks
post Aug. 17th (assuming it goes live when they say it will).
Destroy the Game? Naw, won't happen (at least not due to GR).
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Art wouldn't be possible without craftsmanship and technique. Developing an MMO without software engineering, coding, QA, etc. is no more possible than, say, playing a musical instrument with no idea of how it works. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Mhmm, and somewhat along those lines...
I prefer to consider stuff like this the work done by artists. Recognize it for what it is and either enjoy your appreciation or forget about it. |
Sure, there's much more to any computer game (or any program for that matter) than these craftlike aspects, but... No code, no game, no artistic value.
Whether or not someone finds such a low-level shop-talk interesting is another matter. Those who either work or worked in software business naturally tend to be ones most interested. But we aren't ignoring artistic aspect. We just want to learn how and why it's done the way it's done.
And perhaps it is worth pointing out:
Any good programmer will tell you that there is art to code, as well as functionality. Even without any reference to the actual output, without any maps, without any zones, code can be beautiful and art in its own right.
It's like any other work in language. You can write in English, but not all writing in English is art. You can write in C, but not all writing in C is art.
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Ooh, I didn't intend for my reply to be read as though it was countering interest in the inner workings and whatnot (Not my intention at all!).|
Originally Posted by 3dent
Art wouldn't be possible without craftsmanship and technique. Developing an MMO without software engineering, coding, QA, etc. is no more possible than, say, playing a musical instrument with no idea of how it works.
Sure, there's much more to any computer game (or any program for that matter) than these craftlike aspects, but... No code, no game, no artistic value. Whether or not someone finds such a low-level shop-talk interesting is another matter. Those who either work or worked in software business naturally tend to be ones most interested. But we aren't ignoring artistic aspect. We just want to learn how and why it's done the way it's done. |
Yeah, craftsmanship is something I value highly and I love learning about the hows, whats and whys.
That reply of mine was aimed squarely at the notion of people suggesting something was not done right. And I was totally agreeing that nothing is ever done "right", but if it succeeds, it is right.
I was just echoing what was said and applying my angle of how I don't like how people insult art that they don't like. If they don't like it, and have decided that much, it doesn't mean that the artist failed.
A person could create and perform a wonderful piece of music and singing with just an acoustic guitar. That artist decides that song should remain that way and that's how they record it and whatnot.
Someone else can not like it and say it needs more bass and more instruments and a female voice and, etc etc.
(And, as far as I am concerned, they can go *** off unless they can create their own works and/or honor the original musician by recording it their own way, if they like)
Hehe, I can see how my initial reply may have come off differently (That's what happens when I don't ramble on forever to cover all ground... but I try and keep my posts shorter than they would be otherwise).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Yep! In case it wasn't clear, part of my point is that I very much consider this medium art. I don't think it is deniable, really (Well, not logically, hehe). |
Originally Posted by seebs
And perhaps it is worth pointing out:
Any good programmer will tell you that there is art to code, as well as functionality. Even without any reference to the actual output, without any maps, without any zones, code can be beautiful and art in its own right. It's like any other work in language. You can write in English, but not all writing in English is art. You can write in C, but not all writing in C is art. |
Then again... I consider life to be art, so... don't look at me. Or... please do!
*runs away*
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I agree with most of your points, but these two are just not true. It's like you're looking through rose tinted glasses at CoH. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Customization, CoH is still in the top
Graphic wise, the game looks better than just about any other MMO and does so authentically and not using some crappy trick. |
Yes, CoH is a very high quality product, but it's showing its age. Heavily.
You may not like the artistic design of CO, but it has more diverse options to go with. I'll be the first to say that I don't play CO at all regularly, I don't find it quite that fun in recent time, but the fact's still true that it has more options over CoH. Even that new APB game has customization that far outmatches CoH or CO.
And, honestly, better graphics than any other MMO? Even with ultra mode, those are some rosey glasses...
"The Hollows was a cover up; it was really caused by Blue Steel experimenting with Foot Stomp." - Steelclaw
<-- boy
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I am so getting a cheetah...
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
So do cats. It's kinda cute watching a kitty cat pant.
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So where did they get the money to buy that popcorn they are giving you for free then? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Unless you paid money to be given a download link for the update, yes, they very much are. That's like saying free popcorn with your movie isn't truly free because you had to pay for the movie. Or because you had to pay for a parking spot.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
would you accept: 18th no extra cost associated with it update?
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
The issues are. The booster packs are not. So SOME updates are free.
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Originally Posted by 3dent
Art wouldn't be possible without craftsmanship and technique. Developing an MMO without software engineering, coding, QA, etc. is no more possible than, say, playing a musical instrument with no idea of how it works............
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Wordlessly hand someone an obscure instrument that they have never heard of before like say a recorder and see what happens... many will figure it out and be playing it in a matter of minutes.
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Originally Posted by _Psi_
I agree with most of your points, but these two are just not true. It's like you're looking through rose tinted glasses at CoH.
Yes, CoH is a very high quality product, but it's showing its age. Heavily. You may not like the artistic design of CO, but it has more diverse options to go with. I'll be the first to say that I don't play CO at all regularly, I don't find it quite that fun in recent time, but the fact's still true that it has more options over CoH. Even that new APB game has customization that far outmatches CoH or CO. And, honestly, better graphics than any other MMO? Even with ultra mode, those are some rosey glasses... |
City of Heroes just has the right ingredients that I look for in a game and puts them together in a way few others ever have... great now I'm hungry.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
This is the internet, where everyone is a 6'6" power-lifting, streetfighting god who is also a male model. Apparently, they are also tech experts with lots of knowledgeable and important friends.
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I've also posed as an artists model (and am something of an artist myself, mostly traditional... see my sig for examples).
I'm also a tech expert as I build custom computers for a living (hardware specialist though, not software or development)...
I have a few knowledgeable friends too.
P.S. Not sure if GR will be considered a success or fail but more than likely it will not ruin the game or be the end of CoH as we know it.
Whether it's results justify it's costs or how many new people will be drawn in remains to be seen.
I'm hopeful.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Dogs use their tongue to get cool... They have no sweat glands.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Also the pads of their feet.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I wouldn't be surprised. During the summer, my cocker always had ridiculously hot ears because of all her pretty, fluffy body hair trapping her body heat. (She would also climb into the bathtub to lie down on the cool surface. And she'd stare at the showerhead if you came into the bathroom while she was in the tub, waiting for you to turn on the cold water for her. It was adorable.)
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
A lot of species with big ears can also increase the blood flow to the ears to radiate heat. I know that some desert-dwelling canids do this. I don't know about domestic dogs.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I said "in the top", not "the top". This is important because I wouldn't say it has better customization the more modern titles that are in that category, but if the titles I have played that are also in the top CoH is better laid out, even if it's not the best overall.|
Originally Posted by _Psi_
I agree with most of your points, but these two are just not true. It's like you're looking through rose tinted glasses at CoH.
Yes, CoH is a very high quality product, but it's showing its age. Heavily. You may not like the artistic design of CO, but it has more diverse options to go with. I'll be the first to say that I don't play CO at all regularly, I don't find it quite that fun in recent time, but the fact's still true that it has more options over CoH. Even that new APB game has customization that far outmatches CoH or CO. And, honestly, better graphics than any other MMO? Even with ultra mode, those are some rosey glasses... |
Graphically it's not better than a lot of games, but we're talking MMOs. About the only thing we have to measure against is APB, CO, STO, DCUO, FFXIV, SW:tOR, FFXI, and a few others. And most of them we can toss out as not superior but might be equal (if that) but with worse style...and those that we would say are graphically superior a number of those use tricks rather than actually being better. Like in FFXIV they use a static texture for water and because you never get close enough to it you probably won't notice. And the few that are actually better I have near 0 interest in beyond, "hey that's cool!"
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This.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
.... And the few that are actually better I have near 0 interest in beyond, "hey that's cool!"
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You initially passed it off as fact that CoH was superior in that.
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| Graphic wise, the game looks better than just about any other MMO and does so authentically and not using some crappy trick. |
CoH really does look better than MMOs in its own age range. But plenty more have been released since then.
That seems to be something that CoH has a firm grasp upon: Updating their characters. Or at least, giving us newer options to pick out of the older ones. It keeps it all fresh, but it's a double edged sword and makes Praetoria (or what we've seen of it) look much more updated than our current game. (A problem that I think will quickly become evident when people step out of the zone at level 20 and into Paragon/The Isles, but that's another discussion)
edit: I suppose my point is that CoH's engine is quite capable of pushing out really nice graphics. The problem is that as we move forward with the new graphics, the old ones that aren't updated look painfully outdated now when they're all but showcased right next to current-tech.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, and hey, I love CoH too. But we need to be honest about what CoH shares the market with.
"The Hollows was a cover up; it was really caused by Blue Steel experimenting with Foot Stomp." - Steelclaw
<-- boy
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Originally Posted by _Psi_
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you |
Really, coming into this discussion to share what you view as looking at this game realistically, but what others in the thread would consider pretty negative, doesn't seem entirely friendly.
This game has gone through enormous graphical upgrades, and is getting another one next month, for alot of people that's advancement. Sorry they can't keep up with your advanced HD gaming needs.
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And where would you put the poor thing. Last I recall you live on an island lol.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
I am so getting a cheetah...
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For what? Disagreeing with you? The guy has a viewpoint and is sharing it politely. |
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Reported.
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I'm inclined to agree with _Psi_ because when I tried out CO, the only thing that grabbed me was the character creator. It was and is lightyears beyond what we have here in CoX. You might not like the art style of CO, lord knows I didn't, but the mechanics of the character creator are undeniably superior.
Graphically speaking, the game needs more help. Screenshots of Praetoria look great, but the old world looks like what it is: a game made in 2004 with some shinier water, better shadows and one AE building per zone (and not even in all zones) that has reflective windows. Still looks serviceable, but it's not gonna win any beauty contests either.
Nobody's saying CoX isn't a great game. It's my favourite (and currently only) MMO, and I will keep playing it even if they don't upgrade anything. I also feel that the game mechanics are the best on offer at this time and for the foreseeable future, with no upcoming game interesting me. However I do agree that it could use some more graphics loving. I'd go so far as to say that I would rather have seen a graphics upgrade focused solely on characters + an increase in texture resolution across the board than what Ultramode turned out to be.
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It isn't - ultra mode was in I17 |
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
This game has gone through enormous graphical upgrades, and is getting another one next month.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, David Nakayama has already made several threads asking for suggestions for improving the art aspects of CoH - so the devs are certainly aware of the contrast between Praetoria and the current game, and the need to make it les sof a contrast.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Graphically speaking, the game needs more help. Screenshots of Praetoria look great, but the old world looks like what it is: a game made in 2004 with some shinier water, better shadows and one AE building per zone (and not even in all zones) that has reflective windows. Still looks serviceable, but it's not gonna win any beauty contests either.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But that's not a game-wide graphical update - and as a lot of the new players who buy GR will do so because they're attracted to the idea of superheroes and villains, it's quite possible that many of them will chose to make a Hero or a Villain rather than a Praetorian as their very first avatar - Atlas Park, Galaxy City and Mercy Island will be their first expereince of CoH, not Nova Praetoria |
Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Brand new zones with Going Rogue, genius.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'd actually disagree with that. I tried CO out, and the only thing I liked in the CC was the options for asymetry and different upper arms, upper legs, different gloves...stuff that didnt match, basically. That was, ideed, cool.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm inclined to agree with _Psi_ because when I tried out CO, the only thing that grabbed me was the character creator. It was and is lightyears beyond what we have here in CoX. You might not like the art style of CO, lord knows I didn't, but the mechanics of the character creator are undeniably superior. |
But thats a tech quibble. The actual CC UI was an utterly fugly mess that was a pig to navigate through. The CoX CC, to me at least, is much easier to navigate, it's easier to find where stuff is... I'd love the assymetry because that makes it LOOK like you have more options (and technically you do, yes), and stuff like holsters and backpacks and what not. But I wouldnt say theres is superior. But thats literally just my sole opinion. I probably wouldnt argue either is 'Better'. But I know which I prefer =P
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork