Why make a scrapper when you can make a brute?
This is one of those points where I'd say give up on explaining it to the guy. He thinks he's superior than all of you who've done all the math and studies countless times just by miss-using some of your own data. At this point, he's gone far off enough from sane reasoning that he probably isn't going to come back.
Plus he isn't funny anymore.
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Don't you say that! |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
lol brutes
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Broots R Fun 2!
:P
Don't I know you???
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Furthermore, like the temperature example, even if global warming isn't a myth (debatable), it couldn't be used to predict the weather for the Fat Tire festival this weekend in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Just as saying Brutes out damage Scrappers, while it may be true to some extent, it doesn't tell you whether a brute is out damaging a scrapper in any actual situation (err.. should that be virtual situation?).|
Originally Posted by Werner
Now, given all that, the reason I made my 94 vs. 86 degrees comment is that it's essentially the same situation. Global temperature trends are a gigantic, multi-dimensional data set. To simply look at a couple of points in that data set and believe you can conclude anything about the data set as a whole is simply incorrect. You cannot assert anything about the data set as a whole from two simple measurements. Similarly, you cannot assert much of anything about Brute vs. Scrapper damage output from looking at the data Bill put together, except in regard to THOSE specific builds in THOSE specific circumstances.
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As someone once said (and if nobody said this before, I'll take credit for it). "All generalizations are false... including this one."
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Yer doin' it wrong |
Originally Posted by StoneJaguar
my BS/DA scrapper sucked at soloing
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Or because you like burning less end on toggles.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Willpower.
It's better then Regen. The only reason you would want to go Regen over WP is because quick recovery comes earlier. |
Or because you don't like fighting in a crowd.
Or because you like having the psychological crutch of click heals which are there when you need them.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Can't I keep filling the grave yard with the victims of my scrappers?
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Originally Posted by mauk2
(sigh)
We'll leave aside fire brutes and the "Holy crap" damage levels for the nonce. Care to address the fact that brutes do 3 percent more damage (average) and yet still have significantly more hitpoints and much higher defense caps? Shouldn't they do significantly less damage than scrappers(but more than tankers) in order to fit properly? Also, what's the word on gloom for scraps? Or that Castle is making scrapper criticals boost DOT's for fire melee? Or are people gonna keep whistling past the graveyard?  |
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Why play a brute when us tankers are going to go out of our way to steal your aggro?
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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'Cause brutes have the same threat level and taunt magnitude as tankers, and can do more damage while holding aggro.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
Why play a brute when us tankers are going to go out of our way to steal your aggro?
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You'd have to be taunting them to keep them on you and not the brute that's beating them down, and if the brute's not dying, you've no reason to steal his aggro just to hamper his DPS when you get nothing out of the aggro control yourself.
Ice tanks will have the edge on Brutes in agro terms I would think but then we're back to specific situations
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
You all gotta think that most of the browsers and post on the Scrapper forums do so because they enjoy playing Scrappers. Most of the regulars here will continue to play Scrappers. Why do we even care? If the fad runs over to play blueside brutes, we will still play scrappers. Why? Is it the numbers? Maybe. Is it the powersets? Maybe. But the truth of it is, we enjoy playing scrappers. They will not fade away. This thread is pointless. If anything, various redside exclusive villain groups should be VERY AFRAID. Why? We're coming to scrap them too.
Ware ni tatenu mono mashi!!
[There are none before me who have not been cleaved!!]
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/evil laugh
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Originally Posted by ChiosuBlues
You all gotta think that most of the browsers and post on the Scrapper forums do so because they enjoy playing Scrappers. Most of the regulars here will continue to play Scrappers. Why do we even care? If the fad runs over to play blueside brutes, we will still play scrappers. Why? Is it the numbers? Maybe. Is it the powersets? Maybe. But the truth of it is, we enjoy playing scrappers. They will not fade away. This thread is pointless. If anything, various redside exclusive villain groups should be VERY AFRAID. Why? We're coming to scrap them too.
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Flux Tempest-Electric Melee/Willpower
Zaunte's Rage-Claws/Invulnerability
Scrapper multiplier is higher. Thus, they do more damage. Some people will attmept to bring up fury but even at 50 Fury (100% enhanced damage), Brutes will only be doing a small margin more damage than scrappers. That's not including any buffs, critical hits, or fury fluxuations.
Scrappers sit at 1.125
Brutes sit at 0.75
So, lets assume both classes are about to use a 100 damage attack.
Scrappers will do 100x1.125=112.5 damage
Brutes will do 100x0.75=75 damage.
Now let's assume the brute is at 50 fury (100% enhanced damage).
100x0.75x2= 150 damage
Thats not a whole lot more.
Now let's assume that both are on the same team and theres a kinetic in the group. The Kinetic is giving everybody 100% enhanced damage. Both the Scrapper and the Brute (Who is still at 50 Fury) are getting a 100% damage boost.
100x1.125x2=225 Scrapper damage is 225
100x0.75x2(fury)x2(kinetics)=300 Brute Damage is now 300
Now, as you can see the Brute is still doing more damage but theres a problem. The scrapper still has that 5-15% chance to crit and benefited a lot more from that 100% damage increase due to his higher multiplier. Also, The Brute may or may not be at 50 fury. It's difficult for a Brute to get a large sum of fury if he isn't tanking. If there is a Tanker on the team, then the Brute possibly will not have 50 fury at all times. He may only be able to get to 20-30 depending on multiple factors, expecially if he's even being targeted by enemies.
TL
R The Brute's damage fluxuates and thus, isn't reliable. The Scrapper is able to consistantly deal out a large sum of damage without the aid of fury buildup. Thus his damage will outshine the Brute's early in a fight (When the Brute has low fury) but will eventually be eclipsed by the Brute if and only if the Brute can keep a steady income of Fury.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
I have tried to like brutes and furry it is not hard to build up I just do not enjoy chasing furry. I rather be able to ramp up right away and if I need to take a break cause of real life I can start at full throttle from go.
I have tried many of brutes I get no where quick before I just go back to blue side and make a scrapper |
I gain furry very easily. Luckily, I have a razor.
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Scrapper multiplier is higher. Thus, they do more damage. Some people will attmept to bring up fury but even at 50 Fury (100% enhanced damage), Brutes will only be doing a small margin more damage than scrappers. That's not including any buffs, critical hits, or fury fluxuations.
Scrappers sit at 1.125 Brutes sit at 0.75 So, lets assume both classes are about to use a 100 damage attack. Scrappers will do 100x1.125=112.5 damage Brutes will do 100x0.75=75 damage. Now let's assume the brute is at 50 fury (100% enhanced damage). 100x0.75x2= 150 damage Thats not a whole lot more. Now let's assume that both are on the same team and theres a kinetic in the group. The Kinetic is giving everybody 100% enhanced damage. Both the Scrapper and the Brute (Who is still at 50 Fury) are getting a 100% damage boost. 100x1.125x2=225 Scrapper damage is 225 100x0.75x2(fury)x2(kinetics)=300 Brute Damage is now 300 Now, as you can see the Brute is still doing more damage but theres a problem. The scrapper still has that 5-15% chance to crit and benefited a lot more from that 100% damage increase due to his higher multiplier. Also, The Brute may or may not be at 50 fury. It's difficult for a Brute to get a large sum of fury if he isn't tanking. If there is a Tanker on the team, then the Brute possibly will not have 50 fury at all times. He may only be able to get to 20-30 depending on multiple factors, expecially if he's even being targeted by enemies. TL R The Brute's damage fluxuates and thus, isn't reliable. The Scrapper is able to consistantly deal out a large sum of damage without the aid of fury buildup. Thus his damage will outshine the Brute's early in a fight (When the Brute has low fury) but will eventually be eclipsed by the Brute if and only if the Brute can keep a steady income of Fury. |
You forgot to factor in Enhancements, which increase Scrappers damage more then Brutes.
Lets talk about damage caps.
People go off on this about brutes, citing their 800% damage cap, while completely ignoring their lower base damage.
Heres some fun facts for you.
Lets assume both a Scrapper and a Brute are on a team. They are receiving the same buffs. There is a kin giving them +300% damage.
Scrapper is at his damage cap of 500%
Brute is at 75 fury(Which is a pretty average *high* number for brute fury on teams) giving him +150% damage on top.
So Brute is at 650% damage, and Scrapper is at 500% damage.
Scrapper is 1.15x5=5.75 damage
Brute is at .75x6.5=4.875 damage
In order for the brute to actually match the scrappers damage, he has to have an additional 170% more damage buffs applied.
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The only Tankers who do this are the crap ones.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
Why play a brute when us tankers are going to go out of our way to steal your aggro?
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Smart tankers, who actually understand their role, will be making sure to taunt mobs off squishies.
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When im the tanker, everything else is a squishy... the mobs are mine.. ALL OF THEM ! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The only Tankers who do this are the crap ones.
Smart tankers, who actually understand their role, will be making sure to taunt mobs off squishies. |
But seriously... if im the first in the mob, and I try my best to be, i try to keep the attention of all the pack (anyway while they are dancing under my footstomp all they see is ceiling-floor-ceiling-floor) so having played many brutes with good tankers in group i can see how fury would be harder to get.
Beware what lurks in the Shadows
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Ultimately, Brutes are probably better on uberteams where everybody can get buffed to the hilt. They are arguably better solo, but it's *REALLY* close here. In a more modest team environment, where Brutes aren't getting buffed to the damage cap but are getting buffed, Scrappers pull ahead.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Lets talk about damage caps.
People go off on this about brutes, citing their 800% damage cap, while completely ignoring their lower base damage. Heres some fun facts for you. Lets assume both a Scrapper and a Brute are on a team. They are receiving the same buffs. There is a kin giving them +300% damage. Scrapper is at his damage cap of 500% Brute is at 75 fury(Which is a pretty average *high* number for brute fury on teams) giving him +150% damage on top. So Brute is at 650% damage, and Scrapper is at 500% damage. Scrapper is 1.15x5=5.75 damage Brute is at .75x6.5=4.875 damage In order for the brute to actually match the scrappers damage, he has to have an additional 170% more damage buffs applied. |
I'm not convinced this is particularly "fair." I am convinced that there are far more important things for the devs to worry about, and after (and if) it actually starts to be a problem is plenty soon enough for any issue of comparative Brute and Scrapper performance to be addressed.
This whole thread strikes me as much ado about nothing. There are AT's that are far more likely to suffer population depletion with Going Rogue than Scrappers or Brutes, and there has yet to be a case made for even *THEM* to be a real issue. This is like worrying about a mild cold when you also have bubonic plague, and further when you have hypochondria so you may not even have any real disease at all and instead just be imagining it.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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It's one thing if you're first in the mob, that's really a Brute's top priority to not allow that to happen.|
Originally Posted by JamesTheShadow
But seriously... if im the first in the mob, and I try my best to be, i try to keep the attention of all the pack (anyway while they are dancing under my footstomp all they see is ceiling-floor-ceiling-floor) so having played many brutes with good tankers in group i can see how fury would be harder to get.
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Regardless, unless you go out of your way to literally taunt the exact same things the Brute is on, the Brute should be fine unless you're fighting a very tiny group.
But I have played with tankers, who actually try to taunt of the brute, which is pretty unproductive for the entire team.
When working together, a Tanker and Brute make an excellent combo.
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Think about what you're saying here, for just a moment...|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
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Regardless, unless you go out of your way to literally taunt the exact same things the Brute is on, the Brute should be fine unless you're fighting a very tiny group. But I have played with tankers, who actually try to taunt of the brute, which is pretty unproductive for the entire team. When working together, a Tanker and Brute make an excellent combo. |
You're saying a Brute (who has less survivability than a Tanker) should not be allowing the Tanker (who has the best survivability) to get into the mob first (ie: take the alpha strike when the mobs are the most dangerous).
Further, you're saying that a Tanker should never Taunt off a Brute - but if a Brute takes the alpha strike, they'll have up to 17 mobs attacking them. Unless the spawn is 34 mobs or more, the Brute will have more aggro than the Tanker (since he shouldn't Taunt off the Brute).
This boils down to the Tanker wasting their survivability so the Brute can fuel Fury and only using their aggro generation to keep squishies safe (a job Brutes can't lower themselves to).
I'm being a bit melodramatic above (and I can understand why a Brute wants to do those things), but there is a big problem there. One of my biggest pet peeves with Brutes (and Scrapper with taunt auras) is threat generation. They have the same threat mod, taunt mod (ie: duration), taunt mags (largely irrelevant), and single target Gauntlet while dealing more damage (damage is a large component of threat calculations). If a Brute wants aggro (ie: uses Taunt), there is not a damn thing a Tanker can do about it.
I'm not saying Tankers should just sneeze and hold aggro. I don't care if they have to work for it. But being 100% incapable of holding it is completely borked.
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Yeah, I completely agree that there's something wrong there. I don't tend to notice it with scrappers vs. Tankers, because Scrappers don't have the built-in 'gauntlet' effect that Brutes and Tankers do, but I've done a few ITF's as an Invuln/ Tanker with various Brutes and they've repeatedly been able to take aggro from me, even if I'm using taunt.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
One of my biggest pet peeves with Brutes (and Scrapper with taunt auras) is threat generation. They have the same threat mod, taunt mod (ie: duration), taunt mags (largely irrelevant), and single target Gauntlet while dealing more damage (damage is a large component of threat calculations). If a Brute wants aggro (ie: uses Taunt), there is not a damn thing a Tanker can do about it.
I'm not saying Tankers should just sneeze and hold aggro. I don't care if they have to work for it. But being 100% incapable of holding it is completely borked. |
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This is a good point. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I'm being a bit melodramatic above (and I can understand why a Brute wants to do those things), but there is a big problem there. One of my biggest pet peeves with Brutes (and Scrapper with taunt auras) is threat generation. They have the same threat mod, taunt mod (ie: duration), taunt mags (largely irrelevant), and single target Gauntlet while dealing more damage (damage is a large component of threat calculations). If a Brute wants aggro (ie: uses Taunt), there is not a damn thing a Tanker can do about it.
I'm not saying Tankers should just sneeze and hold aggro. I don't care if they have to work for it. But being 100% incapable of holding it is completely borked. |
I've got an invuln scrap that pulls aggro off tanks pretty regularly, and these are not bad tanker players by any stretch of the imagination.
I've seen AV's stick to my scrapper so bad that it takes me stopping my attacks and two taunts to turn them back around. (I notice this quite a bit when herding the patrons in the STF, for example.) It's so bad I've taken to turning off my taunt aura in such severe situations, which doesn't do my survivability any favors.
If I don't, the AV's AOE's are pointed right back at the squishies.
I mean, you have a tank, with aggro aura, using a pretty severe gauntlet attack chain and regular taunts, losing aggro.
Somethin' seems a little off, there.
But maybe I'm wacky.
A Tanker can hold aggro off Brutes and Scrappers that don't taunt if they (Tanker) do. I've held aggro on all four STF patrons with a Shield Scrapper before as WP. The problem is:
- If a Brute Taunts, Game Over for the Tanker. Best one in the world can't generate enough threat. (This is what I have a major problem with.)
- Even with non-Taunting Brutes/Scrappers, the Tanker needs to have a solid understanding of threat mechanics and a build to back it up. They may know what they need to do, but if they can't taunt frequently enough, pump out a high enough taunt duration, or dish out enough damage, they're sunk. It's not uncommon to see Tanker builds that skimp out on offense (4 Kinetic Combat and calling it done, I'm looking at you) in favor of keeping their mitigation high.
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I've been on both sides of this equation with a tanker and a shield scrapper; I see your point about aggro. As a BS/Shield scrapper the aggro I get is almost always mine even with a moderately competent tanker on the team. For that character this isn't generally a problem since he's defensively at midrange tanker levels... I've used him to main tank the ITF before. Yeah, a well built Invuln, Stone or Shield tanker is tougher but for most content that's academic... and I've actually run into a granite tanker who was squishier than that scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
A Tanker can hold aggro off Brutes and Scrappers that don't taunt if they (Tanker) do. I've held aggro on all four STF patrons with a Shield Scrapper before as WP. The problem is:
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I hate to think of what the slotting must have been as he had the prerequisite powers.As a tanker with a shield or invuln scrapper on the team I generally let them handle what they can and keep one eye on them to see if they get in over their heads. I'll admit it's difficult to get aggro from them but it can be done. That's part of the reason I always push the pace; so that I'm (as much as possible) the first one into battle. The other part is to keep the ranged AT's from getting bored and pulling another group down on us unexpectedly.
I do have to shake my head on occasion with uh, suboptimal tanker builds. There's almost always enough slots to manage good offense as well as good defense once a build matures. In the early levels true you have a problem, but by the mid-late 30's you should have enough slots for both a solid offense and defense.
In short I look at having a scrapper with a strong aura as an occasional challenge instead of a handicap. If they're tough enough to handle the aggro it makes my job easier; if they aren't then I've a challenge on my hands.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
We'll leave aside fire brutes and the "Holy crap" damage levels for the nonce.
Care to address the fact that brutes do 3 percent more damage (average) and yet still have significantly more hitpoints and much higher defense caps?
Shouldn't they do significantly less damage than scrappers(but more than tankers) in order to fit properly?
Also, what's the word on gloom for scraps? Or that Castle is making scrapper criticals boost DOT's for fire melee?
Or are people gonna keep whistling past the graveyard?
You're ability to continually fail is astounding.