Why make a scrapper when you can make a brute?
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Sure, people will still play what they want, but for how long? Once the fire/XXX brutes start proliferating, we're going to see another rush like we say with shield defense.
...or maybe I'm wrong. We will see.  But dismissing these concerns is short-sighted, I feel. |
See:
-/Regen, pre- and post-nerf.
-Energy melee, pre-nerf
-Fire/kin
-Fire/rad
-ill/rad
-elec/shield (or, anything/shield)
There've been some good points made here, but from where I'm sitting it looks like the general public leans towards following the fad... and the fads follow the numbers.
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Does anyone other than the tank in that scenario enjoy themselves? Does the tank even?
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Sorry, should expand on that. No brute is going to enjoy a tank on a gr team running off to herd like you can still get blue side The Herding to Here on every single spawn type.
A brute would much prefer to do as you say, take the alpha themselves to angry up the blood. |
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Herding as a tactic is long dead. On even a poor team, it is almost always better for the tank to aggro ahead and let the team follow any stragglers from the prior spawn to me. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Does anyone other than the tank in that scenario enjoy themselves? Does the tank even?
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'Steamrolling' is what I usually call it.
Br00tZ 4Evar (Except for my Fire/Shields Scrapper 
)
@Fail (Used to be @Tux) and @Tuxedo Infinitus Defiant/Freedom/Champion
Favourite Toons: Prosper [Ill/Rad] Controller :: Infinitus [Fire/Elec] Blaster :: Pocket Dynamo [Fire/Shield] Scr :: Fast [Cold/Sonic] Def ::
Inspire [Plant/Storm] Controller :: Quality - SS/Fire Brute :: Double Down [DP/Kin] Corr :: Pwnz [Fire/Cold] Corr :: Fail [Fire/Son] Corr
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All I can think of is a brute on a short bus.
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Originally Posted by _Tux__EU
Br00tZ 4Evar (Except for my Fire/Shields Scrapper
) |
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I'm sorry, all I could think of when I read this quote was this, specifically, 1:15.| All I can think of is a brute on a short bus. |
http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/cork.html
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I agree, let the Brute fix up the mobs, do a bit of damage, recieve some buffs if necessary, "be saved by the tankers entry", then let the team finish up as the Brute runs on.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Sorry, should expand on that. No brute is going to enjoy a tank on a gr team running off to herd like you can still get blue side The Herding to Here on every single spawn type.
A brute would much prefer to do as you say, take the alpha themselves to angry up the blood. |
Herding=Tending
Aggro cap is 17, on an 8 man team you may as well run into that one group, consider that the group has moved 3ft perhaps and so have been herded. I don't often see anyone going for the map anymore, and when they do they often cause problems. Congalines however can still be done correctly and are a joy.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I don't know. Have at it. A Fire/Shield Brute IO'd to the teeth should have great survivability and incredible sustained damage output. Make all Scrappers look feeble? Not exactly. Most of them? Probably. And a Fire/Shield Scrapper IO'd to the teeth will also make most Scrappers look feeble. Strangly enough, people continue to play other Scrappers. What's wrong with everyone? Can't they see that everything else is obviously inferior? |
Originally Posted by mauk2
A fire brute does fifteen percent more damage than a scrapper. It's right in the first freakin' post of this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132894 Fifteen percent! Okay, I don't care how IO'd out your scrapper is. Brutes can get IO's too. Why would I NOT make a fire brute, IO it up, and make all scrappers look feeble? |
Overly simplistic analysis is overly simplistic.
Will there be some migration to some of the higher powered Brute combinations? Of course. Will people stop playing anything BUT high-powered Brute sets? Uh... no. People will continue to play a great variety of archetypes and primaries and secondaries.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Amen.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Will there be some migration to some of the higher powered Brute combinations? Of course. Will people stop playing anything BUT high-powered Brute sets? Uh... no. People will continue to play a great variety of archetypes and primaries and secondaries.
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And to make it even more fun, you will see a lot more people follow the sheep to that magical OP set, only to get shamed by those playing the more feeble toons.
Then again, as long as I can throw a rock and not hit a fire/kin, I will be happy.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I remember that thread. That's my data.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
A fire brute does fifteen percent more damage than a scrapper. It's right in the first freakin' post of this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132894 172.3 dps for 3.1 endurance per second versus 151 dps for 3.3 endurance per second. Over 20 more dps for LESS END. Fifteen percent! Okay, I don't care how IO'd out your scrapper is. Brutes can get IO's too. Why would I NOT make a fire brute, IO it up, and make all scrappers look feeble? |
Perhaps you should have actually looked at the spreadsheets. And then compared the info against the high DPS hitters in the Rikti Pylon thread.
This is what I actually have listed.
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1 (Note, the numbers you listed were for Brute FM versus Scrap EM. Look again.)
Want to know what happens when you add Shield's AAO into the mix and saturate it with 10 enemies?
The scrapper goes up to 207.27
The brute goes up to 203.88
Looky there. A situation where the scrapper beats the brute on damage output.
Funny thing about those threads. I had them un-stickied before one of my breaks. When I came back, they had been stickied again. I still wish they hadn't been.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I know exactly what I posted: Highest Brute (version 2) versus highest scrapper (version2).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I remember that thread. That's my data.
Perhaps you should have actually looked at the spreadsheets. |
Want to change the base assumptions and go for the state used in the version 1 thread?
Just because you backed off that thread doesn't make the result there invalid.As you said, it's YOUR DATA, Bill.
Did you get it wrong?
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| And then compared the info against the high DPS hitters in the Rikti Pylon thread. |
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This is what I actually have listed. Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1 Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1 (Note, the numbers you listed were for Brute FM versus Scrap EM. Look again.) |
Read what I wrote again, note that I said not a word about which kind of scrap I was comparing against. I chose the very best one, and it STILL got pounded by the fire brute. Any other scrapper looks WORSE against the fire brute.
Using YOUR DATA, Bill.
Were you wrong?
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Want to know what happens when you add Shield's AAO into the mix and saturate it with 10 enemies? The scrapper goes up to 207.27 The brute goes up to 203.88 Looky there. A situation where the scrapper beats the brute on damage output. Funny thing about those threads. I had them un-stickied before one of my breaks. When I came back, they had been stickied again. I still wish they hadn't been. |
I am intimately familiar with the wretched state of broken-ness that is Shield Defense. AAO(toggle +dam and way too much taunt), the DDR "bug", the general END efficiency of the set, and the "holy crap" mistake on shield charge add up to a hugely broken set.
(Note that I have not yet begun to point out how shattered Grant Cover+Phalanx Fighting is, infinitely stacking buffs MUST be fixed at some point, but that's a mostly seperate discussion.)
The Dev's have already rebalanced BotZ as a partial 'fix' to this miserable state of affairs, and I suspect much more is coming.
I choose to stay away from using it as a basis of comparison until the Dev's have decided what they're gonna do about it.
Of course, I'm gonna play it until they do, it's flippin' AWESOME right now.
God Mode is fun!
I don't regret the post. I regret how some people bastardize the data to suit their purposes.
Fire on a brute is so high, where fire on a scrapper isn't, because Castle has yet to go in and correct the failure of Fire's DoT not being affected by crits.
The data is sound. How people interpret the data is often inept.
And this?
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You just go right on believing that. People believe stupid things all the time.
| Pfft, the rikti pylon data is dirty, little better than hearsay, in my book. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Welcome to my world.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't regret the post. I regret how some people bastardize the data to suit their purposes.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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No good deed goes unpunished, A.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Welcome to my world.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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I'm with you. It's specific chains, specific level of recharge, specific slotting, specific assumptions about generated fury, and so on. Even if the assumptions are reasonable, we're only looking at a handful of data points, and only on a single statistic, DPS, which isn't even particularly representative of damage output except in weird edge cases. Yet people continue to ascribe shocking amounts of meaning to those few data points.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't regret the post. I regret how some people bastardize the data to suit their purposes.
The data is sound. How people interpret the data is often inept. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Welcome to my world.
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I'm going to throw in my vote for probability and statistics as a required high school course. Might help. Might not. But at least it's more useful for most people in day to day life than, say, calculus.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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The problem with this is that it is meaningless. It is a cerebral effort... nothing more. And if all you want is a thought experiment, go nuts. However, in the actual game world, there aren't as many as one might think that give a damn about the numbers and play what they like. I would wager that most folks are like that. Therefore, you are getting responses that talk about there still being Scrappers and opinions and prefrences.|
Originally Posted by Tongz
Obsolete, in this context, would indicate that one archetype is "numerically" inferior to the other, while possessing no strengths to compensate for this. Who has more IO's, more skill, more influence, or more pimples on their back is all irrelevant. The question at hand deals with basic, equal-ground gameplay.
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Also, to use your car example, I would pick the Escort due to gas mileage and cost to insure...
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Meh. Scrappers have their unique sets too.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
When it comes to Brutes, they really have only one major advantage.
Powersets. Brutes have access to Super Strength, and Stone Melee, sets that would be absolutely mindbogglingly good in the hands of Scrappers. |
IMO, the one true advantage Brutes have, with no numerical damage factors taken into consideration, is their Taunt Aura. I'd kill for it on my FM/SR Scrapper. The higher HP would be nice, but the Taunt would be awesome. Admittedly, I generally do 2-4 man teams with no Tank in the mix, so I am a bit biased in this regard.
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Eh, thing is, the Scrappers Unique sets are not anywhere near as good as Brutes. Spines would be the only one that comes close. |
Originally Posted by Gaidin
Meh. Scrappers have their unique sets too.
IMO, the one true advantage Brutes have, with no numerical damage factors taken into consideration, is their Taunt Aura. I'd kill for it on my FM/SR Scrapper. The higher HP would be nice, but the Taunt would be awesome. Admittedly, I generally do 2-4 man teams with no Tank in the mix, so I am a bit biased in this regard. |
Just imagine if they ported SS to scrappers, unchanged. It would pretty much dominate all other sets.
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I never understand this. If Brutes can get super strength (and that's ok) and Brutes are at least statistically marginally better than Scrappers at peak performance, then how is super strength overpowered for Scrappers and not Brutes. It would seem that you are stating that super strength is overpowered compared to other power sets regardless of the archtype. It can't be because of crits as the scrapper/brute comparison already factors crits in vs fury.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Just imagine if they ported SS to scrappers, unchanged. It would pretty much dominate all other sets.
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At any rate if the "Brute is better than scrappers at all times why would you play a scrapper" crowd would like to get a consensus on how much better they are, say 5%-20%, they could then just ask he Devs for a comparable nerf and then be done with it. Just an idea...
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
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Lol this |
Originally Posted by Cynic
I blanked out when someone said that scrappers can take a break........... that worries me, over 6 years and it turns out I could have taken a break....... not sure when, maybe in between missions while people were loading? Surely not while anything was still standing?
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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I disagree. Kat/ alone is worth noting. Exceptional DPS with the ability to easily cap Melee Def is far from ignorable. |
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Eh, thing is, the Scrappers Unique sets are not anywhere near as good as Brutes. Spines would be the only one that comes close.
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Originally Posted by SBeaudway
I never understand this. If Brutes can get super strength (and that's ok) and Brutes are at least statistically marginally better than Scrappers at peak performance, then how is super strength overpowered for Scrappers and not Brutes. It would seem that you are stating that super strength is overpowered compared to other power sets regardless of the archtype. It can't be because of crits as the scrapper/brute comparison already factors crits in vs fury.
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A fair point, but I'd suggest double stacking Rage is the issue though.
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
I'm fairly sure the discrepancy would arise due to Rage affecting Scrapper's higher base damage numbers. Double-stacked Rage would create an even larger margin of damage performance.
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@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
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I HATED that class, I'd much rather do Calculus than probability and statistics even though P&S is infinitely more useful. I know someone who is a master at P&S and uses his knowledge to play pick three number lottery's and wins at least a few hundred dollars a month lol.
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Originally Posted by Werner
I'm with you. It's specific chains, specific level of recharge, specific slotting, specific assumptions about generated fury, and so on. Even if the assumptions are reasonable, we're only looking at a handful of data points, and only on a single statistic, DPS, which isn't even particularly representative of damage output except in weird edge cases. Yet people continue to ascribe shocking amounts of meaning to those few data points.
I'm so, so sorry Arcanaville. I'm going to throw in my vote for probability and statistics as a required high school course. Might help. Might not. But at least it's more useful for most people in day to day life than, say, calculus. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Me like stone/wp brute. It go smash. Thing die. Wp/stone tank fun, too. Hard to kill. No as fun, tho. No as strong. No as *SMASH*!! Dev's make bunny, puppy, and kitten thing now. Less number - moar smash.
Scrap good, too. When me think "scap" me no think *SMASH!*. Me only think brute get scrappy stuff to build fury fast. Me think scap and smash not same. Not same ok. This not me game. Brute be scrappy if brute want.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Point of order for the thread:
I have seen it bandied about that the results from the 'big comparison thread' at the top of the forum are that brutes do three percent more damage than scrappers.
And yes, on average, that is true.
I say, screw average.
A fire brute does fifteen percent more damage than a scrapper. It's right in the first freakin' post of this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132894
172.3 dps for 3.1 endurance per second
versus
151 dps for 3.3 endurance per second.
Over 20 more dps for LESS END.
Fifteen percent! Okay, I don't care how IO'd out your scrapper is. Brutes can get IO's too.
Why would I NOT make a fire brute, IO it up, and make all scrappers look feeble?
I do way more damages for less end, I have more hitpoints and much higher resistance caps.
A fire brute is a much more effective 'buff amplifier' on teams than a scrapper is, and can readily be buffed to tanker levels of durability combined with considerably better than scrapper levels of damage.
These are facts, folks.
Sure, people will still play what they want, but for how long? Once the fire/XXX brutes start proliferating, we're going to see another rush like we say with shield defense.
...or maybe I'm wrong. We will see.
But dismissing these concerns is short-sighted, I feel.