The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I regret even reading this thread, but will make one comment anyways. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Endurance use is not equal. Defenders use the same endurance for their Energy Blasts as Blasters, but do half the damage. Thus, they use twice the endurance defeating the same foes. That's not equality.
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I bolded that last part because you are missing the point that has been repeatedly mentioned. It is not about equality, but BALANCE. They are not the same thing.
Defenders make others greater - like an emp def with the two auras, CM, Fort, and AB on a blaster. Just look at how powerful that blaster becomes. What is the balance to all that? The ability to solo, and one tool that can be used is END management on a defender. You can't make a change to defenders like you are suggesting without all the other ATs being impacted. In the end, the bar is raised for everyone and the same differences will still be there.
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/echo
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
It is not about equality, but BALANCE. They are not the same thing.
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The thing is, it's not the builds. This is an experience I have across all of my characters. Yes, playstyle does figure into it, but it seems to me that one of the main factors eating into my enjoyment of the game is this problem of endurance.
Yes, I pace my attacks. Yes, I slot for endurance. Yes, I use Inspirations.
Pacing my attacks means I'm standing around getting pummelled when I could be fighting back, which isn't much fun. It's just frustrating.
I've slotted for endurance, yet I still have this issue to an excessive degree, in my opinion. To slot any more for endurance would diminish performance in other ways.
Inspirations run out.
As I say, it seems to be a pervasive problem. As Uberguy says, it's far from the only issue, and it may be more complex than I'm making out, but I think my suggestion that endurance use be recalibrated so it's less onerous would still improve the game experience for me, and for a lot of people who feel as I do.
(And as I say, the point of the thread was to see if there ARE a lot of people who feel as I do.)
AF, don't bother. It's been done. If you show the errors in their builds the response will be "I shouldn't have to make those sacrifices." If you show errors in tactics the response will be "Don't tell me how to play." If you show errors in logic you're trolling. If you show errors in math you're trolling.
You can lead an idiot to water but you can't stop him from drowning himself.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Soooo, basically as I expected.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The thing is, it's not the builds. This is an experience I have across all of my characters. Yes, playstyle does figure into it, but it seems to me that one of the main factors eating into my enjoyment of the game is this problem of endurance.
Yes, I pace my attacks. Yes, I slot for endurance. Yes, I use Inspirations. Pacing my attacks means I'm standing around getting pummelled when I could be fighting back, which isn't much fun. It's just frustrating. I've slotted for endurance, yet I still have this issue to an excessive degree, in my opinion. To slot any more for endurance would diminish performance in other ways. Inspirations run out. As I say, it seems to be a pervasive problem. As Uberguy says, it's far from the only issue, and it may be more complex than I'm making out, but I think my suggestion that endurance use be recalibrated so it's less onerous would still improve the game experience for me, and for a lot of people who feel as I do. (And as I say, the point of the thread was to see if there ARE a lot of people who feel as I do.) |
You just want the game to become exactly what Bill said you want it to.
Endurance being an issue is the MAIN POINT.
From this thread, no, there are not a lot of people who feel like you do. I can say pretty certainly that there is NO ONE in here who would agree that endurance is an issue for every single pri/sec combo.
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His own last post already said it all. He feels end is an issue for EVERY SINGLE toon he plays. I'd really like to see someone try to back him up on THAT point.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
AF, don't bother. It's been done. If you show the errors in their builds the response will be "I shouldn't have to make those sacrifices." If you show errors in tactics the response will be "Don't tell me how to play." If you show errors in logic you're trolling. If you show errors in math you're trolling.
You can lead an idiot to water but you can't stop him from drowning himself. |
Basically I made the point I wanted to with the response I expected from him. I'm pretty much done with this thread and will just be reading . . . and laughing from a far.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Sigh. I wasn't about to go into a detailed review of every character I have, there are a great many of them.
Do all of them have endurance issues all the time? For the most part, yes. My Claws/Regen Scrapper doesn't have nearly the trouble my Mace Tankers do. Does that mean there's no problem? Of course not, it means that power set is more endurance efficient, which may be part of the problem.
I'm speaking in generalities.
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Don't waste your time.. Ultimo still hasn't been able to grasp why his Defender can't have the survivability and damage of a Scrapper. The concept of game balance is meaningless to him.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
I regret even reading this thread, but will make one comment anyways.
I bolded that last part because you are missing the point that has been repeatedly mentioned. It is not about equality, but BALANCE. They are not the same thing. Defenders make others greater - like an emp def with the two auras, CM, Fort, and AB on a blaster. Just look at how powerful that blaster becomes. What is the balance to all that? The ability to solo, and one tool that can be used is END management on a defender. You can't make a change to defenders like you are suggesting without all the other ATs being impacted. In the end, the bar is raised for everyone and the same differences will still be there. |
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Classic. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You can lead an idiot to water but you can't stop him from drowning himself.
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Then I say mission accomplished. The answer is: No, there aren't. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
(And as I say, the point of the thread was to see if there ARE a lot of people who feel as I do.)
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Nothing more to see here, folks, move along.
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number?
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Right now they're calling up their buddies to come post against you to tip that balance. If they can't get a turn out, the next post will be noise about how the forums aren't an accurate sampling of all the players in the game, but that somehow these invisible, silent legions agree with them that there is no endurance problem in the game.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number? |
.
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50% of those who participated (not even knowing how many did not) of an unknown percentage of overall population.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number? |
"50%" is not just an insignificant number, it's an irrelevant number as it has no frame of reference.
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As I grew from a boy to a man, I worked out a lot. Part of that was due to mandatory PT, but mostly it was because I wanted to be stronger, faster and have more endurance.
So, a toon trains to increase certain attributes with each level at the cost of other attributes. They can select a path with less emphasis on stamina and fitness.
Likewise, I could have spent my time studying German, instead of running.
This would mean that, while I could interpret for my unit, I would face a tougher time on ruck marches.
Is your issue that you want it all without cost? Because the concept of trade-offs and specialization shouldn't be all that foreign.
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It certainly doesn't count those that visit the thread, furrow eyebrows or read the responses and figure the issue is settled, and move on.|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
50% of those who participated (not even knowing how many did not) of an unknown percentage of overall population.
"50%" is not just an insignificant number, it's an irrelevant number as it has no frame of reference. |
As you said, without a frame of reference, it's just a number pulled from the air.
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Most of those have simply asked folks to lay off bashing you. Only a few have expressed a real agreement with your premise.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number? |
For instance, did you assume I disagreed with your assertion and count me in the '26' that disagree? I quite pointedly expressed no opinion on it - I simply stated it looks like you got an answer.
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I offered it hoping you could relate to it, because it seems as though you dont understand the basic mechanics of this game.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Everyone has access to everything, but not equal access. You obviously offered the hockey analogy so you you could shoot it down. Straw Man.
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Please explain how, when you create a toon, that you dont have the exact same choices available to you as everyone else. Perhaps you dont have a toon over 20, and therefore cannot play a H/Veat. Besides that possibility, you have the exact same choices as everyone else. No more, no less.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
So, let's get back to CoH. Endurance use is not equal. Defenders use the same endurance for their Energy Blasts as Blasters, but do half the damage. Thus, they use twice the endurance defeating the same foes. That's not equality.
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How many blasters can solo a GM with less endurance usage than that defender? Different toons shine in different circumstances. How many scrappers can solo a GM with the same endurance cost? How many tanks?
Thats not equality, because you are comparing apples to oranges. Apples and oranges taste good, and are interchangeable as a snack. Thats balance.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I haven't suggested anything radical. I haven't suggested changing anything except endurance.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Actually, I've been told exactly this. From the FIRST reply, I've been told to build better, frankenslot and get teammates.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
No one has even remotely said that. You dont need to purple a build. You dont need to use sets. You dont need to franken slot. You dont need to use IO's at all. You dont need to use stamina, you dont need to use physical perfection. You dont need to use conserve power. You dont need to use temp powers. You dont need to use accolades. You dont need to use inspirations. You dont need to combine inspirations to get exactly the one you need. You dont need to use end reductions in your powers. You dont need to use powersets that have end managment powers in them. You dont need to rely on team mates with end recovery powers. You dont need to use brawl and your origin power. You dont need to pause for a second between attacks.
Tell you what though, sure helps if you do. |
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Interestingly, I'd agree Blasters need more damage, specifically because damage is their defense. If they can't take their foes down rapidly, they don't last long. However, that's another thread.
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You want to give everyone more End. Please explain to me how that will balance your choice AT vrs another one... The blaster will STILL take down the mob using less endurance than the defender... so how is that equality? Now you are also willing to argue that blasters need more damage, so they will take down the mob using even LESS end than this defender of yours? You are confusing me. Please clarify.
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Simple. Make every AT into a tankmage. Then there will be equality and Ultimo will be satisfied.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
*Boggles*
You want to give everyone more End. Please explain to me how that will balance your choice AT vrs another one... The blaster will STILL take down the mob using less endurance than the defender... so how is that equality? Now you are also willing to argue that blasters need more damage, so they will take down the mob using even LESS end than this defender of yours? You are confusing me. Please clarify. |
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Oh... why didnt he just say that from the begining?. Carry on.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Simple. Make every AT into a tankmage. Then there will be equality and Ultimo will be satisfied.
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Sorry if I've misunderstood, but the bolded bit seems to be saying that you are equating:|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number? |
"There are major problems with endurance usage throughout the game" (what you're saying)
and
"There are some problems in a very small part of the game, but overall it's fine". (what a fair few people here, including me, are saying)
If so, then it's no wonder people accuse you of lying. You are deliberately distorting facts to make your side of the argument seem more popular than it is.
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You're no daisy! You're no daisy at all. Poor soul, you are just too high strung.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Right now they're calling up their buddies to come post against you to tip that balance. If they can't get a turn out, the next post will be noise about how the forums aren't an accurate sampling of all the players in the game, but that somehow these invisible, silent legions agree with them that there is no endurance problem in the game.
. |
Only one speaking about invisible silent legions is OP.
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You have disgust for someone who has a differing opinion of you on a videogame?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
BS like "I've seen a grand total of 5 other characters in the last couple of weeks, on several servers" does nothing but exacerbate the ever growing disgust I have for people like you.
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Seriously?
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I don't actually care, for the record. I'm only posting here right now because I'm bored out of my mind.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, after a little tally (ignoring distinctions such as level range), I count 26 people that agree that there may be an issue to look at, and 26 that disagree.
50%. Is that an insignificant number? |
I think the lot of you could use a great big dose of perspective.
EDIT: That Tea Partying tagger in particular!
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No. I have disgust for liars.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
You have disgust for someone who has a differing opinion of you on a videogame?
Seriously? |
Be well, people of CoH.
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You're still overstating things quite a bit. Ultimo did not bust down your door, steal your money and shoot your dog. I think you can settle down now.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No. I have disgust for liars.
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Okay I'm about to do something that no one has yet.
Post your builds.
What exactly do you find tedious/unfun?
I'm serious. you already stated that the issue also exists at higher levels. Don't backtrack now.
Post. Your. Builds. That you are having end issues with.
And I'll tell you how to not have those issues.
I'll await your response.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!