The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Oh, and to address this specifically, I haven't neg-repped anyone in this thread. I make a point to only positively rep people as a rule. I also sign it.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
P.S. Thanks for the NEG Rep too.
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Which, incidentally, is something BZB also does. And I respect him for it, since it's more than most do.
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True enough, but the way it's generally understood is dancing around in an area of fuzzy, subjective definition. Which is to say that what one considers a "want" versus a "need" is largely subjective, which just makes the division all the more artificial.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
While it's true "by strict definition" that a need is a lack of somethign wanted, it's not typically how it's generally understood.
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| I need to breathe. (Definitely not a want. Lack of breath = dead. Nobody's going to argue that's a need.) |
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| In any case, I'd say playing semantics is a good sign the thread is pining for the fjords. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Oh, and to address this specifically, I haven't neg-repped anyone in this thread. I make a point to only positively rep people as a rule. I also sign it.
Which, incidentally, is something BZB also does. And I respect him for it, since it's more than most do. |
My apologies then. For some reason I cannot see my rep messages at the moment.
And I made an assumption. One of my many human faults I guess.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I have yet to hear a single person say they would be willing to give up x to gain extra end.
I could get behind a always ready rest idea, but that will not solve the perceived issue of running out of endurance mid battle.
I am still not convinced that my low end game is unfun due to endurance issues.
Would a significant percentage of the game population still take stamina even if there were a global endurance buff?
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It was because people were gimping themselves. They would pick two defence sets and be unkillable, but they had no chance of clearing a spawn.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I've heard that, but I wasn't there so I can't say for sure why. I suspect it has to do with the power sets not being balanced enough in themselves, but it's just speculation.
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So the dev's, realizing that common sense is not so common, designed the AT's to make it more difficult(Not impossible) to completely gimp yourself.
Not that that stops people from trying by ignoring such things as end recovery powers, and the like.
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It's not badly designed. Those are usually players who are slotted for extreme recharge max-DPS attack chains, taking Tough/Weave for extra survivability, etc. In other words, they're taking QR and Stamina, not because they have basic endurance issues and need it to get by, but because they are seeking a much greater level of performance. They're playing at high difficulty levels, or they're soloing AV's, or doing something else that requires that level of endurance recovery.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
(notice how most people with access to Quick Recovery still take Stamina! It's just that badly designed).
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My Fire/Rad controller has perma-Accelerate Metabolism and has even more end recovery than a scrapper with QR and Stamina. I don't need that level of recovery to play just fine on normal settings though. I use that level of recovery to support the ability to play at +2 or +3/x8 solo. That doesn't mean the endurance mechanic is broken.
The only suggestion I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all, is to increase the base recovery rate while simultaneously lowering the recovery rate of Stamina. That would keep the overall endurance recovery the same, which would not make lvl20+ characters any more powerful, while also reducing downtime at low levels. It would also move Stamina more into the realm of an optional power and open up some more build flexibility. It would, however, tend to increase the leveling rate from 1-20 even more than it already is. I'm not sure the devs would consider that a good thing.
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It would also make +recovery bonuses more effective because they work off of base recovery. Buffs like speed boost, drain psyche, and accelerate metabolism would do more for you too. This would in turn make stamina even less needed, and bring up overall performance of the already high end builds that are soloing +4/x8, AVs, and GMs.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
The only suggestion I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all, is to increase the base recovery rate while simultaneously lowering the recovery rate of Stamina. That would keep the overall endurance recovery the same, which would not make lvl20+ characters any more powerful, while also reducing downtime at low levels. It would also move Stamina more into the realm of an optional power and open up some more build flexibility. It would, however, tend to increase the leveling rate from 1-20 even more than it already is. I'm not sure the devs would consider that a good thing.
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The more I think about it, the more I like it. I could drop stamina from most of my characters, while keeping the same recovery, but add three powers to their repertoire that they did not have before.
You'd still have to increase the difficulty settings to something like +5/x10, though.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Well, they could do a global end cost decrease and a stamina decrease. Average characters would stay the same. Pre-stamina would be less waiting around. End hogs (which might change from what they currently are in terms of AT/powerset) would need to consider slotting more end redux. And it opens up the opportunity for more characters to go without stamina.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I have yet to hear a single person say they would be willing to give up x to gain extra end.
I could get behind a always ready rest idea, but that will not solve the perceived issue of running out of endurance mid battle. I am still not convinced that my low end game is unfun due to endurance issues. Would a significant percentage of the game population still take stamina even if there were a global endurance buff? |
As it stands now, the problem isn't killing speed/what diff you can fight at so much as the fact that you get 3 dull as dirt powers right at the same time as your leveling speed starts slowing down. I know that personally, I take little joy in leveling from 12-22-ish depending on when I take the stamina chain. No only is it the lame illusion of choice, but it's a dull one. At least if the required powers were flashy or interesting, it might make the need to take them a little more palatable.
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Here's an idea. Level up to 20 without taking hurdle/health/stamina. Then, as soon as you feel endurance getting tight, switch to build 2, and take hurdle/health/stamina without ever having to level up with them.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
As it stands now, the problem isn't killing speed/what diff you can fight at so much as the fact that you get 3 dull as dirt powers right at the same time as your leveling speed starts slowing down. I know that personally, I take little joy in leveling from 12-22-ish depending on when I take the stamina chain. No only is it the lame illusion of choice, but it's a dull one.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
At least if the required powers were flashy or interesting, it might make the need to take them a little more palatable.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Add to that the fact that you can space out the powers, too. I usually get Swift or Hurdle at level 6 or 8, Health at level 14 or 16, and then Stamina at level 20. That way, the 'fun' powers are interspersed there, and there's no 6-level span of having to take passive powers.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Good point. Didn't think about that aspect of it. This is a good example of why any change is unlikely to happen. It would open up a huge can of worms when it comes to game balance, and the current mechanic is not anywhere remotely near the problem some here are making it out to be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It would also make +recovery bonuses more effective because they work off of base recovery. Buffs like speed boost, drain psyche, and accelerate metabolism would do more for you too. This would in turn make stamina even less needed, and bring up overall performance of the already high end builds that are soloing +4/x8, AVs, and GMs.
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I also don't see the "top end" limitations on performance brought about by limitations on endurance to be a bad thing either. And, some will actually like the challenge of finding ways to push their characters' performance to extremely high levels, regardless of where the ceiling happens to be. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
It's not badly designed. Those are usually players who are slotted for extreme recharge max-DPS attack chains, taking Tough/Weave for extra survivability, etc. In other words, they're taking QR and Stamina, not because they have basic endurance issues and need it to get by, but because they are seeking a much greater level of performance. They're playing at high difficulty levels, or they're soloing AV's, or doing something else that requires that level of endurance recovery.
My Fire/Rad controller has perma-Accelerate Metabolism and has even more end recovery than a scrapper with QR and Stamina. I don't need that level of recovery to play just fine on normal settings though. I use that level of recovery to support the ability to play at +2 or +3/x8 solo. That doesn't mean the endurance mechanic is broken. The only suggestion I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all, is to increase the base recovery rate while simultaneously lowering the recovery rate of Stamina. That would keep the overall endurance recovery the same, which would not make lvl20+ characters any more powerful, while also reducing downtime at low levels. It would also move Stamina more into the realm of an optional power and open up some more build flexibility. It would, however, tend to increase the leveling rate from 1-20 even more than it already is. I'm not sure the devs would consider that a good thing. |
Raising the floor in lower levels, while keeping the overall ceiling in place, however that is achieved, seems like a good thing to do. Raising base recovery rates and lowering the recovery bonus from stamina would be one way of achieving that goal.
On a different note, as one more argument against the ubiquity of stamina as a strong indication of a problem, the choice to take stamina and two prerequisites will always be weighed against the marginal value of the least helpful other three power picks a player might take instead. As long as players can put together a strong package of other powers, most players will generally want stamina; being without endurance leaves you virtually unable to defend yourself and it generally isn't fun (you can run away sometimes, but that doesn't register very high for most of us on the fun scale). Even at marginal values stamina would probably remain a popular pick because it allows players to more easily handle multiple ambushes, other over-aggro, long battles, endurance sapping, and other scenarios that occur from time to time.
If stamina has less of an impact on recovery rates, which I would be fine with seeing happen, it would quite likely be taken later in many builds. But, it would probably still be taken for most characters, even if the benefits are fairly marginal.
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Except that this would have a number of side effects, as mentioned above, such as having every OTHER power that increases Endurance recovery increased by a similar amount. So, basically, you'd need to cut every other +recovery power down as well, such as Speed Boost, AM, Quick Recovery, etc. Otherwise, you'd have a lot of builds out there where this would be a huge buff for them, at no cost.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Raising the floor in lower levels, while keeping the overall ceiling in place, however that is achieved, seems like a good thing to do. Raising base recovery rates and lowering the recovery bonus from stamina would be one way of achieving that goal. |
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| On a different note, as one more argument against the ubiquity of stamina as a strong indication of a problem, the choice to take stamina and two prerequisites will always be weighed against the marginal value of the least helpful other three power picks a player might take instead. As long as players can put together a strong package of other powers, most players will generally want stamina; being without endurance leaves you virtually unable to defend yourself and it generally isn't fun (you can run away sometimes, but that doesn't register very high for most of us on the fun scale). Even at marginal values stamina would probably remain a popular pick because it allows players to more easily handle multiple ambushes, other over-aggro, long battles, endurance sapping, and other scenarios that occur from time to time. |
At some point in a build, there is very little need to add another attack, or another, superfluous defense. You've got a full attack chain, or enough Defenses that you're not dieing. So, what do you do? You take other, 'gimmick' powers. Stamina is a great choice for these picks, since they help you do everything else better. It will likely always be so, no matter what you do to it.
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| If stamina has less of an impact on recovery rates, which I would be fine with seeing happen, it would quite likely be taken later in many builds. But, it would probably still be taken for most characters, even if the benefits are fairly marginal. |
So if the indicator of a problem remains, does that mean that the problem remains? If and that is true, then is there a way to fix it?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Would a significant percentage of the game population still take a weakened stamina even if there were a global endurance reduction?|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Well, they could do a global end cost decrease and a stamina decrease. Average characters would stay the same. Pre-stamina would be less waiting around. End hogs (which might change from what they currently are in terms of AT/powerset) would need to consider slotting more end redux. And it opens up the opportunity for more characters to go without stamina.
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If the answer is yes, then what does it change?
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Originally Posted by rsclark
As it stands now, the problem isn't killing speed/what diff you can fight at so much as the fact that you get 3 dull as dirt powers right at the same time as your leveling speed starts slowing down.
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On the matter of tweaking the baseline up and Stamina down, and the associated idea of tweaking the costs of powers down, it's important to bear in mind that the algebra involved means it's basically impossible to stay in the same place we do today.
Think of all the ways we can get +recovery or equivalent effects. IOs like Miracles, having higher base values like VEATs, having in-set powers (which are stronger than Stamina) which you can take with Stamina, +end Procs... Think of the algebraic representation of your net end burn once you include 4-5 of those tools, plus your endurance reduction slotting.
You can, most likely "pin" performance for one "representative" build combination, and all the others will end up either higher or lower in net end burn than they were before, depending on how many of these tools you account for when you try to pin "peak" performance. There are too many variables available to ensure that everyone ends up in a proportionally scaled place.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Since the goal for those clamoring for END for the newbie lowbies, perhaps this should satisfy?
Idealism - For the first 30 days of an account's existence, all characters created by that account will receive a scaling END Discount buff. This buff will start at 10% at level 1 and scale down to 0% at level 20.
The 10% is, of course, a guestimate and is open to debate. And since it is END Discount rather than +Recovery, it does not get affected by slottings and it relieves the early crunch which is where the "problem" is claimed to exist. I don't particularly agree, but I'm curious to see how this might be viewed.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Except that doesn't solve Ultimo's problem of wanting his Defender (mind you, his defender as it is now, he doesn't really care about the newbies) to have the same DPE of a blaster.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Of course. Which is why I'm ignoring that aspect and trying to take the other commentary at face value.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except that doesn't solve Ultimo's problem of wanting his Defender (mind you, his defender as it is now, he doesn't really care about the newbies) to have the same DPE of a blaster.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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I figured, I'm just pointing out that we are in Ultimo's troll thread, and he will lambaste you for completely missing the point and suggesting something based on taking his comments out of context, or some other bull like that.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Of course. Which is why I'm ignoring that aspect and trying to take the other commentary at face value.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Coyote Seven: I know it's a long thread, but if you go back and read Ultimo's posts, they contain knowing untruths. I disproved one of them and he responded with a pathetic attempt at bullying, followed by continuing to claim the false statement.
If that's not a liar, what is?
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I'm going to have to both agree and disagree at the same time.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use.
Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels). |
On one hand, the pace of the game is to where stopping an resting seems counter-productive. On the other hand, every MMO has a form of 'enforced rest' to either recover HP or whatever other resource they may use (like Mana, Endurance, Stamina, etc).
I would consider Stamina to be another form of Mana. A caster from any other MMO, take a Mage or Priest in WoW, can also run out of Mana (OOM!) and can often be seen eating/drinking in between fights. Even a Warrior will need to eat and/or bandage between fights. My ToS in AoC can easily run OOM in longer fights and my Loremaster in LotRO has been known to stop and rest on a regular basis. These mechanics are in place to both pace the game a bit as well as increase player awareness of their character. If mechanics like this did not exist then you loose a layer of some of that challenge.
I will have to say this, though. Of my L50 Blaster, Tanker and MM, I rarely ever run out of Endurance. I'd say from the mid-20s forward (after I get some SOs slotted) the only time I see myself getting really low on End is in large teams that may pull one or more groups at a time, or chain pull a big mission. Once I get IOs slotted in (early 30s), I can nearly run non-stop. Granted, I also take Stamina in all of my characters (except Kinetics, because I enjoy using their Siphons as my End Recovery mechanics). However, the teens into the low 20s is probably the most frustrating level range for me. DOs don't do enough, you don't have many slots to work with, and your (well, mine at least) focus is on Acc and End, meaning your characters suffer a bit in the Damage/Defense areas.
One thing I would like to have seen in the game, and hopefully something we see in a sequel, are more types of End-Recovery/Reduction powers. More things like Consume, Siphons, Conserve Power, etc. though I'd have more +Recovery than +End.
Still, if you are L50 and having End Issues I would look at two things: Build and Difficulty. If you aren't slotting End Redux then you'll have End issues. If you are soloing while set to 5-man and +3s then I have no problems with requiring more End management on the side of the player.
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I'm rather surprised that anyone on this board even bothered to tell me something like this. I mean, seriously, thank you for being thoughtful. I know most people here would much rather have knee-jerk reactions, start throwing around baseless accusations, and "punish" me with negative rep points for daring to go against the group-think.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Coyote Seven: I know it's a long thread, but if you go back and read Ultimo's posts, they contain knowing untruths. I disproved one of them and he responded with a pathetic attempt at bullying, followed by continuing to claim the false statement.
If that's not a liar, what is? |
I've never read a single post by Ultimo before this thread and I really don't care what he thinks. I don't see a problem with endurance in this game and I don't know why anyone is even taking this idea seriously. It's a total joke what with how long and heated this thread has become. You'd think that Ultimo had some magic power to influence the devs into making unnecessary changes!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Except that doesn't solve Ultimo's problem of wanting his Defender (mind you, his defender as it is now, he doesn't really care about the newbies) to have the same DPE of a blaster.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I figured, I'm just pointing out that we are in Ultimo's troll thread, and he will lambaste you for completely missing the point and suggesting something based on taking his comments out of context, or some other bull like that.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Coyote Seven: I know it's a long thread, but if you go back and read Ultimo's posts, they contain knowing untruths. I disproved one of them and he responded with a pathetic attempt at bullying, followed by continuing to claim the false statement.
If that's not a liar, what is? |
Once again, I never mentioned my Defender. I have said, again and again, that I'm interested in making life better for everyone.
Accusing someone of trolling is trolling and not allowed according to the forum rules. Either way, you're incorrect. I'm not trolling, I'm asking a question and making an honest suggestion. That is, unless you consider any question or sugestion you don't like to be trolling.
Show me ANY "knowing untruth" I've posted. I NEVER deliberately mislead in ANY of my posts, and I find it VERY insulting to be accused of lying in this or any other way.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Once again, I never mentioned my Defender.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Endurance use is not equal. Defenders use the same endurance for their Energy Blasts as Blasters, but do half the damage. Thus, they use twice the endurance defeating the same foes. That's not equality.
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Sure it's not a "knowing untruth," but it's dishonest enough in my book.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
And it's not "by my logic" it's by the very definitions of the words. A need is a lack of something wanted, and to want something is to feel a need for it.
I need to breathe. (Definitely not a want. Lack of breath = dead. Nobody's going to argue that's a need.)
I need to use the restroom. (Yeah, I want to at the same time, but not doing so is unpleasant for everyone involved.)
I need a Ferrari. (Um.... barring racing, or the requirement of one for a car show or movie, would anyone agree that's really a *need* just because I "lack something wanted?")
Yeah, I'm basically reinforcing yoru point here, but it's that ... disconnect of definition, I suppose, that tends to lead to arguments. Most people are going to say "No, you *want* a Ferrari" to that last one (barring special situations,) or "No, you WANT IOs," or "You WANT Stamina" - the only thing "needed" for the game (as most people are going to take "need") is a computer, internet connection, and active account.
In any case, I'd say playing semantics is a good sign the thread is pining for the fjords.