The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Giving everyone more end is not better balance. It is the exact same thing, the exact same game, but with more end. Of course, because there are many ways to maintain endurance, we dont need more end.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
My goal isn't to make the game easier, just better balanced for everyone, more versatile, and hopefully more in keeping with the source material.
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If you have more end, you can fight longer without pausing, without making choices of whats more important, attacking, or surviving. mezzing or running. That makes the game easier, and less interesting. Less interesting for me, is not fun. This is not a side scroller, there are many different ways to play this game, you want everyone to play the same way. Playing the same way joe blow plays is not fun to me.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This thread, of course, is only meant to be on the topic of improving endurance issues.
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I'll admit that I rather enjoy spending money on buying individual cards nowadays. That was something I couldn't do back when I started playing the game, and it made things such a drag for me.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I play a very budget limited Type 1.5, so I'm pretty much monocolored decks. I've got one I call "Bounce, Counter, BOOM!" which revolves around bouncing and countering your stuff until I wipe you clean with flying creatures and the ... big 6/6 creature that lets me steal spells when I counter them, but I can't remember it's name.
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I stumbled up the very cheesy combo of using Isochron Scepter with Counterspell, and later Terminate. I've since stopped using that. It was just too much! Ten years ago, I made up a blue/red creatureless deck centered around REB/BEB, chaoslace and thoughtlace. Very very cheesy. I don't do that sort of thing anymore! lol
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| My other good one is a black cleric/zombie deck that kills you by sacrificing my creatures. Yes, you read that right. |
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| My crowning moments of awesome you can see in my video, linked in my sig. Also completing an MoSTF without any outside buffs. That was glorious. |
The only endurance problem I have is when...........
Well i don't wanna have to get my wife involved on this....
I actually don't think simply universally increasing endurance would completely fix things, but it might help. There would still be a discrepancy between ATs, but people would not be running out as fast. This is why I suggested a "recalibration" instead of an increase. My thinking is that endurance use should be equalized somewhat and then raised universally.
Again, that's just my take on it.
Off topic, I still have all my Magic cards, but I haven't so much as looked at them in years. Ah, good times. I don't recall exactly when I got ot of it, it was before they changed all the icons, whenever that was.
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Ouch. Slot stamina asap. They also really really really like if you take quick recovery. Makes them feel like you are as in to them as when you first started dating and could give encore presentations in one night. Sadly, quick recovery is an uber rare temp power these days for me.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
The only endurance problem I have is when...........
Well i don't wanna have to get my wife involved on this.... |
Blue pills!!!!
Might have to buckle down and invest on some.... 
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Er what? So did you want to have (for example) defenders use less endurance for their attacks, but use more for their buffs/debuffs?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I actually don't think simply universally increasing endurance would completely fix things, but it might help. There would still be a discrepancy between ATs, but people would not be running out as fast. This is why I suggested a "recalibration" instead of an increase. My thinking is that endurance use should be equalized somewhat and then raised universally.
Again, that's just my take on it. |
For blasters, increase their damage to increase survivability?
Tanks to use less endurance for their attacks, and balance that out by making them less tough, or have less HP?
Scrappers.... Hell scrappers are perfect.
Controllers... use less end for their holds and such, but increase end usage for their buffs/debuffs?
Brutes, clearly need more end so that they can slot just damage in their attacks. That way, if they dont want to keep rushing around, they wont loose the whole bonus from fury. Balance by less hp and defence?
Stalkers... No idea here... More hp perhaps? Less end in their defences, attacks are fine?
MM's? Please refer to scrappers.
Doms, much more end, so they dont have to build for domination as much? Lessen the mag on their mez's?
Dont know, is that what you mean by balance?
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That was just illustrating Dark Armor's inherent endurance drain and recovery debuff resistance. Sappers are a cakewalk.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
OMG, even against that many Sappers? You da man!
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I think, Ultimo_, that you could deflect a lot of the aggro towards you if you posted a few of your builds for the generally benevolent forumites too look at.
You see, without having anyway to determine why you are running out of endurance perhaps we just can't wrap our heads around it.
And please don't post about how there should be more than one way to build a character, duh of course there is, this is CoH, probably the most flexible MMO around. There simply might be a few ways to improve your builds that everyone could constructively add to.
Without being able to see your actual problems we can only guess.
This thread is now about Magic: The Gathering decks. 
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...
...
No?
Dangit.
Well, that was a fun read. Personally, I don't really see an issue with endurance. It tends to be much more forgiving than MP in most other MMORPs that I've played ... and there are many more ways to recover it (often instantly and repeatedly). I've been gone for a year or two, and I've really enjoyed my time back so far. I'm an altaholic, I have 62 characters, 43 of them are 30+, 5 of them have Stamina. The others do not feel gimped to me because of that. I rarely find myself needing to rest. I do NOT have remotely "optimal" builds for the most part, I generally rely on SOs or standard IOs. I regularly get complimented on my contributions to teams.
Oh, and awhile back someone mentioned that Build Up was a defining Blaster power ... my 3 /Dev Blasters would like to disagree. =D
Lastly just for fun I rolled a FF/Rad defender mostly out of curiosity. I leveled him to 10, it took me about two hours of play time running entirely solo. However, it's important to realize that I tried to simulate a "newbie" player as best that I could. I used no vet powers, or booster pack abilities. I ran missions rather than hunting, and I read every bit of mission story line, clues, etc. Though I did pretend that I didn't know to look at the information attached to some abilities, therefore I kept Sprint running the whole time not knowing that it was using end. At level 6 I chose Combat Jumping and ran it constantly as well. I had to actually rest about 6 times total. The rest of the time my natural recovery was enough, or I had insps to use ... or combine (they drop really often if you always keep a slot open.)
The time breakdown was as follows:
Outbreak - 7:06.0
Lvl 3 - 15:02.5 (Most of that time was spent running from place to place)
Lvl 4 - 25:45.9
Lvl 5 - 39.52.7
Lvl 6 - 53:39.0
Lvl 7 - 62:01.4
Lvl 8 - 77:36.2
Lvl 9 - 94:15.7
Lvl 10 - 120:06.3
If someone really wanted to level one quickly, I have no doubt that they could do much better.
I actually had a blast leveling this fella, though I'm a little miffed that I named him Neutron Guy and put him on Champion ... I'll have to remake him on Virtue with a better name. I do believe I'll focus on him once I'm done with the Dual Pistols / Dev Blaster I'm currently on. Thanks for the suggestion.
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You rested 6 times? However did you get to lvl 10 only fighting 6 spawns? Cheeter!
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Originally Posted by JackONight
Well, that was a fun read. Personally, I don't really see an issue with endurance. It tends to be much more forgiving than MP in most other MMORPs that I've played ... and there are many more ways to recover it (often instantly and repeatedly). I've been gone for a year or two, and I've really enjoyed my time back so far. I'm an altaholic, I have 62 characters, 43 of them are 30+, 5 of them have Stamina. The others do not feel gimped to me because of that. I rarely find myself needing to rest. I do NOT have remotely "optimal" builds for the most part, I generally rely on SOs or standard IOs. I regularly get complimented on my contributions to teams.
Oh, and awhile back someone mentioned that Build Up was a defining Blaster power ... my 3 /Dev Blasters would like to disagree. =D Lastly just for fun I rolled a FF/Rad defender mostly out of curiosity. I leveled him to 10, it took me about two hours of play time running entirely solo. However, it's important to realize that I tried to simulate a "newbie" player as best that I could. I used no vet powers, or booster pack abilities. I ran missions rather than hunting, and I read every bit of mission story line, clues, etc. Though I did pretend that I didn't know to look at the information attached to some abilities, therefore I kept Sprint running the whole time not knowing that it was using end. At level 6 I chose Combat Jumping and ran it constantly as well. I had to actually rest about 6 times total. The rest of the time my natural recovery was enough, or I had insps to use ... or combine (they drop really often if you always keep a slot open.) The time breakdown was as follows: Outbreak - 7:06.0 Lvl 3 - 15:02.5 (Most of that time was spent running from place to place) Lvl 4 - 25:45.9 Lvl 5 - 39.52.7 Lvl 6 - 53:39.0 Lvl 7 - 62:01.4 Lvl 8 - 77:36.2 Lvl 9 - 94:15.7 Lvl 10 - 120:06.3 If someone really wanted to level one quickly, I have no doubt that they could do much better. I actually had a blast leveling this fella, though I'm a little miffed that I named him Neutron Guy and put him on Champion ... I'll have to remake him on Virtue with a better name. I do believe I'll focus on him once I'm done with the Dual Pistols / Dev Blaster I'm currently on. Thanks for the suggestion. |
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So far we've learned that you're a vet (your first two paragraphs indicate this), you enjoy the game (good), you breezed through the part of the leveling process that everybody agrees is quick and easy, while aiming to mimic a novice, and you stopped short of the level 11-19 part of the leveling up process that many are reporting presents more challenges for endurance management.
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Originally Posted by JackONight
Well, that was a fun read. Personally, I don't really see an issue with endurance. It tends to be much more forgiving than MP in most other MMORPs that I've played ... and there are many more ways to recover it (often instantly and repeatedly). I've been gone for a year or two, and I've really enjoyed my time back so far. I'm an altaholic, I have 62 characters, 43 of them are 30+, 5 of them have Stamina. The others do not feel gimped to me because of that. I rarely find myself needing to rest. I do NOT have remotely "optimal" builds for the most part, I generally rely on SOs or standard IOs. I regularly get complimented on my contributions to teams.
Oh, and awhile back someone mentioned that Build Up was a defining Blaster power ... my 3 /Dev Blasters would like to disagree. =D Lastly just for fun I rolled a FF/Rad defender mostly out of curiosity. I leveled him to 10, it took me about two hours of play time running entirely solo. However, it's important to realize that I tried to simulate a "newbie" player as best that I could. I used no vet powers, or booster pack abilities. I ran missions rather than hunting, and I read every bit of mission story line, clues, etc. Though I did pretend that I didn't know to look at the information attached to some abilities, therefore I kept Sprint running the whole time not knowing that it was using end. At level 6 I chose Combat Jumping and ran it constantly as well. I had to actually rest about 6 times total. The rest of the time my natural recovery was enough, or I had insps to use ... or combine (they drop really often if you always keep a slot open.) The time breakdown was as follows: Outbreak - 7:06.0 Lvl 3 - 15:02.5 (Most of that time was spent running from place to place) Lvl 4 - 25:45.9 Lvl 5 - 39.52.7 Lvl 6 - 53:39.0 Lvl 7 - 62:01.4 Lvl 8 - 77:36.2 Lvl 9 - 94:15.7 Lvl 10 - 120:06.3 If someone really wanted to level one quickly, I have no doubt that they could do much better. I actually had a blast leveling this fella, though I'm a little miffed that I named him Neutron Guy and put him on Champion ... I'll have to remake him on Virtue with a better name. I do believe I'll focus on him once I'm done with the Dual Pistols / Dev Blaster I'm currently on. Thanks for the suggestion. |
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No, if he rested 6 times, he can't have fought more than 3 spawns, since he would have needed to rest halfway through each fight. I call shenanigans!
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
You rested 6 times? However did you get to lvl 10 only fighting 6 spawns? Cheeter!
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Wow.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
So far we've learned that you're a vet (your first two paragraphs indicate this), you enjoy the game (good), you breezed through the part of the leveling process that everybody agrees is quick and easy, while aiming to mimic a novice, and you stopped short of the level 11-19 part of the leveling up process that many are reporting presents more challenges for endurance management.
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I don't see you trying to provide any evidence. Why mock the guy who is trying to do so? Did he say that he was going to stop? No, he said he was going to start over on his home server. He was providing what information he had at the moment.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'm not suggesting revamping the whole game. I'm just suggesting that endurance costs could use a bit of evening out across the board. I mean, it does depend on the specific power sets, but some ATs generally use more endurance to achieve the same ends as others do. Tankers and Defenders are examples, but it's more complicated than simply boosting endurance for everyone. Certainly, that would help everyone, but it wouldn't level the playing field at all.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Er what? So did you want to have (for example) defenders use less endurance for their attacks, but use more for their buffs/debuffs?
For blasters, increase their damage to increase survivability? Tanks to use less endurance for their attacks, and balance that out by making them less tough, or have less HP? Scrappers.... Hell scrappers are perfect. Controllers... use less end for their holds and such, but increase end usage for their buffs/debuffs? Brutes, clearly need more end so that they can slot just damage in their attacks. That way, if they dont want to keep rushing around, they wont loose the whole bonus from fury. Balance by less hp and defence? Stalkers... No idea here... More hp perhaps? Less end in their defences, attacks are fine? MM's? Please refer to scrappers. Doms, much more end, so they dont have to build for domination as much? Lessen the mag on their mez's? Dont know, is that what you mean by balance? |
If you're asking how I would redesign the game from the ground up, I'll gladly describe that, but it would be long, largely off topic and unlikely to happen in any case.
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I've posted builds in the past when it's been requested, and the threads usually degenerate even further than this one did. They become little more than source material for the trolls to tell me how much I suck, and they're really beside the point since endurance issues have been reported and discussed by MANY other people. It's not about ME, no matter how much some people would like it to be.|
Originally Posted by PanDemonium
I think, Ultimo_, that you could deflect a lot of the aggro towards you if you posted a few of your builds for the generally benevolent forumites too look at.
You see, without having anyway to determine why you are running out of endurance perhaps we just can't wrap our heads around it. And please don't post about how there should be more than one way to build a character, duh of course there is, this is CoH, probably the most flexible MMO around. There simply might be a few ways to improve your builds that everyone could constructively add to. Without being able to see your actual problems we can only guess. |
Thus, I've declined to post the builds. That, and I don't favour the idea of posting 200 characters...
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In the smattering of players posting about endurance issues(not including you), the problems are nearly always resolved with a series of steps. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I've posted builds in the past when it's been requested, and the threads usually degenerate even further than this one did. They become little more than source material for the trolls to tell me how much I suck, and they're really beside the point since endurance issues have been reported and discussed by MANY other people. It's not about ME, no matter how much some people would like it to be.
Thus, I've declined to post the builds. That, and I don't favour the idea of posting 200 characters... |
1.Helpful forumites ask for a build.
2.Player provides build.
3.Helpful forumites make build suggestions.
4.Player uses those suggestions.
5.Problem solved.
You, however, have continually ignored 4 and 5. To the point of landing on ignore lists.
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Yes, I'm a vet. I've been on a break from CoX for the past couple of years, in that time I've spent time with WoW and Aion. Both are great games in their own right, but I figured I'd come back here for a bit. And yes, I enjoy CoX pretty much as it is. |
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
So far we've learned that you're a vet (your first two paragraphs indicate this), you enjoy the game (good), you breezed through the part of the leveling process that everybody agrees is quick and easy, while aiming to mimic a novice, and you stopped short of the level 11-19 part of the leveling up process that many are reporting presents more challenges for endurance management.
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Sorry, about not testing the 11-19 leveling with that character. Not everybody seemed to think that the "very early levels" were quick and easy with certain types of characters. And many times in the thread it was said that the problems are there across all levels. If 11-19 was mentioned specifically in the thread I missed it. I will play through 11-19, but I had just hit 32 with that Dual Pistols blaster, and I do have a store to run in real life.
I'll try to get some more playing/ testing done tomorrow. I do apologize for being a vet rather than a genuine newbie, but it's the best I can do. I do remember having more difficulty when I first started playing, but quite frankly not much.
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Luminara did a pretty good job sometime back. The Snow Storm bit was great, but the damage buff for defenders part really cracked me up
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Show me ANY "knowing untruth" I've posted. I NEVER deliberately mislead in ANY of my posts, and I find it VERY insulting to be accused of lying in this or any other way. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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That was beautifully brutal.
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Originally Posted by Reiraku
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Be well, people of CoH.
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You still missed 5a, in which the problem isn't solved and the "helpful" forumites refuse to accept that there may be a problem that their suggestions don't help.|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
In the smattering of players posting about endurance issues(not including you), the problems are nearly always resolved with a series of steps.
1.Helpful forumites ask for a build. 2.Player provides build. 3.Helpful forumites make build suggestions. 4.Player uses those suggestions. 5.Problem solved. You, however, have continually ignored 4 and 5. To the point of landing on ignore lists. |
Put another way, if it was just one or two builds, I could post them and it might be that the issue has to do with them. However, I'm not going to post hundreds of characters that are all having the same basic problem (though to differing extents), and I'm not going to go looking for builds from the many other people who have posted over the years complaining that endurance costs are excessive.
Again, the problem isn't with just a couple of builds or ATs, it's a general issue and I'm not the only nor the first person to comment on it.
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The post you linked to is off topic, but I'll say this:|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
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In essence, it was trying to tell me that what I actually saw happening with my own eyes didn't happen. That will always be an extraordiarily hard sell, no matter how much you all pat yourselves on the back for saying it.
It tried to tell me there had been no compaints that Defenders were weak solo (something which has been asserted in this thread by the same people that were telling me it isn't so).
It's actually an excellent example of why I don't post builds. It takes an example and focuses the attention of the thread entirely on that one example, thus diverting attention and discussion from the orignal point. Of course, the link doesn't show the whole thread, just one post taken out of context.
In any case, I'm not going to argue a nearly YEAR-old thread again.
I greatly encourage anyone interested to read the thread in its entirety. That was just one gem amongst many in it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
My other good one is a black cleric/zombie deck that kills you by sacrificing my creatures. Yes, you read that right.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.