The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Seriously, what power combination has endurance issues at 3?|
Originally Posted by rsclark
As soon as end gets tight?
So level 3 then? |
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| How many non-MM, non-hit-and-run stalkers, do you have without them? |
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The only technical way they could achieve that is to give everyone a new inherent power that's a weaker version of Stamina, and not let anyone slot it. Then you reduce Stamina by an equivalent amount.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Or, to put it another way, "raise base recovery" could simply mean a 10% boost added on top of the base recovery - all it means in the scope of this discussion is "the recovery you get without stamina", it doesn't need to be affected by any other powers at all. But of course, your intent is to make it seem more difficult to implement than it actually is in order to avoid having to actually discuss the core suggestion.
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Of course, you want it to work out to the same place when Stamina is slotted, and players can't slot it, you have to make it a larger proportion of unslotted Stamina. That means, then, that someone who takes Stamina and doesn't slot it actually comes out ahead compared to previously. As I mentioned earlier, then everyone else who uses anything other than Stamina to boost their recovery also comes out ahead - they just plain have more endurance recovery than before, both base and peak. You only achieve before/after parity for builds that have Stamina and ED slot it.
Certainly we think that's a lot of builds. Is it a doable change? It seems so, though the devs now have to define a new auto power and give it to every player AT. Of course, one has to wonder if the devs think that it's worth even thinking about. The people who want the performance they have today would still want Stamina. Some people who are on the fence would now have more room to skip Stamina. Some of those people might still want Swift/Hurdle or Health. So how many people who aren't already doing so would skip the Fitness pool. Is that number of people worth a balance change? Are there any other versions of the changes with more clearly limited chance for balance impact? "Beginner's Luck" type endurance discounts might be one (assuming even that is required).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm not sure I like the "Beginner's Luck for endurance" idea.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Are there any other versions of the changes with more clearly limited chance for balance impact? "Beginner's Luck" type endurance discounts might be one (assuming even that is required).
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Firstly, the levels that it would be strongest (1-10) are the levels you probably need it the least. Every AT has nearly the same AT mods, so their damage is close together (aside from Brutes). At these levels, player accuracy is pretty good, as well.
The worst levels, in my opion, are 10-20, are where the potency of Beginner's Luck tapers off anyways. For this reason, I don't think it would help that much. Well, that and it would really amplify the feeling that you're getting weaker as you level up. It happens now with Beginner's Luck (A), but it would be magnified with a second BL for endurance.
You know what helps me most from lvl1-20? Sands of Mu. Heightened accuracy due to BL, simulated enhanced damage, and a cone. This allows it to simultaneously speed up killing, save endurance, and not lose as much health per fight (the enemies are dead faster, so they have less time to deal damage). I abuse the heck out of it at low levels.
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If you had actually built properly, you wouldn't have had any issues to begin with. The rest is simply hyperbole. I do a fair amount of soloing, and I have rarely had to stand around unable to act.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I've been around for several years. I know how to build. All my characters have Stamina triple slotted and endurance reduction in every power. The point, which you've either missed or ignored, is that it's not fun standing around unable to act.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I'll admit I have made some concept builds, but I AM an experienced player. I HAVE taken advice.......
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The fact is, I'm not the only one that has said this, and it's been brought up countless times over the years. That suggests to me that there's some kind of a problem that needs to be examined.
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Edit: By the way, don't bother replying. I'm tired of you. It was only out of morbid curiosity that I bothered reading the OP to begin with. I agree with BZB....I shouldn't have made the mistake of adding to this rediculous thread in the first place. I'm far too familiar with your unique brand of obtuseness, but I guess I'm nearly as much a fool.
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Oh, I'm not sure I do either. I was just throwing out an alternative already mentioned elsewhere in the thread that wasn't clearly a boost to recovery.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I'm not sure I like the "Beginner's Luck for endurance" idea.
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Another big reason that SoM is very handy, by the way, is that it's an AoE. If can use it to hit multiple foes, it's a big chunk of DPE for those levels.
As an aside but related to your comments, it seems to that "Beginner's X" effects should probably last until a bit beyond level 20, perhaps level 25 (since the effects at the end of the range are small anyway). Ending at 20 still leaves a couple of levels before SOs can be slotted.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I am 100% in agreement with you on this Sarrate. The vet powers help out alot, especially if you also happen to be playing a toon that can lower defense of their opponents and make acc a non-issue. But how about any new players coming on board. Its safe to say that many of them will try solo-ing and run into that "tough-spot" in the teens. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I'm not sure I like the "Beginner's Luck for endurance" idea.
Firstly, the levels that it would be strongest (1-10) are the levels you probably need it the least. Every AT has nearly the same AT mods, so their damage is close together (aside from Brutes). At these levels, player accuracy is pretty good, as well. The worst levels, in my opion, are 10-20, are where the potency of Beginner's Luck tapers off anyways. For this reason, I don't think it would help that much. Well, that and it would really amplify the feeling that you're getting weaker as you level up. It happens now with Beginner's Luck (A), but it would be magnified with a second BL for endurance. You know what helps me most from lvl1-20? Sands of Mu. Heightened accuracy due to BL, simulated enhanced damage, and a cone. This allows it to simultaneously speed up killing, save endurance, and not lose as much health per fight (the enemies are dead faster, so they have less time to deal damage). I abuse the heck out of it at low levels. |
Not trying to suggest any changes myself, and I know that the more astute newbies will seek out help from the forums or other players in-game, but would say... changing all store-bought enhancements to SOs kinda solve this whole level to 20 question ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I agree that Sands of Mu helps a great deal with solo play 10-20. Even without it though, inspirations drop at such a rate that end usage is a non-factor most of the time. My most wind sucking character was a Stone/WP Brute. I simply made a habit of combining all inspirations to blues before level 20.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I'm not sure I like the "Beginner's Luck for endurance" idea.
Firstly, the levels that it would be strongest (1-10) are the levels you probably need it the least. Every AT has nearly the same AT mods, so their damage is close together (aside from Brutes). At these levels, player accuracy is pretty good, as well. The worst levels, in my opion, are 10-20, are where the potency of Beginner's Luck tapers off anyways. For this reason, I don't think it would help that much. Well, that and it would really amplify the feeling that you're getting weaker as you level up. It happens now with Beginner's Luck (A), but it would be magnified with a second BL for endurance. You know what helps me most from lvl1-20? Sands of Mu. Heightened accuracy due to BL, simulated enhanced damage, and a cone. This allows it to simultaneously speed up killing, save endurance, and not lose as much health per fight (the enemies are dead faster, so they have less time to deal damage). I abuse the heck out of it at low levels. |
I can see a problem in the 10-20 range for new players that haven't a clue about combining inspirations. Perhaps that single clue should be shown automatically at low levels to better educate new players. I use almost no inspirations soloing except blue ones 1-20.
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Although I've often thought that getting rid of TOs and DOs was a good idea, with IOs in the picture, it's easier than ever for a solo character to frankenslot early. I think educating new players about IOs and inspiration use is all that is necessary. Heck...even properly slotting DOs and good inspiration use is more than possible.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I am 100% in agreement with you on this Sarrate. The vet powers help out alot, especially if you also happen to be playing a toon that can lower defense of their opponents and make acc a non-issue. But how about any new players coming on board. Its safe to say that many of them will try solo-ing and run into that "tough-spot" in the teens.
Not trying to suggest any changes myself, and I know that the more astute newbies will seek out help from the forums or other players in-game, but would say... changing all store-bought enhancements to SOs kinda solve this whole level to 20 question ? |
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Except that those same new players are probably dirt-poor as well. So they also need to get involved as early as possible with Wents. I know that before IOs, I struggled to get influence just to keep my SOs current. Once IOs came around and I learned how to make inlfuence and build better, it got much better. Its kinda like every other MMO out there, once you get someone into the end-game, they can "rich uncle" any of your newbie characters, which makes leveling alts so much more enjoyable.
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
Although I've often thought that getting rid of TOs and DOs was a good idea, with IOs in the picture, it's easier than ever for a solo character to frankenslot early. I think educating new players about IOs and inspiration use is all that is necessary. Heck...even properly slotting DOs and good inspiration use is more than possible.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I agree it wouldnt hurt to have it mentioned. However, How long does it take a new player to figure out they can /em boombox.|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
I can see a problem in the 10-20 range for new players that haven't a clue about combining inspirations. Perhaps that single clue should be shown automatically at low levels to better educate new players. I use almost no inspirations soloing except blue ones 1-20.
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Part of the fun in a new game is figuring out all the little stuff. Sorry, part of the fun for ME in a game is figuring out the little stuff... If everything is explained, where is the excitement of discovery?
As I said though, sure, go ahead and explain it...
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I wonder if they could take some of the player created guides from the forums, and use them in game to explain systems like this. No offence to the dev's, but some of the player created guides do a MUCH better job at explaining things than the current in game introductions.
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
I think educating new players about IOs and inspiration use is all that is necessary. Heck...even properly slotting DOs and good inspiration use is more than possible.
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Wow I have to say I have missed most of the OP other fun filled threads. Its one thing to have a point and its another to tilting at windmills aginst the advice of what I consider the most knowledgeable players on the forums. I also might not agree with everyone one of them all the time but I do respect their collective wisdom and consider what they are saying and why when I am at odds with their advice or wisdom.
In this case END is major consideration in this game. Its one of your two critical statistics for a reason. Back in Issue 2-3 when I did not know what I was doing was the last time I had the issues you describe. I do have these issues on most of my lobie Brutes but I know its self inflicted and I can compensate for it.
While were on the topic of END my personal take on END. It is more important to me than my Green bar in so many ways. If I have END or can manage my END to the point I do not need to watch my Blue bar then most of my Green bar problems are not a problem. To me if I have blue I can usually do something about my green. Afterall I am trying to build a relentless/unstoppable Hero/Villain I certainly should have to work on my endurance and stamina abilities to fight on with out wheezing.
In this statement I am not agreeing with the OP I do not see END issues as the problem described or even tedious. I am a good player but not a great player and I have figured this out.
The DEV team certainly does use your END bar against you. Bad guys attack your abilities in a variety of ways through your health your stamina or mezz.
Red side post L39 END draining foes are more prevelent than ever they do this on purpose. Other than avoiding Malta or Carnie mission most figure out how to compensate when fighting such resourceful foes.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
I was struck by an idea while rereading Catwhoorg's post quoted earlier (thanks for that BTW). In it, the OP had claimed after a sequence of actions that he was 'out of end' and Cat provided us with the math to show he had to have at least 24-25% END remaining.
It reminded me of a discussion about Teleport. Part of that whole discussion was about END usage and the relative worth of showing up at a mission door fresh and ready to fight or popping in with your END bar at 30-50% or even less.
I think some players simply get uncomfortable when the bar drops below about 2/3 full. (Health or END bar, same situation, different causes) These players, if they get down to 25% or less are convinced they're going to run out of END/HP and panic. Maybe they run. Maybe they quit attacking or run into melee so they can use Brawl. Maybe they stop to fumble with their inspirations tray to make some blues/greens. When if they had simply kept going, maybe they'd actually finish the mob off.
These same folks would never want to start a fight without their bars topped off, for fear that they'd 'run dry' in the next fight.
I guess what I'm saying is, numbers may not lie, but our perception of their meaning is infinitely variable. If your build is at 1/3 END after an ordinary fight, you might be perfectly OK with that, while another player might be apoplectic.
Just food for thought - really doesn't change the discussion much I guess but it was on my (sorry excuse for a) mind and thought I'd trot it out there.
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Valid point, its all relative. However, the Op specifically said that he has to stand infront of the mob and take the hits and die because lack of end has left him no other options. Now I perceive that to mean he has absolutely no end. I also perceive that to be a bit of an exaggeration. Like one you could drive a truck through.
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Originally Posted by Tyrrano
I was struck by an idea while rereading Catwhoorg's post quoted earlier (thanks for that BTW). In it, the OP had claimed after a sequence of actions that he was 'out of end' and Cat provided us with the math to show he had to have at least 24-25% END remaining.
It reminded me of a discussion about Teleport. Part of that whole discussion was about END usage and the relative worth of showing up at a mission door fresh and ready to fight or popping in with your END bar at 30-50% or even less. I think some players simply get uncomfortable when the bar drops below about 2/3 full. (Health or END bar, same situation, different causes) These players, if they get down to 25% or less are convinced they're going to run out of END/HP and panic. Maybe they run. Maybe they quit attacking or run into melee so they can use Brawl. Maybe they stop to fumble with their inspirations tray to make some blues/greens. When if they had simply kept going, maybe they'd actually finish the mob off. These same folks would never want to start a fight without their bars topped off, for fear that they'd 'run dry' in the next fight. I guess what I'm saying is, numbers may not lie, but our perception of their meaning is infinitely variable. If your build is at 1/3 END after an ordinary fight, you might be perfectly OK with that, while another player might be apoplectic. Just food for thought - really doesn't change the discussion much I guess but it was on my (sorry excuse for a) mind and thought I'd trot it out there. |
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Right. And the devs are not in the business of giving everyone what they want. Just because everyone hates stopping, downtime and sucking wind is no reason to try and change it.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It's not that you have to have Stamina. It's that everyone wants to play non-stop.
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| Personally, I see it as fitting my concepts. They're heroes/villains who do lots of activity. They're fit. |
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I had a DM/Regen scrapper doing just fine without Stamina. *snip* In that case...make a Regen. Grab some IOs. Build an Electric Armor or a Kin...so many ways to do it. |
The lesson you should take away from this is do what everyone else tells you, build how they dictate with the power sets they choose for you and stop expecting to have fun if you do otherwise.
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I think end recovery abilities should exist in more sets, in particular I've wanted Spirit Tree/Triage Beacon to give it along with the regen buff for several reasons, not the least of which would be for slotting options. Something real low in number but still noticeable, since they are immobile and have long recharges, plus they stay thematic.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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*nod* That's fair, and your stance doesn't surprise me.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh, I'm not sure I do either. I was just throwing out an alternative already mentioned elsewhere in the thread that wasn't clearly a boost to recovery.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Another big reason that SoM is very handy, by the way, is that it's an AoE. If can use it to hit multiple foes, it's a big chunk of DPE for those levels.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
As an aside but related to your comments, it seems to that "Beginner's X" effects should probably last until a bit beyond level 20, perhaps level 25 (since the effects at the end of the range are small anyway). Ending at 20 still leaves a couple of levels before SOs can be slotted.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I am 100% in agreement with you on this Sarrate. The vet powers help out alot, especially if you also happen to be playing a toon that can lower defense of their opponents and make acc a non-issue. But how about any new players coming on board. Its safe to say that many of them will try solo-ing and run into that "tough-spot" in the teens.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Not trying to suggest any changes myself, and I know that the more astute newbies will seek out help from the forums or other players in-game, but would say... changing all store-bought enhancements to SOs kinda solve this whole level to 20 question ?
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I wonder if it would make more sense to lessen the difference between Acc TOs, DOs, and SOs. In other words, instead of the 8/16/33 progression we currently have, maybe have them progress 16/24/33 or something. Why acc in particular? Well, with less slots necessary to hit reliably, players would be more free to use the other slots on damage, without nearly as much inflation as just giving everyone SOs would have.
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
I can see a problem in the 10-20 range for new players that haven't a clue about combining inspirations. Perhaps that single clue should be shown automatically at low levels to better educate new players. I use almost no inspirations soloing except blue ones 1-20.
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As an aside, there are many ways to handle resource management. Our current system is harsher at low levels, but by high levels is much easier to manage. (More slots, stronger enhancers, IOs, Stamina, more insp slots, etc.) It provides a very real sense of progression. After getting through the lower levels, things start to become easier to manage. Look back at low levels and you can see you're better. Not saying whether that's good or bad, just what we have.
Take a look at other mechanics out there:
For example, in Champions Online, all players get a power that builds endurance which they can then (fairly rapidly) deplete. (Blocking also generates end. The pro is the player knows that if they take a break from using end draining attacks, they'll have more to spend. On the negative, they're likely to always have to break and generate more end, even at higher levels. Unlike here, they can't "outgrow" their end builders. (Some builds might, but I've never really seen it.) Also, you don't start at full end, but somewhere between 25% and 75% or so (depending on build/equipment). So you may not be able to launch large alpha strikes.
So, here you may do this before getting end under control:
Attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, wait, attack, wait, attack, wait, attack
While at high levels:
Attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack
There (wait = auto attack):
Attack, wait, attack, attack, wait, attack, attack, wait, attack, attack, wait
Which is better / would you prefer?
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Wow Johnny... Couldnt have said it better myself.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Right. And the devs are not in the business of giving people who have no idea what game balance is, and people who want to build a defblasttankscraptrollebrutenatoralker what they want. Just because a few people dont know how to use the tools the devs have already given us is no reason to try and change it.
Right. If they were built better, without the expectaion of being a tankmage they would be suprised they may actually be able to have fun. Makes perfect sense then that our builds, playstyles and expectations need to change. Yes, Ultimo_, stop being an idiot and try to actually use a few of the plethora of recomendations made rather than ***** and moan. Stop posting about things you have no concept of, stick with whether Triple H would be the best Thor. Leave the game mechanics to people that understand it. It's not the devs fault the powers you choose don't do exactly what you want them to. It's perfectly fair for some power sets to have advantages that everyone wants and disadvantages that are worth it when looked at the whole set. And it's also perfectly fair for other power sets to trivialize the disadvantages of your set when teaming. That makes the game interesting. And if your concept happens to call for something that is not possible in the game, then I guess you will need to compromise and figure out what qualities of it are most important to you.. The lesson you should take away from this is at least give what people suggest a shot. Expect that if you are going to build "out of the box" perhaps you will have some successes, and some builds that dont work so well. The important thing is if your expectations are not so unreasonable and broken, you may just have fun. . |
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Except that's not what he said. If you have to put words in his mouth so blatantly, then your position must be REALLY tenuous.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Wow Johnny... Couldnt have said it better myself.
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The lesson I take from all of this is one I learned years ago; two of the main posters on these forums to NOT listen to are Ultimo_ and Jonny_Butane.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The lesson you should take away from this is do what everyone else tells you, build how they dictate with the power sets they choose for you and stop expecting to have fun if you do otherwise.
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Pretty simple really.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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The lesson I take from all this is that if anyone other than that particular little clique has the audacity to post anything like a suggestion, that they will circle the wagons and make (often very) personal attacks until the thread's purpose is lost under a pile of ****.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The lesson I take from all of this is one I learned years ago; two of the main posters on these forums to NOT listen to are Ultimo_ and Jonny_Butane.
Pretty simple really. |
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Important stuff in bold.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Except that's not what he said. If you have to put words in his mouth so blatantly, then your position must be REALLY tenuous.
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| You can't bring yourself to admit that you're not the foremost expert on Co* mechanics (despite not even being capable of figuring out what powers do when you have Mids' and in-game descriptions available) or character design, or that this is just another one of your historically typical attempts to con the developers into changing the game so you can have your tankmage, so you keep coming back and arguing with or threatening mod action against anyone who dares to use facts or reasonable advice to refute your self-imposed, imaginary problems. |
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Hey now. All of their posts are doubleplusgood!|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The lesson I take from all this is that if anyone other than that particular little clique has the audacity to post anything like a suggestion, that they will circle the wagons and make (often very) personal attacks until the thread's purpose is lost under a pile of ****.
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I think the OP is somewhat right. The end problems are something that could drive people away from the game, and that's a bad thing if we want the game to survive. Building characters properly helps, somewhat.
One thing I think that might help is just to alter Rest a little, so that when clicking on it you get back end BEFORE hp. It's a little sad when you can be fully healed, and still not have all your end back. Perhaps altering it so that as soon as you click it you start regaining end, and there's an interrupt delay on getting back hp? I believe that reducing the downtime a little without removing the end constraints from the fighting should work.
That was great. Bill was a bit over board, but the rest of the thread was very fun to read.
Welcome back Ultimo.