The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Generalizing isn't always very nice either. I don't recall remotely attacking you. I simply disagree with your position. I've used every powerset in the game in one combination or another, and I've never really had the issues that you describe. Part of it may be what someone else mentioned about perceiving the need to have full bars when going into battle, I tend to have full bars when I enter a mission, after that it hardly ever happens. But, very very seldom am I ever just waiting to do something. You report a different experience, that's fair ... I don't understand it, but I'm also not behind your desk chair watching you.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The lesson I take from all this is that if anyone other than that particular little clique has the audacity to post anything like a suggestion, that they will circle the wagons and make (often very) personal attacks until the thread's purpose is lost under a pile of ****.
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Incidentally, at the very beginning of this thread you mentioned that this whole thing came about after having played other games you noticed that CoH was comparatively tedious because of current endurance mechanics. Do you mind me asking which MMORPGs that you tried out? I've played a number of them, and I've never come across a more power/spell friendly system. However, I do like new things and I certainly wouldn't mind trying the ones you were playing.
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You're correct, You've been respectful in the past and none of my defensive comments are meant for you or other respectful posters. I'm sorry you got caught in the crossfire. I have absolutely no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, I just ask that they do so without being disagreeable.|
Originally Posted by JackONight
Generalizing isn't always very nice either. I don't recall remotely attacking you. I simply disagree with your position. I've used every powerset in the game in one combination or another, and I've never really had the issues that you describe. Part of it may be what someone else mentioned about perceiving the need to have full bars when going into battle, I tend to have full bars when I enter a mission, after that it hardly ever happens. But, very very seldom am I ever just waiting to do something. You report a different experience, that's fair ... I don't understand it, but I'm also not behind your desk chair watching you.
Incidentally, at the very beginning of this thread you mentioned that this whole thing came about after having played other games you noticed that CoH was comparatively tedious because of current endurance mechanics. Do you mind me asking which MMORPGs that you tried out? I've played a number of them, and I've never come across a more power/spell friendly system. However, I do like new things and I certainly wouldn't mind trying the ones you were playing. |
Again, I apologize if you feel you've been slighted in any way.
I spend most of my time in Lord of the Rings Online, Star Trek Online and DDO, though I've played other games (not WoW or Everquest, though). I've found that I don't have nearly the same issues in those games. Galaxies is another that suffers somewhat from this, but in that game I was playing a Crafter and didn't do much combat.
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It's a very personal attack to state [REDACTED]|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The lesson I take from all this is that if anyone other than that particular little clique has the audacity to post anything like a suggestion, that they will circle the wagons and make (often very) personal attacks until the thread's purpose is lost under a pile of ****.
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It's very much an observation of facts to say that you're a liar. Because you've lied, and you lied about lying and you've lied about lying about being a liar.
That said... you're not looking to do the impossible. You want an Iron Man analogue? It's very doable. But you don't do it by saying 'I have a defender, I will say he's Iron Man, therefore he should be able to do what Iron Man does.'
I have on my hard drive, a variety of builds that do some truly astounding things, by comparison to what their classes are 'supposed' to do. My empath is useless for healing, but runs around in laser fire untouchable and can slam down his nuke every fifteen seconds. He is without a doubt, a powerful character*, and he is doing the kind of thing you sound like you want to be done.
But it was not done easily, and it was not done by me mashing my face against the keyboard. I had to make decisions and learn to build and build well.
If you really do want these powerful characters, your best bet is not to complain on the forums, but to actually learn how to design and shape characters well. Don't just ask what people are doing, ask why they're doing it. Learn. And you will find yourself all the richer for it.
You cannot build 'outside the box' if you have no idea how to build inside the box. I am reminded of Johnny Butane's whining about tankers needing more damage; I have a tanker who routinely hits his own damage cap and obliterates spawns before scrappers can catch up. How much more damage should I have? I worked hard to build that character to do that kind of thing, after all.
* Frustratingly, since part of the character's concept is that he's not the powerful one, it's all his friends getting the buffs who are drawing on themselves, not the sidekick.
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I agree that using the market is important for a beginning solo character. I disagree that any character needs a 'rich uncle'. Influence is remarkably easy to come by solo now. Simply sell most of your drops and you should have sufficient money to frankenslot in the mid teens. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Except that those same new players are probably dirt-poor as well. So they also need to get involved as early as possible with Wents. I know that before IOs, I struggled to get influence just to keep my SOs current. Once IOs came around and I learned how to make inlfuence and build better, it got much better. Its kinda like every other MMO out there, once you get someone into the end-game, they can "rich uncle" any of your newbie characters, which makes leveling alts so much more enjoyable.
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It's fairly important to plan a bit ahead, so the idea of getting new players involved with WWs early is a good idea.
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I wanted to quote this to make sure Ultimo saw it but that assumes I'm not ignored either...
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
It's a very personal attack to state [REDACTED]
It's very much an observation of facts to say that you're a liar. Because you've lied, and you lied about lying and you've lied about lying about being a liar. That said... you're not looking to do the impossible. You want an Iron Man analogue? It's very doable. But you don't do it by saying 'I have a defender, I will say he's Iron Man, therefore he should be able to do what Iron Man does.' I have on my hard drive, a variety of builds that do some truly astounding things, by comparison to what their classes are 'supposed' to do. My empath is useless for healing, but runs around in laser fire untouchable and can slam down his nuke every fifteen seconds. He is without a doubt, a powerful character*, and he is doing the kind of thing you sound like you want to be done. But it was not done easily, and it was not done by me mashing my face against the keyboard. I had to make decisions and learn to build and build well. If you really do want these powerful characters, your best bet is not to complain on the forums, but to actually learn how to design and shape characters well. Don't just ask what people are doing, ask why they're doing it. Learn. And you will find yourself all the richer for it. You cannot build 'outside the box' if you have no idea how to build inside the box. I am reminded of Johnny Butane's whining about tankers needing more damage; I have a tanker who routinely hits his own damage cap and obliterates spawns before scrappers can catch up. How much more damage should I have? I worked hard to build that character to do that kind of thing, after all. * Frustratingly, since part of the character's concept is that he's not the powerful one, it's all his friends getting the buffs who are drawing on themselves, not the sidekick. |
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Yeah, I like this suggestion. It makes alot of sense as opposed to the current system where you have considerably fewer slots to enhance and they are at 1/4 strength until 12th. Then at 1/2 strength. And a change like this would not favor any AT.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
...
I wonder if it would make more sense to lessen the difference between Acc TOs, DOs, and SOs. In other words, instead of the 8/16/33 progression we currently have, maybe have them progress 16/24/33 or something. Why acc in particular? Well, with less slots necessary to hit reliably, players would be more free to use the other slots on damage, without nearly as much inflation as just giving everyone SOs would have. ... |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Hehe, my apologies for how I worded my post. I was actually trying to say just that very thing. Influence was relatively difficult to come by (to me) until IOs and Wents came about. Even after they came out, I stayed away from it all for quite awhile telling myself that when I made 50, THEN I would get involved in all these recipes/IO sets/salvage etc...|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
I agree that using the market is important for a beginning solo character. I disagree that any character needs a 'rich uncle'. Influence is remarkably easy to come by solo now. Simply sell most of your drops and you should have sufficient money to frankenslot in the mid teens.
It's fairly important to plan a bit ahead, so the idea of getting new players involved with WWs early is a good idea. |
But then a Miracle happened. No really ! A Miracle +rec recipe dropped from a mission in Brickstown. Sold it for a nice 60 million, which was about 30 times as much influence as I had ever had at one time and Wentworths became one of my favorite places to visit.
Actual Newbies would be well advised to check out some guides on buying and selling, because I have built characters (recently even) without giving them a slush fund who were easily able to get to level 20 and have a few million in their pockets.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I spoke of no clique, nor did I make a personal attack.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The lesson I take from all this is that if anyone other than that particular little clique has the audacity to post anything like a suggestion, that they will circle the wagons and make (often very) personal attacks until the thread's purpose is lost under a pile of ****.
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I can read and make decisions on my own, thank you very much, and nothing I have ever read that you have posted about game mechanics has ever been, in any way, helpful.
That is not anything against you has a person.
This is, of course, one of the reasons you are so hard to deal with, because you cannot see that difference.
You, Johnny_Butane and others that think similarly, want the game to be something it is not. Rather than accepting what it is and building characters within that framework, you choose to want to alter it.
I abhor that point of view and those sorts of arguments bore me.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
You, Johnny_Butane and others that think similarly, want the game to be something it is not.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I just want the game to be fun for everyone, not just for min maxers with the "right" power sets/build or power gamers with their own PL cliques and farm fresh IOs.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I abhor that point of view and those sorts of arguments bore me.
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You can say you're a hippo all you want, but that doesn't mean you can lick crocodiles.
The point of view you claim to espouse is flagrantly at odds with the actions you want taken to support it. You drape your ideas and your rhetoric in the flag of the greater good while beneath clutching tightly to your entirely immature selfishness.
That might qualify as a personal attack, but whatever - it's true. You claim you're seeking A, but you're not. The ideas you espouse for it aren't seeking A, they're much more likely seeking X, which just happens to make you feel good, so you fool yourself into thinking it's A.
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Uh.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I just want the game to be fun for everyone, not just for min maxers with the "right" power sets/build or power gamers with their own PL cliques and farm fresh IOs..
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I can say with absolute certainty that if you think any of those things is required to be successful or to have fun (or any interrelated combination of the two) then you are "doing it wrong".
When large numbers of people come along and point out to you that your position doesn't seem reasonable, or that your experiences don't seem at all common, it seems worthwhile to at least consider that they might be on to something. To instead claim that all those people are in collusion to misrepresent the truth doesn't seem reasonable, especially when they don't really know one another.
About all I have in common with most of the people on the same general side with me in this thread is that a lot of them are veterans, and apparently most of us are pretty successful at playing the game. Hell, I argue a fair bit with some of the folks in this thread. It's not like we're some consistent opinion block come to unify against you.
I know I have generally only ever played "FotM" characters by accident, often before were recognized as such. I typically solo all the way to 50, not teaming until I get there (I play 50s a lot). I don't have anything anyone would call a good farming character. Despite that I'm stupidly wealthy in game, and have what I consider plenty of 50s, most of whom got there without much outside help.
This game is not hard. Endurance management is not hard. Even if it's not fun for you to manage your endurance, it's almost ludicrously easy to gain levels and get to the point where endurance is much easier to manage. The notion that it takes a Regen or something with comparable endurance tools to be able to manageable endurance reasonably is just silly. It doesn't just not jive with everyone's experiences, it doesn't even jive that well with the math for the game's mechanics.
This game has an existing balance framework, and other than ED and IOs, it hasn't changed much in six years. I've been embracing that framework since I started playing the game. Not because I love everything about it, but because I find everything about it manageable, and because by working with it, I can make excellent, highly effective characters. They aren't all good at the same things, but they are all very good at something, and they're all capable fighters. I don't particularly care if they don't all fight with the same level of capability - all I particularly care about is that each one function as best as possible for that character, given their AT and powerset choices. Try working with the system some time, instead of at cross purposes. I know I have more fun that way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And what is required is just about everyone taking the same power pool with two autopowers they likely don't want to get the one they do? Just to get the game to a point where the mechanic the devs admit everyone hates isn't absolutely crushing their fun any more?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I can say with absolute certainty that if you think any of those things is required to be successful or to have fun (or any interrelated combination of the two) then you are "doing it wrong".
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| When large numbers of people come along and point out to you that your position doesn't seem reasonable, or that your experiences don't seem at all common, it seems worthwhile to at least consider that they might be on to something. |
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| About all I have in common with most of the people on the same general side with me in this thread is that a lot of them are veterans, and apparently most of us are pretty successful at playing the game. |
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| Hell, I argue a fair bit with some of the folks in this thread. It's not like we're some consistent opinion block come to unify against you. |
Listen, I've danced this dance over many issues. There's been many times now that people were flaming me for suggestions on changing things that the devs later changed, often along the lines as I was advocating. I don't claim I was the motivating factor, but the syndicate of a dozen or so people who always turn out to troll me or Ultimo_ have been off the mark enough to demonstrate that they aren't the final say on game design they think they are.
For someone who is such an idiot who's ideas would destroy the game, three years later the game is closer to what I've been talking about than ever, and you're still playing it.
I used to have a laundry list of things I wanted to see changed and improved upon. Thanks to the devs I've been able to strike most of them off. Not as soon as I would have liked, but even I have to admit the future of the game has been brighter this past year and a half. I've still got a couple big ticket items left, but they could end up surprising both of us any day now.
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I actually haven't tried any of those. =) I'll have to give one or two a go in a few months. A good friend of mine spent some time in LotRO, he was unimpressed, He prefers being able to defeat EBs even con while solo. Apparently that's pretty tough to do over there.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I spend most of my time in Lord of the Rings Online, Star Trek Online and DDO, though I've played other games (not WoW or Everquest, though). I've found that I don't have nearly the same issues in those games. Galaxies is another that suffers somewhat from this, but in that game I was playing a Crafter and didn't do much combat.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I just want the game to be fun for everyone, not just for min maxers with the "right" power sets/build or power gamers with their own PL cliques and farm fresh IOs.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And what is required is just about everyone taking the same power pool with two autopowers they likely don't want to get the one they do? Just to get the game to a point where the mechanic the devs admit everyone hates isn't absolutely crushing their fun any more?
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Thank you very much UberGuy. This post mimics my experience and opinions exactly.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Uh.
I can say with absolute certainty that if you think any of those things is required to be successful or to have fun (or any interrelated combination of the two) then you are "doing it wrong". When large numbers of people come along and point out to you that your position doesn't seem reasonable, or that your experiences don't seem at all common, it seems worthwhile to at least consider that they might be on to something. To instead claim that all those people are in collusion to misrepresent the truth doesn't seem reasonable, especially when they don't really know one another. About all I have in common with most of the people on the same general side with me in this thread is that a lot of them are veterans, and apparently most of us are pretty successful at playing the game. Hell, I argue a fair bit with some of the folks in this thread. It's not like we're some consistent opinion block come to unify against you. I know I have generally only ever played "FotM" characters by accident, often before were recognized as such. I typically solo all the way to 50, not teaming until I get there (I play 50s a lot). I don't have anything anyone would call a good farming character. Despite that I'm stupidly wealthy in game, and have what I consider plenty of 50s, most of whom got there without much outside help. This game is not hard. Endurance management is not hard. Even if it's not fun for you to manage your endurance, it's almost ludicrously easy to gain levels and get to the point where endurance is much easier to manage. The notion that it takes a Regen or something with comparable endurance tools to be able to manageable endurance reasonably is just silly. It doesn't just not jive with everyone's experiences, it doesn't even jive that well with the math for the game's mechanics. This game has an existing balance framework, and other than ED and IOs, it hasn't changed much in six years. I've been embracing that framework since I started playing the game. Not because I love everything about it, but because I find everything about it manageable, and because by working with it, I can make excellent, highly effective characters. They aren't all good at the same things, but they are all very good at something, and they're all capable fighters. I don't particularly care if they don't all fight with the same level of capability - all I particularly care about is that each one function as best as possible for that character, given their AT and powerset choices. Try working with the system some time, instead of at cross purposes. I know I have more fun that way. |
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No apologies needed Biospark. I agree with you completely that pre WWs, Influence was a big issue. You bring a good perspective about using WWs properly....in other words, selling drops and frankenslotting early in a characters' career. I admit I take for granted that I'm filthy rich, with barely any involvement in flipping. I've leveled enough characters solo to have each one self-sufficient from day one. Educating new players in doing the same thing should be top priority in keeping them. Thanks a bunch for being an upright guy.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Hehe, my apologies for how I worded my post. I was actually trying to say just that very thing. Influence was relatively difficult to come by (to me) until IOs and Wents came about. Even after they came out, I stayed away from it all for quite awhile telling myself that when I made 50, THEN I would get involved in all these recipes/IO sets/salvage etc...
But then a Miracle happened. No really ! A Miracle +rec recipe dropped from a mission in Brickstown. Sold it for a nice 60 million, which was about 30 times as much influence as I had ever had at one time and Wentworths became one of my favorite places to visit. Actual Newbies would be well advised to check out some guides on buying and selling, because I have built characters (recently even) without giving them a slush fund who were easily able to get to level 20 and have a few million in their pockets. |
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I think this thread is rather firm proof that not everyone hates the mechanic. While I certainly don't love it, I just see it as a progress goal to be achieved, just like getting to level 22 for SOs, 32/38 for my "tier 9" powers, 41 for epics, and 50 for ... being 50.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And what is required is just about everyone taking the same power pool with two autopowers they likely don't want to get the one they do? Just to get the game to a point where the mechanic the devs admit everyone hates isn't absolutely crushing their fun any more?
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Also, I almost always want the two Fitness prerequisites, and I'm not just pulling your leg. I recently built a Regen Scrapper who I decided to skip Fitness on so I could take a different power pool. A Regen doesn't need Health much, but it regularly bugs me a ton that this Scrapper runs slower than all my other characters. On everyone that's not a Regen or something similar, I really want Health - it's a huge boon to survival, especially characters with good +Defense or +Resistance.
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| "Everyone knows the universe revolves around the Earth, Johnny_Copernicus!" |
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| Right. And OPEC are just a bunch of guys who all like digging holes. |
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| Listen, I've danced this dance over many issues. There's been many times now that people were flaming me for suggestions on changing things that the devs later changed, often along the lines as I was advocating. I don't claim I was the motivating factor, but the syndicate of a dozen or so people who always turn out to troll me or Ultimo_ have been off the mark enough to demonstrate that they aren't the final say on game design they think they are. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As an aside.......My most successful Magic decks have been my Black discard deck, and my Red/Blue land destruction deck. I haven't played in years, but this brings back some fond memories of opponents groaning in agony.
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At HeroCon and previous gatherings, when asked about endurance, Fitness or Stamina,the first thing out of Positron's mouth has been, "yeah, we know you guys hate having the take Stamina" and "yeah, we know there's problems with the mechanic".|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think this thread is rather firm proof that not everyone hates the mechanic.
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Here's a direct quote on the subject of making Stamina inherent:
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| We've tried to make Stamina less a required power with a lot of the things IO's do. Any discussion on Stamina generally leads to the elimination of Endurance altogether (because a lot of the reason Staminia is so popular is that is lets you no longer worry about Endurance for the most part). i.e. Making Stamina an inherent means we might as well eliminate Endurance from the game. |
Enough people are still complaining about endurance in the lower levels for this to still be considered something the devs should be looking into. And for the record, I never said the devs weren't, in fact I said quite the opposite earlier in this thread. I see continual signs of them working on the endurance issues, either directly or indirectly, and that fact alone validates that the mechanic is disliked.
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| Also, I almost always want the two Fitness prerequisites, and I'm not just pulling your leg. I recently built a Regen Scrapper who I decided to skip Fitness on so I could take a different power pool. A Regen doesn't need Health much, but it regularly bugs me a ton that this Scrapper runs slower than all my other characters. |
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| On everyone that's not a Regen or something similar, I almost lways want Health - it's a huge boon to survival, especially characters with good +Defense or +Resistance. |
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| Nice try, but the difference is that we've all had the game's analogy equivalent of flying around the solar system. We're all coming back and talking about what we saw, and you're part of a small number of people claiming it was totally different than the rest of is. |
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| Opec has a monopoly to run. What's our excuse? Do you think NCSoft is paying us to disagree with you? |
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| I'm genuinely interested in what this list of implemented suggestions was. |
You've been better than some in this thread, and that's why I'm even responding to you. But you're standing in the same light as some others, both now and in the past, and that's coloring my opinion of you negatively.
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This is a perfect example of hyperbole. There have been far more threads asking for AT Respecs than problems with endurance over the years. As well as many other outrageous demands. Show us some evidence if you're so sure in your stance. Like Ultimo_, you have continually lacked proper evidence in your claims. The both of you have absolutely no sympathy nor respect from me.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Enough people are still complaining about endurance in the lower levels for this to still be considered something the devs should be looking into. |
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Your side in this argument is that this is a problem that needs address. Using hyperbole the way you did exaggerates your position, suggesting that you have a stronger basis for your argument than you actually do. Leaving that unaddressed leaves you looking better off in this discussion than you actually are. Sorry, but I'm not going to do that.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The devs are well aware many people hate the mechanic. Saying "everyone" hates it is hyperbole. "Everyone" hates bee stings but you'll still find some fool who gets off on it. I shouldn't have to explain a figure of speech to you.
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| Enough people are still complaining about endurance in the lower levels for this to still be considered something the devs should be looking into. |
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| Do you mean run as in Sprint or run as in operate? |
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| I've always found the in-combat survivability the 40% regen brings to be negligible unless you're stacking regen from IO bonuses. It obviously cuts down on downtime due healing faster between spawns, but unless you're always running in with less than full health, I don't see it as a huge survival boon. |
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| Actually, it's closer to going on a class field trip rockhounding and "the rest of you" bringing back quartz and telling the kids who didn't come that you found precious gems while myself and others are trying to get the fee reduced so less fortunate students would be able to join in on the fun in the future. |
No one is taking this away from you. You just don't think you should have to make an effort here. The rest of us make it past the difficulties of endurance, and have done so since before any of the mitigations the devs have introduced. I don't look gift horses in the mouth, but I already had a full stable.
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| I think the opposition's motivation is that they've got the game pretty much where they want it and will say anything not to rock the boat. |
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| They don't don't want their "accomplishments" to be diminished and let the "nubs" have it easier than they did. They sure don't mind people begging them for build advice, though. If they could, they'd stick a a little veteran pin on their e-peen so everyone would rightfully know to look up to them unquestioningly. |
In every such system which tries to create that sense of accomplishment, there will be people who think it's an annoyance and too hard, and people who think it's pathetically easy and thus boring. It's impossible to find a middle ground that will please everyone. Positron pointed out that the "solution" to the endurance "problem" ultimately removes Endurance from the game in the limit. You'll notice that they haven't done that, even though they could. Do you ever wonder why?
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| I'm genuinely not interested in sharing it with you. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Funny you should bring up respecs. I remember a time, when aside from the vet respecs, the only way to respec was to run the trial, and even then you could only do so a certain number of times. When I posted suggesting people should be able to earn infinite respecs on a character, and even be able to save a couple preset builds, some all too familiar faces flamed me that it would destroy the game. Apparently it would cause an epidemic of people respecing before every TF and causing hold ups. This was of course, a few short months before the invention system brought respec recipies to us all, and quite some time before the dual builds feature.|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
This is a perfect example of hyperbole. There have been far more threads asking for AT Respecs than problems with endurance over the years.
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I'll also point out that the thread they linked to earlier mentioned increasing Defender damage, which they ALSO did (even though I was flamed vigorously for suggesting it).
Hmm. Maybe I do have some magic ability to influence the devs.
(or maybe I'm actually identifying problems that need worked on?)
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Even a broken clock is right twice a day...
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I'll also point out that the thread they linked to earlier mentioned increasing Defender damage, which they ALSO did (even though I was flamed vigorously for suggesting it).
Hmm. Maybe I do have some magic ability to influence the devs. (or maybe I'm actually identifying problems that need worked on?) |
First of all, congratulations if you've managed to read the thread this far...
While I do think there is a problem with game-play at levels 1-22, I don't think the problem has Endurance Recovery at it's core. There are a number of very significant factors that all contribute to low level characters having perceived endurance issues. IMO biggest of these is game pace: no one wants to stop mid fight, everyone wants to steam-roll from one spawn to the next. I'm going to avoid delving into the psychological reasons behind this tendency, but hopefully you'll concede that it exists. The result is that we push the pace, spamming powers until we're literally out of endurance. Next is accuracy: the more often your attacks/powers miss, the more endurance you waste. Then comes damage (per attack): the more attacks required to defeat a spawn, the less endurance you have available for the next spawn - which you want to get to as soon as possible given the steam-roll tendency. Lastly, we have what I would call "slot starvation": limited enhancement slots per power, and limited bonuses from whatever enhancements you choose to slot (compared to what you can get after level 22).
Stamina, if taken at level 20, puts a band-aid on the problem until level 22 when SO enhancement slotting becomes possible, and ultimately "fixes" the problem.
Obviously, the dev's can't (and shouldn't) do anything to "fix" our steam-rolling desires, so that leaves accuracy and damage. The dev's have made some effort here, essentially removing the AT damage modifier from levels 1 - 10, as well as adding the VET attacks, and more recently with "Beginner's Luck" which effectively negates the wasted endurance from certain missed attacks.
I think the next step should be to adjust (increase) the bonus values from lower level enhancements (TOs and DOs) as suggested earlier in the thread. As this will certainly result in a faster leveling speed for characters, it may require a downward adjustment in how much xp is rewarded at those levels too, although with improved steam-rolling capability, I don't think most players will complain. It might take MORE missions to level, but if you get through those missions faster, is that really such a bad thing?
Here's the catch though: we can never steam-roll fast enough! There are
scrappers out there with Quick Recovery, Stamina, and Physical Perfection. Probably other +endurance or +recovery powers too. Warshades (myself included) that fire Stygian Circle "just to top up the tank". Some characters might even wish they had bigger attacks to leverage all that endurance against! And it's not just endurance we see this with. We have soft-capped defenses, resistance-capped toons galore, damage-cap, recharge cap, etc etc etc...all in pursuit of ONE thing: the steam-roll. It won't matter if we increase the recovery rate, or the total amount of endurance, we'll still want more. Sure, HOW that steam-roller gets used varies (farming, soloing AVs, Mo*TFs, etc), but we all strive towards it. Raising the lower limits just pushes us closer to the upper limit.
Honestly though, there's so many work-arounds to the perceived endurance issue (the best being: TEAMS!), that I don't think we'll see any action on it by the dev's. Just have to wait and see what they do in CoH2.