The game is tedious
Actually, I used the expression for Tankers themselves, not the people who play them. I think it's a fitting description because they lack the offensive capabilities of their comic counterparts and are relegated to a role of being decoys by running around, grunting with the Taunt power and grabbing aggro. Very much like a rodeo clown instead of a super hero.
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Well, in a way, you were. When suggesting a change for defenders, one has to look at defenders as a whole.
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In the majority of in-game situations, defenders are one of the most powerful AT's around due to their force multiplying capabilities in teams. |
Even from a solo standpoint, they're still capable of things other AT's couldn't dream of. It's only in a small number of cases that they struggle, and that's where the problem lay. |
How do you make defenders better without changing their overpowering nature on teams? A number of people would like to see them solo better/faster (myself included), but I never would have given them more damage. The fix the devs made was brilliant in its simplicity, and one I don't recall ever seeing posted. |
Why people react to you the way they do? Well, you've posted anecdotal evidence with VERY questionable numbers and results that no one else can come close to replicating. You're either lying, crazy, dumb, or have the only bugged game client out of a hundred other people. When it happens several times over different issues, people tend to remember. (as we've seen.) |
As I said above, I generally don't post numbers because my comments are usually very general in nature, and because I don't pretend to have the expertise in the mechanics of the game I would need. I only present numbers when they are demanded of me. The usual result is that the example becomes the fixation of the thread and the general point I was making is lost. I suspect sometimes that is the reason people demand the numbers.
I can't make a complete judgement of you, cos I've not seen many of your posts (I tend to stay out of the tanker forum), but this quote hints to me that your problem with the game is mainly that it's a MMO first and a superhero game second. I've noticed Ultimo_ seeming to have a similar attitude in the past (his inability to create a suitable Iron Man clone for example). Not that it's necessarily a bad attitude to have, but it's one that will lead to disappointment...
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I can't make a complete judgement of you, cos I've not seen many of your posts (I tend to stay out of the tanker forum), but this quote hints to me that your problem with the game is mainly that it's a MMO first and a superhero game second. I've noticed Ultimo_ seeming to have a similar attitude in the past (his inability to create a suitable Iron Man clone for example). Not that it's necessarily a bad attitude to have, but it's one that will lead to disappointment...
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I've posted some thoughts on the subject in this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=224134
Post #57 and later in #73 responding to some things Arcanaville replied with.
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Actually, this touches on one of my biggest complaints about the game. There's just not enough "comic book" in this comic book game. At this point I don't see how it can change in any significant way without a radical overhaul, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that. However, if I see a way the game might be tweaked to improve the comic book experience, I'll usually mention it. You never know what's possible until you try.
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For me it's the opposite. I couldn't really care what the source material is. I play Co* cos it's the best designed MMO I've ever come across (that's not to say there's no flaws, but that the core design principles are so far above EQ, WoW and their various ripoffs).
They tell me the things I saw happening with my own eyes didn't happen, and are then offended when I refuse to accept that assertion.
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People see through your attempts to bolster your weak arguments with lies about what you've seen in game, Ultimo_. You're not fooling anyone, no matter how loudly you claim the impossible. When you have to make things up out of whole cloth to support your points, you've lost.
Actually, this touches on one of my biggest complaints about the game. There's just not enough "comic book" in this comic book game. At this point I don't see how it can change in any significant way without a radical overhaul, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that. However, if I see a way the game might be tweaked to improve the comic book experience, I'll usually mention it. You never know what's possible until you try.
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How do you define a better "Comic Book Experience" ?
I am not trolling you here Ultimo, Just uncertain what you meant by this ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
OF course, this is why they made a change to the class, because it wasn't underperforming? Really now. |
What? Givig them a boost to damage wan't mentioned? Hmmmm, I seem to ecall suggesting that exact thing myself. Of course, I didn't specify how, I was pointing aout a general principle again. |
Not really. People react to me the way I do because I refuse to capitulate at the first sign of resistance. They tell me the things I saw happening with my own eyes didn't happen, and are then offended when I refuse to accept that assertion. As I said above, I generally don't post numbers because my comments are usually very general in nature, and because I don't pretend to have the expertise in the mechanics of the game I would need. I only present numbers when they are demanded of me. The usual result is that the example becomes the fixation of the thread and the general point I was making is lost. I suspect sometimes that is the reason people demand the numbers. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Y'know, I figured by staying clear of the Tanker forums I'd be able to avoid a dose of JB but here he is going into other sections and posting the same stupid stuff and then calling himself a martyr.
Also, lol @ Ultimo claiming the Defender inherent buff happened because Defenders were underpowered. It's kind of like claiming pre-buff Stalkers, Khelds, or Dominators were underpowered, or old Defiance was underpowered (hint: none of those were). Look at the Stalker, Kheld, Dom, Defiance, and now Vigilance changes and there is one thing in common: damage increase. Apparently, the key to making things appealing lately is MOAR DAMAGE - so I guess, in a sad sort of way, that any eventual solution to "fixing" Tankers (which don't need looking at as a whole, by the way), will be a damage buff of some sort, because apparently being unable to die in 99% of situations in this game isn't enough.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Well, pre-buff stalkers were pretty dang overshadowed in nearly every gameplay situation by brutes, but that's just the one AT I had the most experience with. In that case, MOAR DAMAGE seemed like a good call since that's what stalkers were primarily all about.
Now if they gave them an innate taunt effect to their attacks and double mez/debuff duration from Hide, then I'd have to facepalm.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
At the same time, I want to disagree with you, Mac, about the Dominators. The Dominator's change was in need of fixing them in their usefulness against PTOD - basically, even solo, the dominator couldn't kill an EB quick enough with inspirations to keep 'em alive. The solution was not 'just moar damage,' especially since it had to deal with a commonly accepted exploit being so common as to become 'the norm.'
Back to the actual, as stated topic. I pulled this quote out of an old thread about pre-20 endurance, and I stand by it.
The early levels of most RPGs (PnP, Single Player and; MMO) have to strike an important balance between 'Suk' and; 'Awesome' or 'Suk' and; 'Fun'. A low level character has to feel like he both is haveing fun, but could be having more fun if certain things were different, for instance if he were doing more damage, hitting more often, or being better at taking hits, that way he will feel compelled to strive for the higher levels where he will (presumably) have those things. If the game were as 'instantly' as fun as the player could imagine it being, he will likley not feel as compelled to play it will lack any relevant/tanigable reward to complement the 'fun'. Concenquently he will be further likley to be drawn away buy other games (or passtimes) that do induce a compulsion to play.
The very existance of this disscussion is evidence of the game being very successful in inducing in the player a need for certain things, in this case, better 'End Managment'. Feeling that 'End Managment at the low levels sucks' is not only understandable, but INTENDED. It is suppose to make you want to get to a higher level where you have access to many more better and; varried 'End Managment' tools. |
At the same time, I want to disagree with you, Mac, about the Dominators. The Dominator's change was in need of fixing them in their usefulness against PTOD - basically, even solo, the dominator couldn't kill an EB quick enough with inspirations to keep 'em alive. The solution was not 'just moar damage,' especially since it had to deal with a commonly accepted exploit being so common as to become 'the norm.'
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I though so
For me it's the opposite. I couldn't really care what the source material is. I play Co* cos it's the best designed MMO I've ever come across (that's not to say there's no flaws, but that the core design principles are so far above EQ, WoW and their various ripoffs). |
Perhapes you didnt' call them "Agro Monkies" But you did characterise people who didnt agree with your stance on tankers as "Broken". Which, pro-tip; is pretty dam insulting.
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Many people were expressing the sentiment that they wished Tankers were more like they are in comics, but that they didn't expect that to change in this game. They were also unwilling to fight for what they wanted, or work for a better compromise, and so just rolled over and accepted what they got. To me, that's the definition of someone who has been broken.
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Ok I guess that I will be the first to say it, since I am confused by this comment.
How do you define a better "Comic Book Experience" ? I am not trolling you here Ultimo, Just uncertain what you meant by this ? |
Consider Batman, one of the most significant, iconic characters in comic book history. He's been copied many times over the years, generating characters like Moon Knight, Nightwing and so on. City of Heroes simply can't emulate him or his adventures.
Everything is about beating up bad guys, and not the type we see in the comics. Batman adventures tend to include some intrigue and mystery. CoH doesn't bring in any of this.
Actually, here's another great example, one that's actually in the game.
A building is on fire. How CoH deals with this is very different from what we'd see in a comic book.
In the comics, the hero will rush into the burning buildng, dodging burning rafters, sudden sinkholes and walls of flame to rescue the child trapped within. Outside, his teammates are trying to combat the actual fire, rescuing people from the upper story windows.
In City of Heroes, we beat up an army of bad guys, then we beat up the fire. Then we beat up more bad guys.
In the comics, we see car chases, death traps, secret IDs, and all sorts of other stuff that CoH is just missing or falling short of.
In the comics, Spidermand spends most of his time fighting Electro, not an army of nameless, faceless goons, only to find Electro is 40 times as powerful as Spidey is.
As I say, though, the game doesn't fail, it's pretty good, for what it does do. I'd just like to see them fill in some of the gaps. If DC Online has the kinds of things that make it a Comic Book MMO instead of an MMO with comic book flavouring, then CoH may be in trouble.
Wanting CoX to be more like a comic book, that there is the crux of the problem. You want the game to be something it's not, and then bring up perceived issues with the game because that's "not how they do it in the comic books." We have endurance because it's part of how most MMOs operate, because we need some type of limiter. Otherwise we would just wait for our powers to recharge and spam them indefinitely. Likewise, there's problem a good reason why we can't perfectly recreate comic book heroes.
They'd be overpowered. If you could make a character that has offense and defense of Superman, that would certainly not be balanced.
Wanting CoX to be more like a comic book, that there is the crux of the problem. You want the game to be something it's not, and then bring up perceived issues with the game because that's "not how they do it in the comic books." We have endurance because it's part of how most MMOs operate, because we need some type of limiter. Otherwise we would just wait for our powers to recharge and spam them indefinitely. Likewise, there's problem a good reason why we can't perfectly recreate comic book heroes.
They'd be overpowered. If you could make a character that has offense and defense of Superman, that would certainly not be balanced. |
As for offense & defense, I think where that comes into play is Scrappers really. Other ATs can come close...but they lack of mez protection or rather that chaining of mez effects is likely what kills it for some people.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Wanting CoX to be more like a comic book, that there is the crux of the problem. You want the game to be something it's not, and then bring up perceived issues with the game because that's "not how they do it in the comic books." We have endurance because it's part of how most MMOs operate, because we need some type of limiter. Otherwise we would just wait for our powers to recharge and spam them indefinitely. Likewise, there's problem a good reason why we can't perfectly recreate comic book heroes.
They'd be overpowered. If you could make a character that has offense and defense of Superman, that would certainly not be balanced. |
I realize I'm looking for the game to be something it isn't. It can't possibly meet all my desires, but there are places where it might be tweaked so it's closer to what I'd like. For my part, I think it would be good for the game in general to be more like a comic book. Not exactly like, just MORE like.
Wanting CoX to be more like a comic book, is not a problem. It's how CoH sold itself.
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The problem is their ad pitch is a half truth.
The game conforms to MMORPG conventions at the expense of comic book concepts and ideals. It doesn't use MMO funtionality to support the chosen genre, but rather they try to force the ideals of traditional MMORPGs into the genre.
The result is not "a comic book inserted into a MMO" as they maintain, but a MMORPG with some comic book window dressing.
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You know your deck is good when people moan every time you bust it out. |
I was the one getting flamed and trolled |
they continue the hostility to myself and others. |
I got flamed |
proposing buffs to Invulnerability. |
What do suggestions for a power set than spans multiple ATs have to do with suggestions specific for one AT?
You're confusing two different subjects, both of which I've made many suggestions for.
I called Invul neglected because at the time in had been a long time since any changes had been made to it. WP was rappidly becoming the defensive powerset of choice and because of it being newer, enjoyed advantages and improvments to its design the older sets didn't share. There were several player made surveys at the time of people rating the sets by sturdiness and by how "good" they were and WP was at the top and Invul was consistantly at the bottom. I called WP Castle's pet because it clearly was. The first new power set in a long time and it was untouchable for a time.
I never made that claim. I said I was very vocal about it the set getting a buff, was flamed for it hard, the set eventually got a buff and now the people who flamed me don't seem to see a problem that it got buffed.
And yet Castle has stated similar reasons being the motivation behind recent buffs to Defenders and Dominators. He's even admitted at the 6th anniversary event that he is concerned about Brutes v. Tankers in GR.
Concerned enough to do something about it? And to which AT? He didn't say further. I'm interested to see what happens, however.
Actually, I used the expression for Tankers themselves, not the people who play them. I think it's a fitting description because they lack the offensive capabilities of their comic counterparts and are relegated to a role of being decoys by running around, grunting with the Taunt power and grabbing aggro. Very much like a rodeo clown instead of a super hero.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict