The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The problem is that Ultimo_ wants this game to be HIS; he wants HIS vision stamped on it somehow. He's had a few pet projects over the last year or so, but his basic problem is that his capital V Vision, like Statesman's, doesn't do math.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
I don't know of any team where we've all had to call a halt and rest after every fight - even at very low levels. So I really don't see your problem.
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And you can't do MMO or RPG design without some degree (and preferably lots) of mathematical balance.
Just IME, of course.
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I'm glad they don't put you in charge of development. Isn't like/dislike pretty much THE primary factor in deciding whether or not to play (or pay for) a game? What else is there?|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
And there's also, again, the issue of it just being "I don't like this mechanic, change it." This is not a feasible argument to make. You need to show WHY it needs to be changed. Not liking something isn't reason enough.
END is in the game to limit the players in what they can do and how fast they can do it. We know that. The Devs know that. That is the entire reason END exists. Again: Why should this mechanic change? Particularly now when we have numerous ways to neutralize it already? If the answer to that question is, basically, "Because I don't like it," you need a better argument, because that's not going to fly. |
The real question is: How many people have quit the game at least partially over the issue of endurance? How many more subscribers would the game attract if endurance wasn't such a huge factor? Compare endurance usage in WoW and Champions Online to how it works in City of Heroes and the difference is pretty striking.
If you want a game to be popular, it has to be fun, and people have to like it. It's a game, it's entertainment, people play to be entertained. Is it entertaining to sit around waiting for your toggles to drop?
I can't complain about end usage for defenders, but for tankers and certain scrapper builds? Absolutely. It's an issue, I agree. Not enough of one to keep me from playing, but I'm pretty hardcore into COH. For someone who's more on the fence? I don't know, it might be worth taking a look at it.
Want some raw data? Do a poll or survey some focus groups. What are you going to find? Whether people LIKE IT or NOT. I think subscriptions numbers tell a pretty interesting story. Endurance mechanics certainly isn't the primary factor, but isn't it possible it could be a factor nonetheless?
I don't see any reason to defend the status quo. It doesn't take a math genius to see the numbers are a lot different in terms of players online than they were 2-3 years ago. A lot of other games have taken cues from COH, perhaps it would be worth entertaining the idea of COH taking cues from other games? Wouldn't it make more sense to look into new ideas and explore new possibilities? Would it make the game less fun if endurance were less of an issue? Can you define fun with equations and formulas? When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Sadly, that doesn't always work out too well.
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I'm glad you aren't in charge of game development, because the way you're asking the question suggests incredible naivete.|
Originally Posted by Zanriel
I'm glad they don't put you in charge of development. Isn't like/dislike pretty much THE primary factor in deciding whether or not to play (or pay for) a game? What else is there?
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Making a game "Fun" isn't defined by "take out everything that anyone dislikes". Other posters have talked about having barriers in games, and overcoming the barriers is what gives the games a sense of progress. With no barriers, everything is a pushover, an there's no sense of accomplishment in doing anything. Any time you create a barrier, some people will dislike it. It does not automatically follow that removing that barrier improves the game.
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| The real question is: How many people have quit the game at least partially over the issue of endurance? How many more subscribers would the game attract if endurance wasn't such a huge factor? |
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| Compare endurance usage in WoW and Champions Online to how it works in City of Heroes and the difference is pretty striking. |
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| If you want a game to be popular, it has to be fun, and people have to like it. It's a game, it's entertainment, people play to be entertained. Is it entertaining to sit around waiting for your toggles to drop? |
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| I don't see any reason to defend the status quo. It doesn't take a math genius to see the numbers are a lot different in terms of players online than they were 2-3 years ago. |
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| A lot of other games have taken cues from COH, perhaps it would be worth entertaining the idea of COH taking cues from other games? Wouldn't it make more sense to look into new ideas and explore new possibilities? |
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| Would it make the game less fun if endurance were less of an issue? |
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| Can you define fun with equations and formulas? When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Sadly, that doesn't always work out too well. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I find it is some of the most fast paced combat in MMOs.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use.
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| Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels). |
In WoW my warlock burns magic way faster then even my highest endurance CoH character.
In AoC my barbarian burns through stamina super fast too. As does my dark templar and bear shaman. Fight 16 enemies at once? No way, I'd never have enough magic OR stamina for that. It's all I can do to fight 3 enemies usually. And 2 enemies give troubles too.
In EQ2 my necro burns through an entire magic bar fighting 3 enemies, assuming I survive the fight.
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| As a rule, it's more fun to be using your powers and fighting the enemy than it is to be standing around, often as a punching bag for the NPCs because you lack the energy to fight back. In no other game is this problem so pronounced. Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here. |
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| I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I think the biggest thing that hurt the game as far as subscriber base (If there was anything at all) was GDN and ED. Those were pretty harsh pills for most avid players to swallow. Thats around the time I left to try other games, but NOT the reason I left.
Certainly Endurance woes existed before these events AND after them, but I highly doubt a significant percentage of the original player base left due to that aspect of the game.
And NOW, with the addition of IOs and all that they can do to help out, Endurance issues only exist for players prior to Stamina and not even for all of them. Some AT/Combos are worse off than some, but no one can Honestly say that the game is not fun because of this.
Seriously people, I enjoy the game just as much today as I did that day 6 years ago, when shooting Energy blasts at a Villain can knock him halfway across a room, possibly slamming him against a wall. You could say I enjoy it more since we have "rag-doll" physics now as well. If I have to sit still once in awhile to rest, so be it.
Think about where we are compared to games like EQ for instance. You want to talk about "resting" ! Endurance constraints exist for a reason, whether we agree with them or not, yet CoX has in it the most extensive tools to alter that constraint than any other game I have played. If this constraint is too distracting to your enjoyment of the game, there are plenty of other choices out there. Some games are just going to be popular for a smaller, select, and discerning fanbase.
For me City of Heroes is THAT game !
They will have to majorly screw it up in order to send me packing.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I apologize Zanriel for quoting only part of your post. The parts that I left out were more subjective statements, which don't need my input.|
Originally Posted by Zanriel
I don't see any reason to defend the status quo. It doesn't take a math genius to see the numbers are a lot different in terms of players online than they were 2-3 years ago. A lot of other games have taken cues from COH, perhaps it would be worth entertaining the idea of COH taking cues from other games? Wouldn't it make more sense to look into new ideas and explore new possibilities? Would it make the game less fun if endurance were less of an issue? Can you define fun with equations and formulas? When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Sadly, that doesn't always work out too well.
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This last paragraph hits on a major divide between players (on these forums) and one which anyone (including myself) will run "head-long" into when making suggestions. People like myself love the game, but also "know" that the game must continually evolve and add to itself or it will perish. If the motivation for making suggestions is honestly aimed at ways to improve the game, it comes as a bit of a shock the vehemance against such ideas.
EVERY MMO that I have played has "borrowed" from other games to improve itself. This is true of CoX as well, and we cannot expect that to ever change. The "STATUS QUO" should NOT be a driving factor in the game's developement, but the hard part is making suggestions that would be;
A) Popular
B) Balanced
C) Necessary, to some extent this is often in the form of "nerfs"
I have tremendous respect for many of the members of this community. They are a pretty sharp bunch, so when you want to sell an idea, you better come armed with ALOT of good reasons. Calling something "FUN" or "UNFUN" just isnt going to be enough.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Preaching to the converted my friend. CoH was my first MMO. And it spoiled me. A single player being able to handle 5 to 16 enemies at a time? Debuffs that are worth while? This spoiled me. Then I tried Everquest. Reading through the classes in that, I picked ranger since it sounded a lot like defenders. You know, ranged damage mixed with buffs and debuffs. A combo that CoH taught me is very powerful.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Think about where we are compared to games like EQ for instance. You want to talk about "resting" ! Endurance constraints exist for a reason, whether we agree with them or not, yet CoX has in it the most extensive tools to alter that constraint than any other game I have played. If this constraint is too distracting to your enjoyment of the game, there are plenty of other choices out there. Some games are just going to be popular for a smaller, select, and discerning fanbase. For me City of Heroes is THAT game ! They will have to majorly screw it up in order to send me packing. |
In EQ I quickly stopped using my snares because they didn't matter. The enemy would still be upon me before I could get a second arrow off. I equally quickly realized how useless I was. If a second enemy aggroed on me I was dead. If the enemy was even one level above me I was usually dead. If the priest was even a second slow in healing me I was dead. If an enemy even looked at me cross eyed I was dead. And if I dared to challenge a second enemy after dispatching a single foe, I'd dang well have rested enough to recover the 75% of my health I'd lost. And that's at low levels. The tutorial even! I spent more time running to my corpse to recover my gear then I did fighting enemies.
I've been playing DDO since it came out. You want to hear about down time? Try not healing unless there's a cleric in the party, or you find a 'rest shrine'. And depending on if anyone's putting points in a mostly useless skill, the shrine may barely heal you. Or you could go to a tavern between running missions to heal there. But you need to buy food. Otherwise you recover 1 hit point and 5 magic every few seconds. You have at least 24 health at level one... and you quickly can get hundreds of magic points. Recovering 580 mp at a rate of 5 every 5 seconds takes a long time. Regaining 300 health at a rate of 1 every five seconds takes a long time too. And you had to sit through this after pretty much every mission. Now THAT is downtime.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Listing the MMOs I can remember playing;
EQ, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, Vanguard, AoC, Guild Wars, and CoX (of course)
The only one on that list that really offered something similar to CoX with regards to reducing downtime was Guild Wars, and, hmmm wonder who made that game?
I also tried EVE, and its a whole different animal, so nothing like any of these games.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
My only real gripe is the Rest mechanic. I would love to see the recharge time on the Rest ability drastically reduced (or even removed entirely). If my lowbies have to run out of endurance every spawn or two for the game to be balanced, so be it. But do not limit my ability to rest, for goodness' sake.
An example of what I mean: the other day I was messing around on a lowbie Brute. I accidentally aggro'd two spawns. I managed to finish them off, but at the end of the battle my character was low on Health and Endurance, and Rest was still recharging because I had recently used it. My options at that point were: 1) exit the mission and buy some inspirations, 2) stand around and wait on Rest to come back, 3) Stand around and wait on my health and endurance to refill naturally.
In my personal opinion, standing around and waiting are not good options to leave a player with. I don't see what harm could possibly befall the game if we were able to rest more often.
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That suggestion has come up in this thread, and to my knowledge, has not been shot down as a bad idea. I dont see it as terribly unbalanced and I am all for a semi-instant recharge as long as it still can not be used in combat.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
My only real gripe is the Rest mechanic. I would love to see the recharge time on the Rest ability drastically reduced (or even removed entirely). If my lowbies have to run out of endurance every spawn or two for the game to be balanced, so be it. But do not limit my ability to rest, for goodness' sake.
An example of what I mean: the other day I was messing around on a lowbie Brute. I accidentally aggro'd two spawns. I managed to finish them off, but at the end of the battle my character was low on Health and Endurance, and Rest was still recharging because I had recently used it. My options at that point were: 1) exit the mission and buy some inspirations, 2) stand around and wait on Rest to come back, 3) Stand around and wait on my health and endurance to refill naturally. In my personal opinion, standing around and waiting are not good options to leave a player with. I don't see what harm could possibly befall the game if we were able to rest more often. |
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Although I am in the camp that rest rech should be reduced/eliminated, has it come up ever in discussions or a red name that the reason it has a recharge is to force to use END management? |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
That suggestion has come up in this thread, and to my knowledge, has not been shot down as a bad idea. I dont see it as terribly unbalanced and I am all for a semi-instant recharge as long as it still can not be used in combat.
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In other words, if we could rest quickly between fights, then we would learn to just burn END every fight, rest, burn END, rest and never really plan out how to manage our END.
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That I am aware of? No. However, rest has not changed at all afaik(I could be wrong) and remains the same as when the game was released. There were not nearly as many options to deal with end issues back then, so I dont know what it would teach besides dont bite off more than you can chew. Which is apparently a lesson still needed to be learned by some folks anyway...|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Although I am in the camp that rest rech should be reduced/eliminated, has it come up ever in discussions or a red name that the reason it has a recharge is to force to use END management?
In other words, if we could rest quickly between fights, then we would learn to just burn END every fight, rest, burn END, rest and never really plan out how to manage our END. |
Edit 1: I stand corrected. Thanks M_E!
Edit 2: Before people complain that the challenge of biting off more that you can chew is actually fun, I agree with you. Biting of more than you can chew and then complaining about it, is lame.
Just in case he misses it again before he comes back to the thread.
Hey Ultimo_, please provide some sort of mathematical analysis which shows some evidence of an unmanageable endurance problem at low levels.
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Actually, Rest has had it's recharge reduced once already. It use to have a timer of either 6 or 10 minutes. Can't remember which. Now it's every 3 minutes. I find by the time I actually need to use rest again, it's already up. And if you need it more often, slot some recharge.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Although I am in the camp that rest rech should be reduced/eliminated, has it come up ever in discussions or a red name that the reason it has a recharge is to force to use END management?
In other words, if we could rest quickly between fights, then we would learn to just burn END every fight, rest, burn END, rest and never really plan out how to manage our END. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Howdy!|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
BurningChick! Welcome back!
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I've been back for a while, but haven't been posting much. But, like a moth to a flame, I'm drawn to Ultimo_'s posts.
FWIW, I don't mind the current end burn rate; it's one of the few mechanics in the game that forces me into making slotting choices. If end burn were dropped, my non-IOed attacks would be slotted something like 1x accuracy, 3x damage, 2x recharge. And the game would be become that much easier and duller.
This game is already an AoE-driven zergfest compared to anything outside of an FPS; I don't want to see it become even more-so. And if the game became even easier, it would also become less interesting. CoX, right now, has a pretty good balance between ease of play, speed, and challenge. Mucking up that balance would be, at best, detrimental.
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Yes I am aware that it used to have a longer recharge than it does now.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Actually, Rest has had it's recharge reduced once already. It use to have a timer of either 6 or 10 minutes. Can't remember which. Now it's every 3 minutes. I find by the time I actually need to use rest again, it's already up. And if you need it more often, slot some recharge.
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That does not change my view on the subject. Granted it does not happen constantly, but there are occassions like I described in my original post when someone will need to rest and the ability will be recharging, thus forcing the player to merely do nothing for a period of time. This isn't a good idea in my opinion. And no amount of recharge slotting is going to completely eliminate that possibility.
Can you explain to me specifically why you feel my suggestion would be bad for the game? I'd love to hear it. (And no, that isn't sarcasm, I really would like to hear it.)
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Not that I know of. Personally, I consider having to rest a fairly significant pause anyway. That's terribly subjective, of course, but even though resting every fight is way better than having to wait for your blue bar to recover on its own, it's still a pretty significant pause. So if I was "forced" to rest every fight, I'd still want to improve my endurance recovery.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Although I am in the camp that rest rech should be reduced/eliminated, has it come up ever in discussions or a red name that the reason it has a recharge is to force to use END management?
In other words, if we could rest quickly between fights, then we would learn to just burn END every fight, rest, burn END, rest and never really plan out how to manage our END. |
That's a bit of a tightrope walk. The devs clearly look at things like leveling speed on a pretty highly averaged scale, and they're going to catch the time players spend standing around waiting on end recovery in their metrics on average time-to-next-level (presumably on a per-level basis). They can adjust this time either by fiddling the XP for mobs in those ranges, by fiddling with how fast we recover (or lose) endurance (and health), or by some combination of the two. It could be the case that they'd be leveling people faster than they intended in the low levels if they had both "XP smoothing" and faster recharging rest. Is that really a big deal? No idea - leveling rates by level are probably a mostly subjective target on the devs' parts.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think that perception of Resting being a significant pause is a good point. I'm not saying Rest's recharge should be eliminated so I can burn my entire End bar every fight. I just want the ability available when it is needed. In its current form it is a mechanic that can occasionally force a player to literally not play the game until they recover. To me any mechanic that enforces someone not playing is a bad mechanic.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Not that I know of. Personally, I consider having to rest a fairly significant pause anyway. That's terribly subjective, of course, but even though resting every fight is way better than having to wait for your blue bar to recover on its own, it's still a pretty significant pause. So if I was "forced" to rest every fight, I'd still want to improve my endurance recovery.
That's a bit of a tightrope walk. The devs clearly look at things like leveling speed on a pretty highly averaged scale, and they're going to catch the time players spend standing around waiting on end recovery in their metrics on average time-to-next-level (presumably on a per-level basis). They can adjust this time either by fiddling the XP for mobs in those ranges, by fiddling with how fast we recover (or lose) endurance (and health), or by some combination of the two. It could be the case that they'd be leveling people faster than they intended in the low levels if they had both "XP smoothing" and faster recharging rest. Is that really a big deal? No idea - leveling rates by level are probably a mostly subjective target on the devs' parts. |
I was weened on waiting, having played EQ1 from the first day live. Compared to that * staring at a book anyone? * or waiting as a warrior for your HP bar to climb . . 1 . . . hp ... at ... a ... time. CoH is a breeze.
If you're a button masher with sprint on, you're doing it wrong. If you're using the biggest hitting damage power ( and thus highest end use usually ) to finish off a mob, you're doing it wrong.
End management keeps the game in balance. It's part of the game and a facet you need to figure out. If you're a long time player and still haven't got it under wraps, I'd say it's a you problem, not a game mechanic problem. Just my opinion.
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I agree. There have been many times when I've had to leave the room to go kill time while waiting for a character to regenerate. EQ was even worse though. I remember how tedious it was having to sit for 5-10 minutes between each pull. It was almost all built around downtime. Even getting from one zone to another could take 30 minutes to 1 hour. And then people used to sit in vigil for 24+ hours waiting for a rare spawn. It was awful.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
My only real gripe is the Rest mechanic. I would love to see the recharge time on the Rest ability drastically reduced (or even removed entirely). If my lowbies have to run out of endurance every spawn or two for the game to be balanced, so be it. But do not limit my ability to rest, for goodness' sake.
An example of what I mean: the other day I was messing around on a lowbie Brute. I accidentally aggro'd two spawns. I managed to finish them off, but at the end of the battle my character was low on Health and Endurance, and Rest was still recharging because I had recently used it. My options at that point were: 1) exit the mission and buy some inspirations, 2) stand around and wait on Rest to come back, 3) Stand around and wait on my health and endurance to refill naturally. In my personal opinion, standing around and waiting are not good options to leave a player with. I don't see what harm could possibly befall the game if we were able to rest more often. |
COH is one of the best out there in terms of endurance/mana/stamina usage.
I remember in WoW, when I got my mage to the mid 30's, I made a post complaining about downtime and mana usage. I was really quite dismayed over the issue. However, with some twiddling with talent points and just "getting over it", I got into the 40's and mana was no longer an issue. I ran into the same problem at level 80 for a while, but again, it just took some fiddling with talent points to fix the issue.
COH is very similar. If endurance is an issue, it only takes a bit of experimentation and mixing up different enhancements, and it's not that hard to fix. That said, I still stand by my assertion that subscriptions are down, and anything that might point to a cause should be addressed.
Personally I don't think game mechanics should be at the top of the priority list. What the game really needs are more varied maps and tilesets, more varied locations (outer space? other planets?), more innovations with interactive / destructible environments, more varied mission types, and more basic conventions ripped from the comics and other games: Secret identities, interactive NPC's, branching dialogue, multiple choice missions, friends and foes that have their own motivations, relationships (Superman's best pal, a girlfriend, a boss, a neighbor, the landlady). Grab some ideas from The Sims and any game by Bioware, but with a comic book flavor. That would be awesome.
So... don't anyone get the wrong idea about me, I don't think endurance is a HUGE issue. But I can see the OP's point, and I do agree with him to an extent. I can see both sides.
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So, you burn so much endurance that you need Rest more then once every 3 minutes? Slot some recharge into it then. I slot one SO worth of recharge in rest at any given time. Need it up more often? Add another slot or two. Yes, you too can get it's recharge down to 1 minute 30 seconds if you wanted. Lower then that actually!|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Yes I am aware that it used to have a longer recharge than it does now.
That does not change my view on the subject. Granted it does not happen constantly, but there are occassions like I described in my original post when someone will need to rest and the ability will be recharging, thus forcing the player to merely do nothing for a period of time. This isn't a good idea in my opinion. And no amount of recharge slotting is going to completely eliminate that possibility. Can you explain to me specifically why you feel my suggestion would be bad for the game? I'd love to hear it. (And no, that isn't sarcasm, I really would like to hear it.) |
Or you can take a look at why your burning so much endurance. Are you running nine expensive toggles at all times? Consider if you actually need them all on at any given moment. Having a damage aura on for example when your traveling is a waste. Only turn it on in battle. Try turning off your travel power in combat. That'll save a lot of endurance. Do you chain Headsplitter six times for your attack chain? Try adding some endurance redux to it. Or even try throwing in lower endurance cost attacks which will also finish off the already weakened enemy. Many paths to endurance management exist. The right one for you could be staring you right in the face.
Yes, you too can solve your endurance usage problems! All it takes is a willingness to think for yourself.
But in all seriousness, endurance troubles aren't anywhere near as bad as you claim. My level 18 ice/mace tanker has endurance troubles. With all toggles on, I have about .3/sec end recovery beyond usage. But you know what? I can easily solve them at any given moment. All I have to do is *gasp* turn off those toggles between battles when I need more end recovery. Or if I am still fighting, I can turn off the toggles I don't need. If an enemy group has nothing that can mez me, I don't need my mez protection toggle do I? Similarly if there's only smash/lethal damage I don't need my energy defense toggle. If fighting only a couple enemies, do I really need my slow aura or damage aura? Not really. And turning them off slows down the endurance bleed.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I had left this thread to circle the drain as it will. I still popped in from time to time, but since this was a direct reply to one of my posts, I figure I should at least respond.
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And such a personal value judgment is made on the game as a whole, not based on one element.|
Originally Posted by Zanriel
I'm glad they don't put you in charge of development. Isn't like/dislike pretty much THE primary factor in deciding whether or not to play (or pay for) a game?
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Do you like baseball? Do you like being struck out?
How about bowling? Aren't gutterballs fun?
Oh hey, golf! Sandtraps and water hazards are a fun and enjoyable part of the game.
Maybe some Monopoly instead? Going to Jail is my favorite part.
Point of the matter, there will be at least one "un-fun" part to any game. And yet people look past those portions and still find the games fun. Games NEED the un-fun parts to ensue the fun parts are fun. If your game is all fun all the time, 100% no un-fun, then you might as well have it be "Hit the Buzzer, Win a Cookie!"
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| The real question is: How many people have quit the game at least partially over the issue of endurance? |
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| How many more subscribers would the game attract if endurance wasn't such a huge factor? Compare endurance usage in WoW and Champions Online to how it works in City of Heroes and the difference is pretty striking. |
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Originally Posted by Zanriel
COH is one of the best out there in terms of endurance/mana/stamina usage.
I remember in WoW, when I got my mage to the mid 30's, I made a post complaining about downtime and mana usage. I was really quite dismayed over the issue. However, with some twiddling with talent points and just "getting over it", I got into the 40's and mana was no longer an issue. I ran into the same problem at level 80 for a while, but again, it just took some fiddling with talent points to fix the issue. COH is very similar. If endurance is an issue, it only takes a bit of experimentation and mixing up different enhancements, and it's not that hard to fix. That said, I still stand by my assertion that subscriptions are down, and anything that might point to a cause should be addressed. |
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| If you want a game to be popular, it has to be fun, |
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| and people have to like it. |
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| Want some raw data? |
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| Do a poll or survey some focus groups. |
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| I think subscriptions numbers tell a pretty interesting story. Endurance mechanics certainly isn't the primary factor, but isn't it possible it could be a factor nonetheless? |
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| I don't see any reason to defend the status quo. |
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| It doesn't take a math genius to see the numbers are a lot different in terms of players online than they were 2-3 years ago. |
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Don't forget about SWG! This is a dramatization of events:
"The game's failing, we need more players"
"I know, let's completely revamp the combat engine to make it fun! That'll draw in new players, satisfy the current players, and bring back old players!"
"That's a great idea"
*mass exodus from the game after the Combat Upgrade*
"Wait, what just happened?"
"I don't know, maybe we should completely revamp the class system, expertise system, and every core gameplay system?"
"Great idea, that'll bring everyone back!"
*another mass exodus from the game after the New Game Experience fiasco*
"What happened now?"
"According to our forums, everyone's rage quitting because we destroyed the game twice."
"Oh..."
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
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You are paying 15/month to keep your account active to post here, right? Why, if you find the game "tedious"? Find something more fun to do. No offence meant, but I would.
I don't know of any game where the lower levels are a blitz. You can do a lot to mitigate that; that's been mentioned already. At higher levels you can also mitigate endurance consumption the same way you would mitigate health consumption (damage taken). So do so.
Having to work at it a bit doesn't mean the entire game is tedious. It means you put some effort in to it to get a better result.
I can't be bothered to set purples, I can't be bothered to use sets on every one of of my 50's. However, I do not expect those chars using normal IOs to out-perform my chars who use sets or other people's chars who use purples.
You shouldn't expect characters who don't slot endurance reduction to out-perform those that do. During my brief foray into WoW, all I recall my friend's character doing is sitting down and drinking potions. That's hardly an improvement.
I don't know of any team where we've all had to call a halt and rest after every fight - even at very low levels. So I really don't see your problem.
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