The game is tedious

... does that include losing 100% of your HP?

Zanriel:
I get it. You hate math. You know what happens when people who hate math design games? You get things like this game, at launch:

* Invuln scrapper 30x tougher than Dark Armor scrapper
* Invuln tank 10-15x tougher than Ice tank
* Ice blaster doing 2x the DPS of energy blaster

...etc...

Thanks, I'll take people who are mathematically literate over those who are not.

I have remained completely respectful toward you. I ask that you do the same if you wish to actually have a discussion. If you lack the ability to be polite with someone who disagrees with you, then this discussion is pointless.

I will say again, since apparently I have been misunderstood: My only complaint is that the ability to rest and recover has a recharge time. I do not on any of my characters constantly need Rest after every spawn. However, sometimes things go awry, you pull too many mobs, and your character is left in a state with no inspirations and Rest on recharge. At this point you literally can do nothing but stare at the screen waiting. That specific situation is what I am talking about. Leave your posturing and snark out please.

Again, my point is not about "endurance issues." It is about that one mechanic.

And to Fulmens: My first paragraph applies to you as well. Can we at least attempt to behave like we're trying to come to a consensus? I have asked for a reasonable explanation of why you think my idea (no- or low-recharge Rest ability) is a bad idea. You have yet to give me something that isn't patronizing.

I'm probably going to regret taking another look at this thread. But I'd thought I'd mention that while I don't really see a problem with the current mechanic of endurance, I don't actually have an issue with the suggestion of having [Rest] more readily available. It already has several "penalties" tacked on to it (as it should). I realize that there are ways to get it more readily available through slotting, however I generally find my characters using rest more often, usually due to health rather than endurance at lower levels, when there are fewer slots available. I can't imagine dropping it's recharge time a bit more would be unbalancing, but I've been wrong before ... once a long, long time ago.


I'm fairly sure numbers are actually down a bit from 2-3 years ago. The endurance mechanic has not changed since then, except for getting more ways to manage it. It's more likely that there are other, much more significant factors at work.

Just for giggles, the devs should revert one of the test servers to Issue 1, give all newly-created toons a billion inf, and turn on double experience.

And then folks can compare which is the better game

Suggesting a change in the game (reduction, or removal of the recharge time for Rest), or saying that there is a problem with a mechanic (that Rest has a recharge time at all) without proof, immediately puts you in a bind. If you can't prove it, forumites with significant knowledge of the game's mechanics, and/or mathematical skills will quickly dismiss you for your lack of proof - it's not upon them to do your work. If you don't prove it, forumites with some debating sense will dismiss you for not proving your assertion - it's not upon them to disprove a mere assertion. If you outright ignore requests for proof, lurkers like myself dismiss you - you're likely a troll (I'm not accusing you of being a troll, just saying under those circumstances, it's a possibility).
Respect and Reason are all fine and dandy for a discussion, but all you've given us is: I don't like to stare at the screen waiting for my endurance bar to refill. The situation you described actually has an "out": run (ok, walk, forgot no endurance...) into the nearest spawn, die, go to hospital - instant blue bar refill. You might even get back to the mission (and action) faster than if you had just waited for your endurance to refill sans Rest (depending on distance from hospital, access to travel power, etc).
Speaking of dying, there's another situation that can "make" you sit and stare at the screen waiting. Why aren't you suggesting an auto-rez feature after 30 seconds? Or traveling! Why do we have to travel to missions, as soon as we select one we should auto-enter it. Or zoning! They should totally do away with that, no? Why just endurance? All of those things basically take you out of the game too.
People have made excellent points as to why you're not supposed to like waiting for you endurance bar to refill. Which on the one hand validates your point, but on the other hand makes it moot. The devs have implemented several ways to reduce the amount of time you have to wait for it, yet they haven't gone so far as to completely remove the mechanic. That should tell you something.

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I have to take issue with this. Of course I'm asking for my own benefit. Do you expect me to ask for something I don't want? It's because I want to enjoy the game that I saw a problem in the first place. That doesn't mean I can't see past my own desires to what others want. As I've said, I started this thread specifically to see if others shared my perception of things. That's hardly selfish, and it's certainly not decietful.

It's not that I don't want ATs. Perhaps I should explain briefly how I'd have made the game. Be aware that this is only a very brief description.
I would have started the design of the game with the environment. I would have created a world that was active and had things going on in it such as we see in comic books (fires, car chases, etc.). I would then have created the superhero "prototype." This character would have baseline attributes and access to all the powers. I would then have designed the powers so they were all categorized in two ways - offense or defense. All characters would have to choose one of each. They would all be balanced against one another so that the only differences would be presentation (for instance, Power Bolts and Fire Bolts would do the same damage - only the special effect would differ).
At this point, with everything in balance, I would design the ATs based on their TEAM ROLES. Each would get an inherent power designed to be of benefit both solo and teamed. Tankers are meant to hold aggro and survive, so they would get a power that allows them to do this, and which is useful solo and teamed. Other classes would be the Scrapper (do damage), Defender (Buffs, including heals), and Controllers (Debuffs).
The idea would be that all the ATs could use ANY power set. The Tanker could have Force Fields and Energy Blasts if he wanted. He's not going to do the damage of the Scrapper, and he can't buff as well as the Defender (since their inherents would allow them superiority in those areas), but he'd still be able to Tank by virtue of his inherent.

If you see what I mean. I can go into more detail if you lie, but that's really a whole other thread.

I don't have to be telepathic or have datamining to see that the streets are empty. The population is dwindling, and you can't deny it. Now, whether that's because of Endurance issues is uncertain. All I've suggested is that it's something making the game less fun to play, and people not having fun might leave. Sure, it's not the root cause, but making it less of an issue might make the game more fun, which in turn might make people choose to stay.


Pendix, Quantumizer, You're quite right, fun is subjective. That's why I'm here asking if others feel the same way I do. Obviously not everyone does, but some apparently do.

Your analysis is interesting. However, I'll suggest that there are already incentives to advance (new powers, foes and areas, for example), and that the Endurance mechanic is unnecessary and damaging as a result.
As for looking for a sense of achievement, I would think players would rather overcome the enemies to get that, not their endurance woes. Of course, that's just my take on it.
You may be right, but I feel it's a bad design choice.


Dechs, I never said the endurance problem was "unmanageable," I said it was not fun. Others do seem to agree with that assessment.


Capa, the purpose of this is that I want to stay here and play. I mean, the game has a lot of potential, and it seems to me that this is something that should be relatively easy to fix, while having a significant impact on how fun the game is. It's certainly not the only thing that would help the game, but it seems to me to be something worth a lot of bang for the buck.


Burningchick, of course I have a vision for the game. We all do. Now, I'll grant, math isn't my strong suit, but I don't need to have a degree to know I'm not enjoying something, and it doesn't take calculus to know others feel the same way.
Oh, and welcome back.


Zanriel, Uberguy, your two posts are this whole thread in microcosm. I'll draw attention to two comments. First, that Zanriel is right, in the final analysis, if the game isn't fun people won't play it. Second, Uberguy is right, fun is based on overcoming reasonable challenges. The question becomes, "is the endurance mechanic a reasonable challenge?" I've put forward the notion that it isn't. It's excessive. It impacts virtually every aspect of the game and can't be sufficiently mitigated.


M.Enigma, Yes, the game can be quite fast paced, as long as you don't have to worry about your endurance running out. I haven't played WoW, Vanguard or Conan (or is that Camelot?), but in the games I have played, I haven't found endurance/power to be as onerous as it is here.


Biospark, I agree, it can be a difficult ledge to walk. It's my feeling we're teetering a bit more that we ought to where Endurance is concerned. Now, that certainly doesn't mean the game is doomed or anything. I'm just saying it could use a tweak.


Steel Shaman, adjusting the Rest mechanic would surely help, but only between fights. Endurance issues are more debilitating DURING fights.


Rush Bolt, the data you request was (to some degree) provided by the first 10 pages of this thread. As I pointed out, roughly 50% of the posters that made their opinions known at least in part agreed that the endurance mechanic was not fun. Now, that doesn't mean they're quitting over it, but it does imply a problem.
M.Enigma, are you comparing the CU and NGE to a tweak to endurance? I don't imagine it would be anything like that drastic.


If I didn't comment on your post, don't feel slighted. It probably means it's something I've commented on before or saw no reason to expand on.

Again, I'm really pleased to see the discussion moving in a more constructive direction!

You've missed my point. I've stated my opinion on the matter and why I feel the way I do. I have asked others for their opinion. I get it, you guys don't like my idea. But this is not Differential Mathematics, and my opinion is not a theorem to be proven or disproven. It is just that, my opinion. Talen Lee's post a couple posts above this one is an example of the sort of discussion I was hoping to have. And he does raise a valid point about training new players that the game's pattern is "rest, kill, rest, kill". That is a side effect I had not considered, and I find his statements interesting. In fact, because of what he said I am wondering if my idea was a good one after all. And he didn't have to mock me or discredit me to do it. He just.....had a rational discussion.

At any rate, I've said my peace, and I'm out. This thread can spin away into the Void at this point as far as I'm concerned.

And you're still trying to treat a sample size of 52 people as indicative of anything? When the end group is over 50,000 people?

Seriously?

I ask for research and you give what is effectively gibberish scribbled in crayon on a napkin.

I already granted that it's a small sample, and not necessarily representative, but it is all I have to work with. I've seen published research with smaller samples meant to generalize to the entire population of North America.

You wanted data, I gave you data. Belittling it isn't going to change that.

You mean it's all you want to work with since you're unwilling to do any actual research on the matter.


And those examples would've been laughed out of any serious discussion just as this is.


You gave data which is misleading and irrelevant not to mention highly suspicious since you even admitted that you counted people who did not fully agree with you as agreeing with you.

Also, I like how you completely ignore every other bit of that post in favor of jumping on this singular point.

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Ultimo, you were doing fine until you got to the last three sentences quoted there, and the last one in particular.

It can't be sufficiently mitigated? What are you talking about? Apparently, "sufficiently mitigated" should be "can fight forever." Which, I should point out, is actually possible, even on some extremely endurance heavy characters. (I have a Night Widow who's getting pretty close to being able to defeat continuous +2/x8 spawns without stopping unless end drains are involved.)

Which is quite funny. With Madam Enigma endurance isn't the limiting factor of how long I can fight non-stop. Health is. Same for Donna Fae, my TA/A defender. My blasters also have that issue. Only three of my three dozen characters ever run the risk of bottoming out on endurance mid fight. One is a sonic/sonic defender. One is a ice/mace tanker. And the third is a dark/dark scrapper.

Holy crap!

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"Can't be sufficiently mitigated"?

Tell that to the players running missions solo set for a full team of 8 without pausing or resting.

Tell that to the players soloing AV's without inspirations or temporary powers.

Tell that to the players soloing entire Taskforces. I used to speedrun the old Positron TF for merits all the time. I somehow managed to "sufficiently mitigate" my endurance issues without stamina enough to make thousands of merits soloing that TF. Unpossible!

Heck, tell that to the players just running normal content. I just finished playing with a team of low level players tonight. Two of them were new to the game. All were below level 20, except my Scrapper at 22, so none of them had Stamina. No one was ranting about endurance problems. We didn't rest between spawns. We just played normally.. If two brand new players can understand how to deal with their pre-stamina endurance, I'd call that more than "sufficiently mitigated".

Amazing that two new players, that don't know all the intimate details about game mechanics and powers can deal with endurance just fine, yet to you it is apparently an insurmountable obstacle.

Prove that there is some insurmountable, unmanageable barrier to fun created by lack of endurance. Give me some math. Do some work.

So, which is it?

I'm not about to start a study so I can have an opinion. As I said in the first post, this is based on my own opinion. My "study" was based on the response to this thread. I've granted it's not perfect, but you're merely dismissing it.

"Give me EVIDENCE," you say.
"Here's a very brief survey," I say, "and it supports my opinion.
"That doesn't count," you say.

I've seen many research articles published by the American Psychiatric Association with sample sizes smaller than 50. I guess you'd better tell them their research is bollocks.

Agreement is agreement. I granted that it wasn't perfect, and that the numbers would be different for TOTAL agreement, but as usual, it's never enough with some people.



Uberguy, those last three sentences represent my opinion. I'm entitled to that. It's supported to some degree by what I've seen in this thread, and elsewhere. That is, again in my opinion, sufficient cause to give it a tweak.


Panzer, you're citing fringe cases, unless you're suggesting everyone can solo AVs and 8 man missions and whatnot. I'm interested in what's best for all (yes, including myself). I will say the problem is far more manifest solo because your team is doing things for you when you can't. Thus you don't notice it as readily.

I didn't say it was unmanageable, I said the effect it has is excessive. These statements aren't at odds.


Dechs, see my response to Rush, above. I don't need to do math to have an opinion.

So... because only those who specifically build for it can solo AV's and +5/x8 missions you think there's a problem? In normal gameplay endurance isn't a problem unless you allow it to be a problem.

EDIT to expand: Someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding the argument here. The complaint is that endurance usage is so extreme that people are constantly running out of endurance, and a 3 minute timer (or 1:30 minute timer even) is too long to cover flaw. The insanely high endurance usage in turn causes people to just stand around for large amounts of time recovering endurance instead of actually playing.

Am I understanding it so far?

The complaint then further indicates that this overarching problem is so severe it can't be compensated for. Or in Ultimo's own words "It's excessive. It impacts virtually every aspect of the game and can't be sufficiently mitigated"

Now, never mind all the tools we have to handle endurance usage issues. It is so excessive it can't be surfficently mitigated. So ignore characters who can fight for hours without running out of endurance. Further ignore defenders who DON'T have stamina and have no endurance issues. Ignore people who can solo a mission on +5/x8 without resting excessively. Also ignore people capable of soloing an AV. All these examples of people who solved the unmitigatable endurance usage are aberrant and can't be considered.

Also ignore people who play the game normally without endurance issues. Furthermore you must ignore any new player who can figure out how to solve their endurance issues. They aren't proof that endurance recovery doesn't create excessive downtime.

You know all those teams that don't have a kin that steamroll missions? You know, the ones who blitz mission after mission without slowing down? Ignore them too. They can't possibly be doing that. After all, endurance usage is "excessive. It impacts virtually every aspect of the game and can't be sufficiently mitigated"

Am I still understanding the argument here? Someone correct me if I got it wrong somehow.

Ultimo_

You conveniently skipped over the part of Panzer's post where he spoke of his team that included 2 new players - where the whole team was pre-Stamina - and wasn't noticing any Endurance problems. That tends to not support your opinion.

Other posts in this thread also tend to not support your opinion - there have been many who state that managing Endurance might not be "fun" to all players, but that either find the task of managing it to be challenging (best case) or at the very least, not tedious to the point of making the whole game "UNFUN". Even some of those who somewhat agreed with you in your count of support were not strongly supporting you.

For the record, I do not find managing Endurance to be unfun, neither do I find it to be all that much of a challenge - my own playstyle is to run solo most of the time, not racing through mission after mssion, so the negligile amount of time is takes for Endurance to recover does not really affect the speed I am playing at. If I want a session of just zerging through spawn after spawn, I join a team. I do like to think that this style is not uncommon amongst the playerbase as a whole.

That being said - Ultimo_ has now stated more than once that his post is based on "OPINION". And although several have tried to convince him otherwise (not sure why y'all thought that would work this time when it hasn't on the eleventy-bajillion other discussions that started out with his opinion) you aren't going to change his mind this time either. Give it up as a lost cause.

But I do really, really wonder why he still pays for a subscription to a tedious, unfun game. If I truly found a game unfun, lI would stop playing it - in fact, I have stopped several games in my time for that very reason. And most of those tedious games are the free ones on FB or MSN Games - I certainly wouldn't have paid for them.

Because any day now, if he just repeats himself one more time with the right inflection, the developers will suddenly realise he's right and recreate the game in his vision.

Hyperbole, but it's the hope that belies the words.

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No, but you should start a study to show there is a need to act on that opinion on the Devs' part. I have an opinion that the Nemesis Warhorses should be put in-game and that players should be able to get access to them. This does not mean the Devs are under any obligation to actually do so.

If I were to show that putting the horses (oh look, steam ponies) in-game is a worthwhile effort on their part and would be a better use of that development time as opposed to anything else that time could have been devoted to, then I might convince them to put the ponies in.


And that's what the Devs would do too. Because your "study" is far, far, far short of any sort of compelling evidence to acquiesce to your opinion. You want them to follow through on something? Show them unequivocally that it's worthwhile to do so.


I can't really comment on the integrity of their research since all you've done is namedrop as if that means anything and mention they have sample sizes of less than 50 (with no mention of how big the pool is).

What was their methodology? What part of the populace is their subject? Would you like to cite sources or would you like to continue the moving goalposts?


That's right. It's not enough. If you keep pointing back to it like it's the ending point of your research rather than the very first step, you will never get anywhere.


EDIT: And just to put this all succinctly: You can have all the opinions you like, but the moment you try to get that passed off as fact, you're gonna need facts.

Bzzt! Wrong. Thanks for playing.

You made an unambiguous statement: endurance problems "can't be sufficiently mitigated."

I pointed out multiple examples that directly contradict your statement. If a player can mitigate endurance issues enough to do the hardest possible things that exist in the game while solo, things that are supposed to require full teams to accomplish, then by any definition possible, endurance issues can be "sufficiently mitigated."

And way to completely skip over and ignore what I related about my teaming experience earlier tonight...