The game is tedious

He's not about to rehash years of discussion here, and you know it.

Besides, we're drifting off topic.

Thanks for spelling out more what you meant Ultimo.

In a general sense I agree with these things that you have mentioned, but what I might suggest is to take each of these ideas as a seperate item and work on suggestions in each seperate area to improve the game.

For example, you wish to clone a particular Hero. Think about powers/powersets that would be balanced within the existing game and try engender support for additions rather than changes.

Fire fighting suggestions and ideas for new events to add more suspense and intrigue as opposed to "beat up all villains till mission complete sounds" I am all for these new kinds of missions and events, so definitely think up some and make suggestions. Probably alot of other folks around here want to see more complicated missions. I kinda see Mission Architect as the platform to effect these kinds of things. All the developers need to do is keep thinking up new "wrinkles" for missions and eventually it will be closer to what you are seeking.

As far as Arch Villains go, again there are and will be endless suggestions on how these kinds of Villains are handled. The upcomming Doppleganger feature could hopefully fill the void you are seeking. Keep in mind that the "other" game has Nemesis that you can design yourself, so Paragon has to be uniquely different so as not to be accused of directly copying that feature.

I have played MMOs now for 10 years and in the beginning I would take a concept in my head and go into the game and try to create it with the existing tools. This can and has led to disappointment. You should continue to play the game in a way that you find enjoyment from, but you don't have a choice in what "tools" are available. Whatever has been coded "so far" is the extent of what you can do. The good news is that after 6 years of playing, the "options" are so much greater that the game is a vastly superior experience than at launch. Seriously, could you make a "Thor" clone at launch? Not really. but with weapon customization and the addition of Electric Aura he is much more doable. Thats just one example. Just think what it will look like in 6 more years.

Ultimo, consider that this person is your principal supporter.

Now let THAT sink in for a bit.

If you are looking for the definition of disagreeing by being disagreable, Check J_Bs history.

(Also, I did make another post, actually on-topic, if anybody cares to address it, even if only to disimiss it, that would be nice)

I do know JBs history. While I don't agree with all his ideas (for example, I think Tankers are generally fine damage-wise, they just need a tweak in presentation as I described above), I do agree with much of what he says in principle.

Either way, he has endured even more unjustified vilification than I have. I appreciate his support, and that of any that agree with me. I further appreciate any disagreement that is presented in a rational respectful manner.

I've actually done as you suggest in the past. For example, I started a thread once to suggest making ranged attacks available to Tankers (a variety of ways this might be done were suggested in the thread, including adding Energy Blast to Energy Melee or porting over Energy Assault), so you could have the Iron Man/Cyborg/etc. type characters that are tough, and can melee AND blast.

I try to keep my ideas within the realm of reason. I don't have the exprtise to know what is actually possible, but like to think I'm a fairly sensible fellow, so I try not to ask for the moon. Eventually, with enough tweaks and a few strategic additions, I think the game CAN capture that comic book feel. Not completely, perhaps, but enough.

Hope springs eternal, or I'd stop posting.

Sorry Johnny, I didn't realize you had made an actual point in this thread, and you were not just here to emotionaly support Ultimo_

Glad you know exactly what powers a hundred and fifty thousand people do, and dont want. Do you keep them all in your head, or have to write them down at all?

I, as well as many other people in this thread have responded to you and Ultimo_ in ways besides trolling the both of you. Funny thing is, is you both ignore valid arguments, and instead, respond to the flames. Just because that is what you respond to, does not mean that every poster that does not share your point of view is in the same clique.

This is the first time I have had any interaction with either of you. Guess what my first impression is? Open minded? Reasonable? Debates well? Great to spar with? All these qualities I can respect, even if I dont agree with your point of view. However, these are not qualities you have choosen to show.

I dont think anyone has said that it is liked. Many have said that it is very easy to make it a non issue. Personally, I would rather they increase the infl. cap than make a blanket change to endurance that may have unexpected consequences and may make is necessary for me to respec 50 toons who already have no problems running out of end. There is no magic to it. I am sorry you cant make a iron man clone, really I am. I guess I am just happy to use the tools they have given me to build my toons. That does not make me "broken".

Its a great place to slot the numina, miracle, and regen tissue uniques though isnt it?

To use your analogy, Its actually much closer to "Hey guys! We figured out how to get quartz! Quartz is always close to gold! Let us show you how so that you can get some too!" If you question how helpfull the community is, I suggest you look to the guide section. I am sure you have access, I dont believe that it is there for everyone except Johnny_Butane, Ultimo_ and "nubs".

I dont think we should ask for a global change for the better to something without being willing to take a global hit to something. I dont want to take a global hit for something that does not inconvience me in the least. Its not about accomplishments, who cares? There are many "nubs" who have way more 50's and infl. than I. Think I care that people can have H/Veats at 20 now? Not. At. All.

Johnny, everyone knows your Epeen is bigger, without you, we wouldnt have unlimited respecs, invuln wouldnt have been buffed(Thanks for IO's too man, think that was better for invuln than the def debuff res) Power customization is the direct result of your vocal clique as well if I understand correctly. Compared to you, I am hung like a flea. SO glad that carries so much weight with me.

I'm genuinely not interested in reading it, thanks.

In a very rational and respectfull manner, I dissagree that you appreciate it.

I dont think wanting no consequences to choices you have to make in this game to be reasonable at all. In comic terms, what is your kryptonite Ultimo_? Not just yours, what should everyones kryptonite be?

Ultimo_'s not a troll, per se ...

He's just /awfully/ convinced that he sees The Truth and tries to win his point, not with logic, but through sheer stamina and an astounding ability to endlessly restate what he's already said. He's kinda' like Statesman.

A genuine, bona fide troll is more along the lines of someone like "CC" who went into the defender forums a while back saying he had a great idea for a set that was ALL heals ... then started a thread in PWNZ that he had started said thread. And that it'd be a good one to watch.

Anyway ...

The most interesting thing to come out of his threads is, generally, a greater understanding of why the points he's championing are wrong.

Oh, I see. You're another one of those that knows my thoughts and feelings better than I do.

When did I say that? I said I wanted the game to have a more comic book feel to it. In THIS thread, I said I wanted the game to be more fun, by reducing the impact of a mechanic that many feel isn't fun.

Or are you trying to read my mind again (and failing again)?


Read the forum rules, accusing someone of being a troll is prohibited.

I won't speak for Johnny, but I have never made the implication you've suggested. My intentions have always been as I described above.


You're right, I can be stubborn. I'm not unreasonable, however. If it can be shown to me that an idea is bad, then I'll revise the idea or drop it entirely. I've done it before. However, I'm unlikely to just give up on an idea because people shout "YOU SUCK" endlessly.

People would take you more seriously if you posted builds and used math beyond "more" or "less" in your arguments. You tend to be wildly non-specific, and you end up getting combative and defensive when people try to get you to narrow your focus.

You wanna be a big picture guy, but you don't seem to grasp many of the little details that go into balance and gameplay. The folks who generate the most respect around here when it comes to buffs 'n' nerfs and other gameplay changes are those who understand the game's mechanics, why things are the way they are, and then weave their knowledge into a convincing view of how the game is and what it should become. You're showing up at this particular ballgame wanting to hit balls out of the park ... without first having gone to batter's practise.

In our time together, I believe I have gained some insight into the way you think. Its easy really. The only people you respond to with any sort of appreciation, are those that agree with you. All the evidence I need to make this assertation are in this small, short thread you have posted in a couple times. Anyone that posts anything contrary to your point, politely or not, you restate your position in the exact same way, and hope that no one notices. Besides, if you appreciated it, I bet we would've had a better dialog. Right now I feel like I am talking to an automated phone system that says "I want more end. If you agree Press one. If you dissagree, please hang up and call again".


You can't even answer the simple question of what you would give up to have more end. Not being able to give anything up is the same thing as wanting no consequences.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Rush - Freewill

I thought you wanted to see if a signifigant amount of people feel the same way as you do.

You also said that team based buffers should be able to solo and do as much damage for the same amount of endurance just as well as toons that dont get any buffs or debuffs. You ignore the fact that some toons do more than just damage.

You also think that everyone is soloing 90% of the time.

You wouldnt miss the endurance mechanic if it was removed entirely.

You wern't asking for you, you were asking for the new players! You were asking for the betterment of the game! Well, okay, maybe you are asking for you after all.

You are baffled by the thought that anyone would design a game in any way that may be "Unfun". Or, as most people would say "balanced".

No one should suffer a dissadvantage in relation to anyone else, regardless of experience, build, reflexes, skill or even IQ.

You would love if everyone had access to everything because then everything is the same. Then the game is based on skill. You also ignore the current game where everyone has access to everything, have the same chance to do everything, and where the game is based on skill.

You have secret logs and datamining to show that people are quiting because of end issues. Especially new players.

5 people logged onto your server TOTAL for a couple weeks. Must be end problems.

You said defenders use the same endurance for their Energy Blasts as Blasters, but do half the damage(Actually, its .75 when solo). Thus, they use twice the endurance defeating the same foes. That's not equality. Yet ignore the fact that while defenders are blasting, they are also buffing themselves, and debuffing the mobs, making them easier, and safer to defeat, for the same endurance.

You said you actually don't think simply universally increasing endurance would completely fix things, You want it equalized out in relation to damage only. Buffs/debuffs, controls, and aggro management apparently should cost no end because nobody uses those to defeat mobs in this game.

Anything else you wanted to add/detract?

I think CoH has done an admirable job of making available temp/veteran powers to address some of the most "tedious" aspects that people have complained about. Think about the annoyance of getting around the city, then think about all the things the devs have provided to overcome that annoyance -- the temp travel powers you can get from safeguard missions. The "teleport" thingies (mission teleporter, Ouroraboros, Pocket D VIP pass, WW tp). Ninja run. These days you can zip all over the city in the blink of an eye before you even have a travel power. Or you can even skip travel powers altogether.

All the new temp powers introduced in Issue 17 (including the Recovery Serum) are other good examples, allowing a character to fill in gaps in his capability, gaps that might be especially painful while soloing.

If you're finding some aspect of the game tedious, there is probably a way to address it. Look to the temp powers. Post for advice... plenty of people are willing to help.

And, you can always build better.

An untruth. I always begin from a position of respect. I never belittle anyone's opinion, even if it disagrees with mine. If someone disagrees with me, I may restate my position in an effort to convince them to agree, but I'll never dismiss them as "wrong."

You want an answer to that, it's easy. I'm not prepared to give up anything. WHat would be the point of making the game more fun by making endurance less onerous, only to make the game less fun again by taking something else away?

I did. I wanted to see if others wanted to have the impact of endurance on their fun to be reduced.

Right, that IS what I said - in a different thread. I reiterated it here when that other thread was referenced.

Not 90% of the time, but a lot of the time.

Quite true. However, I realize it's intended to balance things to some degree, and removing it entirely would be detrimental to the game in its current state. That's why I didn't suggest that.

I'm making a suggestion for the sake of everyone, and yes, that does include me. It's not supposed to?

No, unfun does not equal balanced. It does baffle me that the game would have anything designed into it that was intended to be not fun. That's not the same thing as balance, though.

Again, not what I said. I said the classes shouldn't suffer imbalances.

Not everyone has access to everything. Show me a Tanker with Energy Blasts or Force Fields. Show me a Scrapper with Super Strength.

Nope, I don't and never claimed to.

Nope, it does suggest that players aren't playing, though.

That's true, Defenders have other powers designed for defense (be it by way of debuff or buff). By the same token, Blasters have MORE offense to provide them with their variation of defense - defeat the enemy quickly so he doesn't get to attack you. It doesn't change that Defenders are spending more for their damage than Blasters.

I said I don't think that's the best way, but it would be acceptable. The best way would be to recalibrate things so everyone was on roughly the same level of performance. Simply increasing endurance across the board would allieviate some problems, but wouldn't change the discrepancies between the ATs.

Ya, that link was posted earlier in this thread. While those are useful bandaids, I don't see them as fixing the underlying problems.

I don't see why not, conceptually speaking. I mean, the Tanker class is meant to have an offense and a defense. Force Fields is a defensive set. I don't think it would work for Tankers as it's currently set up, power sets are not designed in such a way that they could be universal.

Does anyone else remember how Ultimo started a whole thread complaining about how Forcefield didn't provide his defender enough mitigation?

So what he really means is Which probably goes a long way to explaining why he thinks everything could be balanced if everyone could have everything.

When a person demonstrates that when it pertains to a topic that they are either incompetent, or dishonest, it is not unwise to disregard what they have to say on the topic. Ultimo has demonstrated that he is both.

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You respectfully ignored 75% of my arguments.

So you do indeed want something for nothing. You dont want there to be any consequences to choices you make in the game. Guess I read your mind after all. Spooky.



I think it is safe to say you have different expectations of the game than most other subscribers.

So to clarify for me, only damage matters?

Sorry, you definately said 90% of the time. Not alot of the time, not a signifigant amount of time. Everyone solo's 90% of the time. You are not everyone, sorry to break that to you.

To some degree? EVERYTHING in this game is designed to balance it to some degree. If you take a little bit off of one side of an even weighted scale, is that scale still balanced?

The problem I have, is when you ask something in an altruistic tone, but cannot be objective about it, means it is a subjective, and selfish request. That seems to me as though you are not actually being altruistic. You ask for something the same way a 9 year old asks for ice cream for everyone, just so that he gets some. He doest actually care if everyone else got some, as long as he did.

Is that a lie? Debateable. Is that deceitful? I would say so. You dont care about the new player, or anyone else for that matter. As long as you are happy.

The problem for you, is that balanced is unfun.

Yet you cannot see that the classes dont suffer imbalances and are already balanced against each other. That does not mean they all specialize in the same thing.

You have access to the same things I do. That is equality. That means you have access to everything in the game. If that is not what you mean, you will need to communicate what you mean in a way that people understand. Being purposely vague does not help.

Now, it would seem as though you dont want there to be any AT's period. You would probably also like to get rid of powersets and just pick whatever powers fit your theme the best. Thats fine, sounds great. Also sounds like a different game entirely.

I believe powerset prolifieration will one day port a super strength powerset to scrappers, with modifications to some powers. Tankers will never get force fields, sorry. Defenders also wont get the defensive sets of tankers, brutes, scrappers, or stalkers just because they share the same etymological root in their powerset and AT names.


Oh, you know this because you have telepathic abilities? How do you know why they are quiting then? With all due respect, I doubt that you have your finger on the pulse of this game mate.



There could be many reasons. You might be on at a low pop time, however span that over several weeks, and that explanation seems unlikely. Perhaps there is a bug with the team search window, and you could be nominated for the bug hunter badge. Perhaps everyone but five people on your server have you on ignore. Maybe, as you spend 90% of your time solo, you just were not paying attention and didn't care what others were doing, as long as it didnt interfere with your fun. Anyone can pull reasons out of thin air eh?

You are SOOO close, just a little more, and you might understand a little about game balance, keep trying...

... Oh... and you lost it. Here you go once more. The same dicrepancies accross the AT's are what actually balances them against each other. That is what makes them different AT's. If you dont want to play a super hero game that is AT based, you should perhaps conserve your efforts here and concentrate on developing that game you keep talking about.

Square peg round hole!

Firstly I’d like to say, we should be a little careful in discussing ‘Fun’. Fun is broadly subjective, and while there is a certain consensus in many ways, we never really know where we, as individuals, fall on that bell-curve.

The Endurance mechanic is designed to be a limit on a character’s capabilities, both for game balance reasons, and for game design reasons. Game Design, in particular, is relevant here.

I’d like to talk about 3 elements of game design, and how they interact with ‘End’; Incentive, Achievement and Process. The endurance mechanic, as it functions, serves as an incentive to level-up and to learn about how the game works, an incentive to engage with the game, and seek out ways to manage or mitigate the limiting effect it has. Once a player has learnt about how End works, how to manage it, and how to mitigate it, they will play ‘better’ (somewhat), succeeded more easily, and be able to take on more difficult things. This will (or should) lead to a sense of achievement. All of this, of-course, takes time, it is a Process. It will keep a player playing longer, not just by taking time in and of itself, but by leading to a deeper investment in the game; knowledge that is gained wants to be used.

This can go further. When a player seeks ways to mitigate the effects of End even further, they will pursue the options there are for that, this will take time, it will further the Process, and feelings of achievement.

I guess, mainly, what I’m trying to say; is you are /supposed/ to dislike endurance management, and you are supposed to take measures in the game itself, as part of the game, to handle it. That, at least, is how it is (or seems to me to be) designed.


The above is ultimatly my own understanding, I dont make games for a living, I'm no expert. I ilke to think that I have at least the outline of somthing, and that I've comunicated it well enought. What do you think?

I would rephrase it a little... you are supposed to be challenged by end management. Just like you are supposed to be challenged by bad guys. Do we say there is something wrong with the hit point system because we keep face-planting? Do we say there is something wrong with the leveling system because we don't get to 50 in four or five hours? No, we expect to be challenged, and if we weren't we would dismiss the game as "too easy."

I think Pendix is right on in saying that "fun" in games is inherent in overcoming challenges and feeling a sense of accomplishment. Maybe the OP doesn't find it fun to overcome the endurance challenge, and thus that part of the game is tedious to him. But it seems that -- while most of use also find end management challenging -- we don't mind, or we even think it's fun to master it.

There are a lot of ways to master end, and most of them have been listed in this thread. I think if one takes some of the offered advice, one will really not have a problem standing around catching one's breath.

is that everything in a game is supposed to be fun. This demonstrates no actual idea of what constitutes a game, or what constitutes fun. Everquest, for example, was crammed to the gills with things that aren't fun. Mario has things in it that aren't fun. WoW, LOTRO, Checkers, Awari, Tic-tac-toe, they're all composed of things that aren't fun and then ways to avoid that unfun-ness.

Ultimo's statement is to try and cast everything in the light of common sense, and it falls far short of it because it only sounds reasonable and sensible to someone without any understanding of the elements he's talking about. Almost anyone can play games, not everyone can design them - but he seeks to denigrate expertise and design sense in lgiht of folksy common sense.

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