The game is tedious

Hmm. Well I have varied opinions on this. But my main question lately is whether in CoH2 the concept of "endurance" shouldn't be dropped entirely. It's main function in CoH1 is highly questionable. If it was intended to slow us down its failed at it. The cost of running toggles seems to have been calibrated to hit the endurance bar, and the chief player response to that is simply to build characters so that endurance is ignorable. Meanwhile the existence of endurance makes some builds nearly unplayable until higher levels. Not saying we should change it in COH1, but whatever endurance was meant to do, it doesn't do it.

Well after playing some of the most endurence draining builds in the game (every tanker there is and SR scrapper) i can safely say that its down to build. Endurence is only really an issue up to level 22 where you can get SOs.

Stamina alone without slots isnt good enough to help on things like SR, but regular slotting easily stops endurence use getting out of hand.

Fire/SR was one of the biggest endurence challenges I have had, the toggles alone can pretty much eat up your recovery without endurence reductions, but one SO level endurence reduction in each power and each toggle now stops me ever going below 70% endurence even in AV battles. This wasnt just at level 50, its been that way since level 22 when I always go for level 25 IOs that last me till level 50.

If you have endurence issues then all I can suggest is slot more endurence reductions. As a general rule, I tend to stick one end reduction on each toggle unless its over the standard 0.33/s in which case I use two. Sets mean you dont even need that.

I agree with you about endurence being a pain in the butt up to level 22 though. Ever tried playing a tank pre SO level? Its horrid! Your basically the only class in game that cant do your job, you cant use your toggles because it destroys your recovery, without that you cant hold mobs because you arent attacking and your resists/defence isnt at a point where you cant take the hits either very well. If anything needs help endurence wise pre level 22 its tankers and brutes since there the ones getting hit most

Endurance is one of the, if not the, most hated mechanics in the game.

The devs cop to this. It's not even worth arguing. They admit to it.

It is nothing more than a throttle for fun.

There's really not much else that needs to be said, other than I suspect going forward that Going Rogue's content will improve on the pre-20 situation. There's a number of possibilities as to how.

Perhaps the Praetorian enemies there have a different general balance point, like lower HP but more damage, thus requiring fewer attacks to defeat them.

The devs claim the GR missions are designed much differently. Perhaps they are designed for alternative routes of completion besides having to fight every mob on the map.

Temp powers given by the mission contact might be used more often and to greater effect. Consider a mission about defeating Clockwork. The contact gives players an Anti-Clockwork Gun that uses no endurance and only damages Clockwork.

Or it could be as simple as being given buffs to things like Recovery as rewards for completing missions, like we have now with Safeguards and Mayhems. If you're working for the Praetorian PD, they give you the standard issue Adrenal Booster patch or somesuch. You may even build up a collection of powers/buffs and get stripped of them when you leave to Primal Earth.

I agree with Ultimo_ but I'm waiting to see if the devs use the chance to correct the problem with GR.



.

Not meaning to flame though but I am kind of getting tired about people complaining and wanting the game easymode... if anything the game is too easy as it is... Im looking at you AE

The endurence system has been in the game for years and its been one of the few challenging points of the game, remove that and theres no much else to challenge players pre level 22. After 22 everything is pretty much easymode as it is, even +4 isnt much of a challenge once you have a decent charecter slotted at 50.

If anything we need more difficulty not making the game pointlessly easy like a lot of the newer players seem to cry for. I point back to the hollows change, back before it was changed it was actually a fun, sometimes frustrating challenge to the game. Now its pretty much just another zone with no difficulty in it at all.

To those who reply "build better":

I don't think the argument goes that endurance trouble is completely unavoidable, it's that it isn't a fun or interesting limitation on your character's abilities, and therefore not that fun to build around. I'm not advocating the abolition of endurance or anything like that - the game is balanced around it - but I do sympathize with his view. It seems rather intolerant and disrespectful to "refute" a risky viewpoint in two words, particularly when its author acknowledges the controversy of it and specifically requests thoughtful replies.

Rush Bolt, All Hell, Panzerwaffen, DrHR:
I've been around for several years, I know how to build. All my characters have Stamina, triple slotted and endurance reduction in every power. The point, which you either missed or ignored, is that it's not fun standing around unable to act. Not in this game, nor in any other.

CaptA:
I'm referring to characters throughout their careers, and not just between battles.

Psycho Jas:
Ok...

Iceboxer:
It's most obvious and crippling on characters that do less damage because they're using more endurance to defeat the same foes. It's still an issue all around, though.

ShoeTattoo:
I agree.

SinisterDirge:
Endurance should be part of the game. I said that in the first post. However, it shouldn't be a "constraint" on fun. As it is, it's excessively constraining.
I agree soloability is important, but I do think EVERY character should be comparably able to do so.

Biospark:
You illustrate part of what I'm saying. We spend a lot of time and energy achieving higher levels and new, cool powers, then can't use them because we're out of endurance. Why bother leveling if I'm going to be forced to use my Power Bolts instead of everything else due to endurance issues. Your suggestions are valuable, but I think they're a band-aid on a broken leg. They don't really solve the problem.

Frosticus:
Chances are you're using less endurance because your allies are defeating the foes for you, or because there's someone with an endurance reducing power helping you. Again, as mentioned above, you shouldn't need a PhD in character design to be able to have fun with it. Frankenslotting and advanced building and whatnot is well and good, but often isn't useful and is usually beyond the casual player.
Soloability is important. I'd be willing to bet 90% of the time people are soloing in the game. Every class should be equally able to solo (though through different means) and should still bring something unique to a team. THAT would be good design.

Postagulous:
If you say so...

Nethergoat:
Then you're a rarity, or have spent billions of Influence on your character.

Firewyvern:
Yes, I have, and as I said in the original post, none of them are as restrictive as this game is. I can go to Lord of the Rings Online and fight pretty much continuously without fear of running out of power before I defeat my foe. That is, battles are decided not by lack of power, but by lack of health, which is how it should be.

Emberley:
Personal slights won't change the fact that endurance costs are excessive.

Fulmens:
Personal attacks, such as blatantly accusing me of lies, will be reported. Watch your step.

Firey-Enforcer:
As I mentioned, I'm referring to characters across all levels.

GavinRuneBlade:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a total revamp, just an assesment and a recalibration.

Rush Bolt:
The case is in experience. That is, it's just not fun running out of endurance so fast. Sure, if you're fighting an army, or a foe that takes an unusual long time to beat, then perhaps you should have an issue. Fighting a typical spawn should not exhaust you. If you want numbers, just compare damage output. All characters are expected to defeat the same foes, meaning they all have to inflict the same total damage. Some deal that damage for less endurance. THAT is part of the problem. As I said before, it should be a limit, but not on fun.

Uberguy:
I'll admit I have made some concept builds, but I AM an experienced player. I HAVE taken advice and tried many of the suggestions offered. I've found them all to be inadequate. Yes, build should have some impact, and yes tactics should be important, but if the main tactic inthe game is NOT doing anything because you have no endurance then I see that as a problem. I've also said in the past, that if a build is to be possible, it should be capable, too. I'm not pretending designing that is easy, but it sure wouldn't be hard to make endurance use less prohibitive. Also, I feel I should warn you against personal slights. You haven't made any directly, but you're treading the line. I hope we can keep things civil and hopefully productive.

Fulmens:
I wasn't aware of that new power until this thread, but it only illustrates to me that the devs have recognized there's an issue. Again, I see it as a band-aid, not a solution.

Milady's Knight:
I agree with your analysis, but I don't think the devs have done enough.

Cybernaut:
Having Rest always available would certainly be nice, but it's not really between battles that the problem lies. Starting at SOs would be nice, but again, I don't think it fixes the main issue.

Oedipus Tex:
I'd agree with you, but I do think Endurance should be in the game. I just find its impact far too significant. I certainly wouldn't miss it if it was removed entirely, though.

Sunstormer:
It just seems to me the challenge should be overcoming the enemy, not your endurance woes.

Johhny Butane:
Nice to see someone in agreement with me. I also hope the devs will do something with the endurance situation.

Merry Mint:
I think you're getting what I'm saying. Endurance should be part of the game, just not the main obstacle to overcome.




I apologize in advance as I'm not likely to make a detailed response like this again, it's just too hard to keep track of everything and is rather time consuming. I'll respond to points I find particularly interesting or illuminating, and I thank you all for your considered responses.

Endurance can be a pain at low levels (and even after heavy IO investment on a few builds) but there are plenty of ways to cope with it:

- Slot an endurance reduction DO in each attack starting at level 12 as your second priority (accuracy being the first priority since a miss is wasted endurance)

- Avoid damage auras and high endurance toggles pre-Stamina. Don't even run defensive shields on Scrappers or Tanks unless you really need them (like for a boss).

- Do use AoEs, but only if you can hit a group. If you hit 3+ targets an AoE is more endurance efficient than a single target attack.

- Attacks use more endurance per minute than most toggles. Be sure to slot them accordingly. (Do slot any toggles for end reduction too unless they're dirt cheap like combat Jumping).

- Pick the right power set for your playstyle. If you solo a lot, avoid things like Earth Controllers and certain Defenders that have low damage outputs since you'll have to attack longer (and burn more endurance) to win a fight. I find Blasters incredibly energy efficient since all they do is blast things... drop an SO worth of end reduction in each power and you'll rarely have to worry about your blue bar even before Stamina.

- IOs are your friends. It's actually cheaper to frankenslot (pick cheap set IOs just for the enhancement values and don't try for good set bonuses) in the late 20s to early 30s than it is to buy SOs through 50. You can get very high enhancement values that way, such as 90%+ damage and 60% or so accuracy, recharge and endurance reduction, which will pretty much eliminate most characters' endurance problems unless they're Plant/Storm or something similarly power hungry.

And if you really do want to play one of those high endurance combinations, run a lot of task forces and use the merits to buy Miracle and Numina's recovery uniques to put in Health. They're expensive, but a few power sets are very hard to get endurance neutral without them.

Or just play a Regen Scrapper or a Willpower Tanker, Scrapper, or Brute and take Quick Recovery plus Stamina. You'll pretty much never have to look at your blue bar.

Stryker:
Some good suggestions on how to cope with the problem, but again, the problem still exists.

Rush Bolt:
This has little to do with my personal performance. As I say, I've considerable experience and rarely have any difficulty with anything in the game. The problem is it's just not fun playing when I'm more concerned with conserving endurance than defeating the enemy.

Also, this is not some personal crusade (well, maybe a little). The fact is, I'm not the only one that has said this, and it's been brought up countless times over the years. That suggests to me that there's some kind of a problem that needs to be examined.

Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters.

Clearly we should resolve the global epidemic of children lacking ponies then. After all, if it's brought up enough times, it's clearly a problem to be addressed, right?

The "problem" exists because it is designed to exist. It is intended that you should have to consider the costs of your activities. It means you need to choose how to slot your powers and how to use them efficiently.

You see that as a roadblock that stops everything.
I see it as a hurdle to be overcome... which all of my characters do.

It's that sort of progression and growth in the character as it overcomes its own inherent challenges that I find enjoyable.

Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize

I do see your point, I just think the hurdle is set too high. It's far too prominent a hindrance, and it directly affects how much fun the game is to play.

I agree with Ultimo in some ways.

Endurance management can be tedious, especially for new players. I dont find it a problem in the long term. I usually take Stamina, unless I've got an alternative plan, and my 50s sometimes run out of endurance if they really hammer their AoEs and other expensive powers still. But that feels as it should be. A superhero should be able to go all out and temporarily expend all their energy in a big sustained salvo.

Back when I started though - hoo boy! Took me a while to figure out that turning sprint off was a good idea. And that was on high DPE archetypes, mainly Blasters.

Its good to have limiting mechanisms, but endurance as it stands is slanted far too ehavily to the start of the game. The feeling of relief you get every time you hit 20 and get your END under control is not worth ther fact that the game is less enjoyable and more grindy than it should be in the 10-20 range.

just a stray thought, but maybe there could be some consideration given to creating some kind of a sliding scale for endurance use in the lower levels. similar to what was done to help out accuracy at lower levels.

overall though, have to say that I don't really mind the current system. yes, it's a bit frustrating at times when I start new characters. but I really think a large part of that is selective amnesia, forgetting that my IO'ed out lvl 50 didn't always rip through whole missions without having to pause once to recover endurance

to me, part of the fun is to play around with different build combinations to see what works best - high recharge, capped defenses, lots of recovery, lots of regen, etc. I have several characters, like blasters, that can be defeated with a mostly full blue bar. does that mean we should be given a large increase to health? it's no fun faceplanting. or should we be given almost instant recharge for all powers because it's more fun to use my nukes than my little level 1 powers?

is the current system perfect, definitely not. but I do think we have been given a lot of flexibility to tailor many things to fit your own concept of fun. want those big hitters up more often, build for massive recharge and take hasten. want to be safer, even if it takes you longer to defeat something, then take powers like weave to help cap some of your defenses. don't like to be slowed down by a lack of endurance, then choose to slot accordingly. pass up some of the IO set bonuses to frankenslot for endurance or devote an extra slot here and there to endurance enhancements.

I think DrMike is exactly right. I was wondering what to contribute here, and he's pretty much said it. I also agree with an earlier comment that no power pool should be considered a necessity like the Fitness pool is. I'd like more versatility in my pool selections. Heck, I'd love to try Presence someday, or Invisibility. Maybe multiple travel pools for multiple situations. But Fitness always takes that one pool selection. I've had one character I built without it to prove it could be done, but it ended up being much more fun by respecing and getting Fitness after all.

Endurance can be difficult in low levels for certain characters. I've given up on those and moved on to other characters. I'd like the option to not feel like I have to give up (never got my Elec-Elec Brute very far, though hear it's a great time later on). Just way too frustrating.

I don't agree with the OP's opinion that you spend a lot of time standing around in battles waiting for END to recharge. I think that's overstating the issue. And for those particularly heavy characters, I tend to stock up on blue inspirations until I get to the magic 20's.

I suppose the only alternative that makes a lot of sense might be to decrease damage potential. A "new" superhero wouldn't have mastered his powers yet, and might have to hit a lot more times to take down an enemy. I've never agreed with the ToHit penalties. I'm a superhero. I'm going to hit what I'm trying to hit. I just may not do much damage if my enemy is powerful too. But that's another story...

So in summary, I agree it's a difficulty, I agree Stamina shouldn't be required, I don't agree it's as difficult as the OP makes it sound, but I would like some alternatives so that I can enjoy endurance heavy characters their entire careers. And I would caution the OP to insinuate that elements of the game are "not fun" without qualifying it as opinion (though that's insinuated). I have a friend who plays who finds it fun to take on the most challenging aspects of game mechanics and figure them out to use to his advantage. It is a game, after all.

Cheers.