The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Is my bringing up the kids and ponies thing ridiculous? Yes. Of course it is. It's supposed to be. It's exactly the same as the "argument" that if people bring up something often enough, it's obviously a problem. It doesn't.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
@Rush_Bolt
Really, you're constant harping on belittling posts via passive aggression is getting to the point of literal ridiculousness. As in deserving of ridicule. You deliberately choose children with ponies to make the comparison of other posters to spoiled children. That is an insult. No one is being that rude to you, please cut it out. However, I lay out a counter challenge to you. I posit that the sheer weight of builds with stamina compared to builds without stamina is proof that the current system is borked. If you can find more builds that are stamina free than we can find with stamina, I'll agree that endurance costs are not too high in general. But when 100% of the top performing builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use stamina, and when 100% of the lowest common denominator builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use it, it is clearly only optional in the same sense that IOs are optional. When one specific power is that widely used to have basic functionality (low-end builds) and top tier performance (high-end builds) something is out of whack. If it were just those going for AVs with no temps and no insps, then fine. If it were just idiots who were wasting power picks like the guys with flurry, jump kick and whirlwind. Fine. But when it is across the whole spectrum on all ATs and on all powersets that don't have a built-in substitute as well as most that do (even most WillPower and Regen builds take stamina for example), I posit that the sheer volume of those builds with stamina compared to those without is the numerical proof. I'm sure you'll repeat your pathetic example as I've cited a number of people speaking. But the goal of the game is to have fun. Running out of endurance is not fun. Having enough endurance is not godmode. As a game, the voice of the crowd is sometimes the only statistic that is needed. I posit that endurance is one of those circumstances. Please note that I am not claiming all circumstances the voice of the majority is enough. I am claiming in this specific instance it is. Too many people have a negative experience of the game without stamina. As people have a negative experience they leave the game. That's not good for the company that makes the game's revenue. In turn that is not good for those of us who want the game to stick around. Endurance is not like a pony, it is not optional it is not a luxury. It seems to be the core throttle mechanic for experience gain. It is also the most obvious and basic limit on a new player's fun. That's qualitatively different from a pony. If you can't see that basic fact, then you truly do deserve to be ridiculed. |
Here's the deal with Stamina: What do players want to do? They want to go all out and not have to worry about their blue bar. That's what I want. that's what you want. That's what Ultimo_ wants. Nobody likes having to worry (too much) about the blue bar.
But having to think about your choices is why it exists. Without it, we'd be right back to the old 1x ACC, 5x DMG (except for ED, of course). And if it didn't exist, what limiter mechanic would the Devs fall back to? Recharge times? Cast times?
END management is a pain.
END management is a necessary pain.
EDIT: And y'know... we have the Basic: the blue bar. And we've got a veritable ton of Luxury add-ons: Stamina, Enhancements, Self Buffs, Ally Buffs (from teammates), IOs, Inspirations, Base Empowerment Buffs, and the new Recipe power. So yeah, I think I'll be sticking with Pony for this thread.
Now, if you can convince the Devs to give everyone a pony, I will gladly shut up and accept my pony. Be sure it's a palomino though. They're the prettiest of ponies.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Stryker:
Some good suggestions on how to cope with the problem, but again, the problem still exists. Rush Bolt: This has little to do with my personal performance. As I say, I've considerable experience and rarely have any difficulty with anything in the game. The problem is it's just not fun playing when I'm more concerned with conserving endurance than defeating the enemy. Also, this is not some personal crusade (well, maybe a little). The fact is, I'm not the only one that has said this, and it's been brought up countless times over the years. That suggests to me that there's some kind of a problem that needs to be examined. Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters. |
It's not a problem. It's working as intended. You do stuff -> you get tired. Without endurance usage it would all be "how fast can I press a button" That's "NOT FUN" either.
You may not be the only one who says this (as you stated above) but you are in the overwhelming minority.
Endurance use management takes only a small amount of common sense to achieve. I'd like think most of us have at least that.
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
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I agree that the brawl change was significant, especially for lower level characters that don't have saturated attack chains based on other powers.|
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter
After reading through most of the thread, I noticed one recent update to the game that has not been mentioned: The Endurance-free Brawl and Endurance-cost reduction of the origin power. These features provides low-level characters of all ATs an early attack chain with minimal endurance use. This can make a significant impact in early gameplay, particularly when AT damage modifiers have less of an impact and enemy hitpoints/resistances are mostly uniform.
In later gameplay, I think that the insistance upon endurance management is critical to balancing gameplay. Our most powerful abilities should be more taxing on our endurance as they require greater concentration/energy/effort/etc. to perform. While some individual powers may benefit from a review as to the endurance cost currently assigned versus the benefits of said power, endurance consumption as a concept is an integral part of gameplay. It forces players to careful consider the attributes of their powers and slot according to their goals. Sacrifices can be made to reduce endurance consumption rather than pursuing Stamina and increasing endurance recovery. Many players simply prefer to focus on other slotting goals such as max Damage, high Accuracy, and Recharge Reduction. Such is the tradeoff. It's hard out here for a metahuman. |
One possible solution to lower level endurance problems would be to put endurance costs for some powers on a sliding scale that varies with the level of the character. The potency of many powers goes up with the level of the character anyways, which provides some justification for making them cost more later; you learn to put a little more of yourself into that stone mallet at level 45 than at level 15, so it costs a little more endurance to do it after your character matures. As you level up, you learn to dig a little deeper into yourself to pull that healing aura out of ... wherever that healing aura come from, so it works better and it costs you a little more endurance to cast it.
The amount of the discount need not be that high, given all the steps that have already been taken to ease endurance issues at lower levels.
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And that's why we have dual builds. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No, I did it with an FF/Ene Def and got him to DOs to prove that anything can solo. if you are soloing, you build for soloing. You can't build for teaming and then gripe about lack of solo-ability.
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To me, one of the best things ever introduced to the game. Sure, you can't use them from 1-10, but 1-10 doesn't take that long, even solo on a slower soloer. (Generally, I'll build with a few more team-leaning powers from 1-10, and then split off the solo build after that point.)
Time to go through Outbreak on a new FF/Rad: 7.5 minutes [roughly]. No origin powers.
Time to go through to level 2 in AP on a new FF/Rad: 2:33. Level 3 was 6:29 and I hadn't gone back to level yet.
Time to go through to level 2 and 3 on a new energy/energy blaster in the AP parking lot: 1:45 and 5:34.
SO much slower.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
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I think the issue is this game was designed initially with less of a focus on soloing and to be played slower and more deliberately than most players want to play it now. Castle has pointed out that team buffs remove the need for Stamina or downtime, but the fact of the matter is, few people want to be unable to solo well and nobody likes downtime, so Stamina becomes mandatory.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
At any rate, it's clearly far too late in the life cycle of this game to remove endurance as a mechanic, but I expect that if the CoH developers were to start work on a different game, they would not retain the endurance mechanic as it is, but rather rework it as a limiter on performance rather than activity - in other words, set the baseline on performance and activity at zero endurance consumption, and reserve endurance for abilities that boost performance above this baseline.
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They aimed lower for average performance than most people want, so when you're well below that average in the early levels, it's very frustrating.
They've done a few things to help correct this, however. Making Brawl zero cost end means you always have at least one attack to use at zero endurance, even if it's a pathetic one. If it wasn't for the issues it would cause with IO sets, I'd suggest they should do the same to all Tier 1 attacks. The Beginner's Luck mechanic lowers the number of whiff attacks and indirectly improves endurance effiency in the lower levels, and the tweaks to the leveling curve that have already been mentioned means you get to the 20's and SO's faster.
The devs have been trying to address some of the issues in the lower levels, but that doesn't change the fact the mechanic is frustrating and unfun.
Going forward in CoH 2, yeah I can see them not making the same mistakes. It's interesting to see what Cryptic did when they started fresh with Champions for an endurance system, considering they have the same knowledge of CoX's system, and what players think of it, as the current devs.
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[QUOTE=Rush_Bolt;2911194]Is my bringing up the kids and ponies thing ridiculous? Yes. Of course it is. It's supposed to be. It's exactly the same as the "argument" that if people bring up something often enough, it's obviously a problem. It doesn't.
Here's the deal with Stamina: What do players want to do? They want to go all out and not have to worry about their blue bar. That's what I want. that's what you want. That's what Ultimo_ wants. Nobody likes having to worry (too much) about the blue bar. [quote]I think this is a slippery slope fallacy that many people bring up over and over. No one who is asking for endurance to be tweaked is asking for godmode or infinite sustainability across all powersets with no slotting of endurance. At least I have not seen such a post and have not made one myself. I would like somewhere from 10 to 15 seconds more life out of my blue bar when I have 20-35% end reduction in every power (attack, toggle, clickie, all of them) that can accept it. That's not god mode. But, both when soloing and when teamed it would make a huge difference in cutting down the time spent resting. In a team one player can step aside to rest. But solo everything stops. So I agree with Frosticus that this is more of a soloist issue.
Again, that comes to helping the new players have a fun experience so they keep playing.
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I do not support removing it altogether. I do support a small adjustment to either base recovery rates or power cost ratios or both. Anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds more life for most poorly-designed builds. With the recovery between spawns that would let people who are resting every spawn, go sometimes three without a rest. This is not godmode, but it is a huge quality of life change.|
But having to think about your choices is why it exists. Without it, we'd be right back to the old 1x ACC, 5x DMG (except for ED, of course). And if it didn't exist, what limiter mechanic would the Devs fall back to? Recharge times? Cast times? END management is a pain. END management is a necessary pain. |
This issue, in some ways is a class splitting issue. The better the player the less impact it has. Thus it penalizes new players. Those who don't know how to make a proper build. those who don't know proper slotting. Those who don't know to scroll down past the DOs at the store so they actually can buy SOs at level 22.
Play in pugs. Look at people's builds and watch their damage numbers and end usage. Lots of people are not as good as you at making builds. Lots of them. I posit that the difficulty in making the endurance bar last "long enough to have fun with this character" is negligible for a skilled veteran, but too high for a new player, and marginally too annoying for those of us in the middle (some have more patience than others and two of my friends actually like the challenge of designing builds more than playing the game).
Removing it is going too far the other way, and I have never supported that position. And also, I have never seen anyone ask for a godmode. Though I have seen many people who are the sort who think the game is too easy level the accusation.
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| EDIT: And y'know... we have the Basic: the blue bar. And we've got a veritable ton of Luxury add-ons: Stamina, Enhancements, Self Buffs, Ally Buffs (from teammates), IOs, Inspirations, Base Empowerment Buffs, and the new Recipe power. So yeah, I think I'll be sticking with Pony for this thread. |
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| Now, if you can convince the Devs to give everyone a pony, I will gladly shut up and accept my pony. Be sure it's a palomino though. They're the prettiest of ponies. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I think it IS fun.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters.
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I enjoy overcoming obstacles and reaching the point where my characters no longer have to be concerned with end is a fun obstacle to overcome.
Since your fun is no more valid than mine, please find a valid argument to make against the current endurance status quo.
The other point is that end is a balance factor for the game.
If it were nullified entirely they would need to introduce some new balance factor which I doubt very much you would think is "fun".
There are no free lunches in MMO gaming. Sure you can keep wishing for that Magic Pony to come along and make everything all better, but it ain't gonna happen.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
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You can look at the statements made with builds though. With hasten it is for added benefit. For stamina, it is full of "I can't stand the low levels" "pre-stamina this character sucked", etc. Ever see a post like that about haste? stamina is clearly perceived to be removing a barrier to fun. haste is not described in that way. I think, and I may be wrong but I'm fairly confident, that this is a significant qualitative difference between the two.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This may not prove the argument that you think it does. Consider the parallel argument that the ubiquitous use of Hasten (or other global recharge bonuses) suggests that the base recharge times of our powers are too long.
While that's possibly a logical argument, it's not the one that's usually presented for Hasten's common use. Instead, people point out that Hasten is often taken because the benefits of doing so are so high. So applying that to Stamina, the alternative argument is not that people take Stamina because their base recovery is too low, or that their powers cost too much, but rather that the return on investment for taking Stamina is so good that a lot of players choose to take that route. Whether that means life without Stamina is inadequate is more of a "glass half full/empty" discussion. Most everyone likes to be able to fight longer and faster, so most people will consider more endurance to be better, but that fact alone doesn't make clear what level of endurance is objectively inadequate. |
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
If we accept that there are some builds that absolutely require stamina (and I do as I've played some of them like a fire/storm controller heh) we have to then determine if that is a negative thing.
Is it any different than an illusion controller or dominator requiring hasten if they want to have PA or domination up more consistently? Is it any different than an MM that wants to tank requiring provoke? Is it any different than a stone armor requiring teleport (or a ton of IO's) if they want to move at a reasonable rate? Is it any different than a large number of builds that require weave (or manuevers) to hit softcap? Having something be required to make it work isn't necessarily a bad thing. If everyone required stamina it would be, but they really don't. Nearly every build I make requires stamina, but I tend to solo a fair amount and I accept that environment has different build needs than when teaming. |
However on the builds, I posit that endurance management is different than a tankermind needing presence. Again it's not just specific builds or characters with specific purposes. It is all builds across all ATs across nearly all powersets. That is a qualitative difference from "tankerminds".
Also, the build issue, I believe is a class issue. Not meaning AT, but as in class-warfare. Have's and Have-Not's. I believe (from observation I will grant you) that the skilled players have no trouble with it but the new players and the low-skill and the middle-skill have too much trouble with it. Too much defined as it is the clearest and most common limit on the fun-factor of this game.
Both teamed and solo. At least in a team the rest can keep going while one rests. But when I'm in a pug, and I see one guy stopping every second spawn, I know he's not having as much fun as the rest of us. Watching everyone else kick *** when you're gasping for breath makes you delete your character. Do it too many times and you delete the game.
At low skill levels, this is too easy and too common.
I do agree that it is not an issue at all for skilled builders. I do still believe it is a problem for the game community on the whole. As for your other claims, I do not support infinite endurance and never asked for it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Not good enough? Then I guess we'll have to make all your powers cost zero endurance. Then you'll have fun. Except you might still get killed. So we'll make your health bar never drop below 5 HP. Except you might not be able to kill certain foes, like AVs and GMs. So we'll multiply the damage your attacks do by 100. Except you might not be able to kill a ton of enemies at once, and that would be fun. So we'll take all your powers away and give you [Kill Monsters], a power that with one click will kill everything on the map for you.
Now you can have fun, because the game's not too hard for you. |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Not Rush, obviously, but...
Stamina's in an interesting place, power-wise. It's perceived as necessary - but why? Do you play tanks or scrappers? How often do you detoggle your armors intentionally? I mean, if you're fighting (say) Family, you don't need Energy/Negative Energy/Fire/Cold protection - but I bet your character's running those armors as well. If you (and I do mean a generic you here as well as the specific) get killed, I bet you turn on everything or nearly everything. Now, some you can't help it - Fire tanks, for instance, have a grand total of two armors, and one of them carries status protection. But do you leave, say, Blazing Aura on? Watch as you play one day - I'd bet you'll see a number of Fire tanks SSing/SJing/etc. to the mission with BA on. |
I manage my toggles. But I still have trouble. I have a bs/regen with quick recovery, stamina, and physical perfection with 20%-50% end reduction in all attacks who runs out from time to time. I have an elec/elec who never does and hasn't got stamina and doesn't use powersink to recover endurance.
I do posit that the skill required to build like this is too high. Not that it can't be done, but that not enough players who need to do it have the skills to do it.
Since these are generally new players, I further posit this is unhealthy for the player base long-term.
Stamina is perceived as necessary because there are so many other ways to achieve any goal. Want a seamless attack chain? Pick up one more attack. Haste is optional. Want more defense? Combat jump, hover, maneuvers, weave, etc.
Want to rest less often? Already got end reduction in all attacks and toggles? Already hitting 85% or more? Errr. Stamina.
You know, and I know, and most forumites know there are also: the new temp power, inspirations, the base enhancement station, and a dayjob, plus IO set bonuses and accolades. Are any of those convenient? Are any of those available to the skill level and knowledge level of a new player or low-skill player?
the cost for the temp power on the market is often over 1 million, it requires rare salvage often selling up to 4 million unless you're smart enough to buy the low-level version. Can a newb really use this as a solution?
This is a have and have-not problem. If you are good enough it is a non-issue. If you are not good enough, it is a big issue. Looking at the numbers in each group and who the people are in each group, I come down on the side of make a change please.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I did say "basically can't" rather than "can't". Anything CAN solo, it's a matter of how well.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
"decently" "can't"
First word subjective. Second based on subjective opinion. I already stated that I was able to solo an FF/Ene Def from 1 to 12 at what I considered a "decent" pace. I found it "decent" in comparison to the other sucktacular for soloing archetypes/powersets. Anything in this game CAN solo at the base difficulty without vet powers. I have incontrovertibly proven this to be a factual statement. If people don't find a given combination from a given archetype "fun" to solo, perhaps they should choose an archetype\combo more suited to soloing. There is a reason that I do not play defenders, or tanks or stalkers or controllers. I do not find them "fun." However, I also do not seek massive game-wide changes based on my opinion of those archetypes. Such an action would be an ignorant waste of time for everyone. |
FF/nrg is way easier than FF/rad, you have bigger burst attacks (admittedly on slower recharge) that actually have some mitigation through knockdown, and your AoE kills up front and does KB rather than being DoT that does -def. Remember defender tier 1s and 2s weren't normalised like the blaster ones were.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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And rad gets a tier1 attack with a recharge so low that you can slap on auto and have it fire off between every other attack. The -def means that you're going to hit far more often than the /ene.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
I did say "basically can't" rather than "can't". Anything CAN solo, it's a matter of how well.
FF/nrg is way easier than FF/rad, you have bigger burst attacks (admittedly on slower recharge) that actually have some mitigation through knockdown, and your AoE kills up front and does KB rather than being DoT that does -def. Remember defender tier 1s and 2s weren't normalised like the blaster ones were. |
Ene's KB mitigation is there, but it's certainly not something that can be counted on. You know /rad's -def is going to work with every successful hit.
Your argument has no rational basis to it. You think rad < ene but can't back it up with facts. You think defenders "basically" can't solo "decently" when you've been proven wrong.
Got anything else? Or do I need to go crank up an FF/Rad def, not take any vet powers and solo it to 12 to prove my point... again.
EDIT: I'm curious how long folks think it should take me to solo a def from 1-12.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Oh, there's definite qualitative differences between them. That doesn't invalidate the comparison, though, it simply makes clear that the comparison only applies to a point. I happen to think that the discussion at hand falls within that range of applicability.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
You can look at the statements made with builds though. With hasten it is for added benefit. For stamina, it is full of "I can't stand the low levels" "pre-stamina this character sucked", etc. Ever see a post like that about haste? stamina is clearly perceived to be removing a barrier to fun. haste is not described in that way. I think, and I may be wrong but I'm fairly confident, that this is a significant qualitative difference between the two.
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That low-level, pre-Stamina (and other, similar tools), solo play is limited by endurance is inarguable. What's arguable is whether that pre-Stamina play is intolerable. I think it's also fair to include in that discussion the question of how long one has to tolerate that condition, assuming one considers it intolerable. I find it quite easy to get to the 20s, even when doing something like soloing a Defender.
The key here is that I didn't try to solo any Defenders that would clearly be poor at soloing. When you have a wrench, just because you can use it to drive nails doesn't mean it's very good at it. Not all powersets are designed with rapid soloing in mind*, and it's not reasonable to ask that they solo as well as ATs that are specifically designed around rapid foe defeats.
* It seems likely that some "team AT" powersets are better at soloing than others by accident, but let's just accept that they exist and leave the question of why to another thread.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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What do you mean if thats why they are dying alot.? Of course thats why they are dying. Thats why everyone dies. You can't die without running out of HP.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
SinisterDirge, I think endurance should be restricting characters, just not as much as it does. I've said it several times in this thread, even. I'd also agree that if characters are dying too much, then they may need more health or defense to compensate if that's why they're dying a lot. Also, while a significant portion have said things are fine, I'm also seeing a significant portion saying there may be a problem.
I wouldn't want foes to lay down, I want to be able to fight them and not have to stop midway because I'm out of endurance. I shouldn't be more of a threat to myself than my foes are. That is, my foes should defeat me because they DEFEAT me, not because I have to essentially stop fighting. |
Here is another tip for when you find yourself running out of end mid fight. Fight slower. Instead of blowing your load in the first 10 seconds of the fight, wait a second before you hit the next power. That also gives your other powers more time to recharge. Now, you wont have to stop mid-fight to recover end, and you wont need to stop to wait for any powers to rechage. No stopping required. Varry Nice!
Dechs, you're being facetious at my expense despite the fact that this subject been brought up many times by many others. I have not made any ridiculous claim that I want endurance removed or the power to do anything, and defeat any foe. That straw man won't burn, I'm afraid. All I've said is that endurance costs are excessive and need a recalibration.
BillZ, I don't care if I have your respect or tolerance if you refuse to have an open mind, and if you insist on denigrating me at every opportunity. You call me a liar and an idiot and expect me to treat your comments with any regard? The fact is, I do. I consider EVERYONE'S comments (that relate to the topic). It's too bad having respect and an open mind is so difficult for some people.
That said, you don't seem to disagree with my point, that endurance could use an recalibration, though you seem to be restricting it more to lower levels. Also, that you don't play nearly half the ATs because they're not fun suggests to me that there's a problem. Of course, you don't mention whether that's because of endurance issues.
Uberguy, that I've made SOME concept builds doesn't mean that's ALL I've made. I have many characters who are pretty vanilla, as far as builds go. The problem I have isn't that you can't compensate for the endurance issue, it's that doing so undercuts the entertainment value of the game too much. I mean, what's more fun, blasting the bad guys or NOT blasting the bad guys because you don't have enough endurance?
I have to bring up the personal slights a lot because so many people use them as their main method of "discussion." I mean, I've been called a liar and an idiot in this thread alone. I hate to have to do it, but I find it very difficult to let people insult me without comment.
I agree, the question of whether something should be done is really part of why I started this thread. It seems to me if people are dissatisfied with an aspect of the game, that it's diminishing their enjoyment of the game, then something should be done. As I say, I'm trying to see if that's the case. Obviously I think so. I'm just looking to see how many agree and how many disagree.
This comment strikes me:
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Basically it looks like you're agreeing with me, it's just the particulars of the recalibration that haven't been discussed (and I wasn't going to get into here). Am I reading you correctly?| Most everyone likes to be able to fight longer and faster, so most people will consider more endurance to be better, but that fact alone doesn't make clear what level of endurance is objectively inadequate. |
SinisterDirge, part of my concern is that new people coming into the game, finding those first 10 levels or so unentertaining, may just leave. The streets are deserted enough already, I think we need to consider that we want more new players enjoying the game sooner, and I see improving endurance woes as being very helpful in this regard.
ShoeTattoo seems to agree.
Mind Over Matter, I agree, the 0 Endurance Brawl is useful, but consider WHY. Is it because it has great damage or because it's the often the only power you can use because you're out of endurance (or is there another reason)?
Rush Bolt, I definitely agree, Palominos ARE pretty.
Ocularis, it is a problem because it's diminishing the enjoyment of the game. As I said, that's my opinion, but obviously, I'm not alone. That it's "working as intended" suggets to me that the intent is flawed.
Nethergoat, if you think it's fun then that's great. As I say, I'm looking for opinions on both sides. My "valid" argument is in the number of people who find this mechanic "unfun."
BillZ, I have to take issue with this comment:
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| You think defenders "basically" can't solo "decently" when you've been proven wrong. |
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What I mean is, if they're dying more than others are or an inappropriate amount. If Scrappers had 10% of the health of everyone else, they'd die a lot more, and that would be why. Further, if EVERYONE had 10% of the health they have now, they'd ALL be dying a lot because they lack the health (or defenses) to withstand the enemy attacks.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
What do you mean if thats why they are dying alot.? Of course thats why they are dying. Thats why everyone dies. You can't die without running out of HP.
Here is another tip for when you find yourself running out of end mid fight. Fight slower. Instead of blowing your load in the first 10 seconds of the fight, wait a second before you hit the next power. That also gives your other powers more time to recharge. Now, you wont have to stop mid-fight to recover end, and you wont need to stop to wait for any powers to rechage. No stopping required. Varry Nice! |
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True enough about the ridiculous slippery slope part of my post, but I see you don't address my first bit.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Dechs, you're being facetious at my expense despite the fact that this subject been brought up many times by many others.
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If I can run a Dark Armor tank with tough and weave, all toggles running, all the time, sucking down Dark Regeneration's huge endurance cost, without an endurance recovery power to help me, before I even put IOs in the thing, then damn it, anything can work.
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Well again I'm on the fence about this issue. However I'm not going to lie. I have a character at level 40 or so with endurance usage that's irritating enough to make him unejoyable for me to mess with. Some might see that as a "challenge" but to me its just annoying. And that's just the way I look at it: the endurance issue isn't so much a game goal or challange as it a luck of the draw on how you combine powersets. Sometimes two sets that seem like they'd work ok together turn out to combine poorly because the endurance bar doesn't like that combo. Other times you get a character that can perform endlessly without ever needing to look at the bar. The fact that the former character and the latter both perform about the same, barring the disappearing blue bar part, is IMO more irritating than it is a call to action.
In this case, the character is a Fire/Sonic Controller. I do unmothball him on rare ocassions, but then remember that my other trollers do better jobs with less annoyance and back into the bin he goes. Managing endurance / spell points / MP may be a valid challenge in a game with fixed classes, but in a game that encourages you to mix powersets it's more of a "don't play this" flag.
Again, not that I think endurance should be eliminated completely. But I think in COH2 they should think very deeplly about endurance is really intended to do, and whether every single ability really needs an attached cost.
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From what I see here on the boards, new people comming to the game dont ask about endurence, or how to solve those woes. They ask why are the servers dead?, Why is there no one on the streets? What is the leetest toon I can build. Come to think of it, I dont think I've ever seen an introductory post complaining about end problems.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
SinisterDirge, part of my concern is that new people coming into the game, finding those first 10 levels or so unentertaining, may just leave. The streets are deserted enough already, I think we need to consider that we want more new players enjoying the game sooner, and I see improving endurance woes as being very helpful in this regard.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Mind Over Matter, I agree, the 0 Endurance Brawl is useful, but consider WHY. Is it because it has great damage or because it's the often the only power you can use because you're out of endurance (or is there another reason)?
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You're right, I didn't address it directly. The point is not that it can be done, but whether it's fun.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
True enough about the ridiculous slippery slope part of my post, but I see you don't address my first bit.
If I can run a Dark Armor tank with tough and weave, all toggles running, all the time, sucking down Dark Regeneration's huge endurance cost, without an endurance recovery power to help me, before I even put IOs in the thing, then damn it, anything can work. Learn to build. Learn to play. |
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That's not the problem, though. What a lot of people are saying here is that you can build in a way that let's you blast the bad guy, and STILL not have endurance problems. You CAN compensate for the endurance issue, especially with IO sets now, because they generally end up giving you more endurance reduction than you would normally put in with SOs. However, even if you are using SOs, and you have a problem with running out of Endurance, there are ways to build around that, such as slotting 2 EndRed in every attack power, and such. Why slotting like that would ruin your game, I don't really know.| Uberguy, that I've made SOME concept builds doesn't mean that's ALL I've made. I have many characters who are pretty vanilla, as far as builds go. The problem I have isn't that you can't compensate for the endurance issue, it's that doing so undercuts the entertainment value of the game too much. I mean, what's more fun, blasting the bad guys or NOT blasting the bad guys because you don't have enough endurance? |
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| I agree, the question of whether something should be done is really part of why I started this thread. It seems to me if people are dissatisfied with an aspect of the game, that it's diminishing their enjoyment of the game, then something should be done. As I say, I'm trying to see if that's the case. Obviously I think so. I'm just looking to see how many agree and how many disagree. |
Obviously, that is not what you are asking for, and it is the extreme of what would be done. However, it is trying to show what happens when you make a facet of the game trivial. And I do believe that that is the only point at which you'd think that Endurance would be fine.
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| Basically it looks like you're agreeing with me, it's just the particulars of the recalibration that haven't been discussed (and I wasn't going to get into here). Am I reading you correctly? |
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| Most everyone likes to be able to fight longer and faster, so most people will consider more endurance to be better, but that fact alone doesn't make clear what level of endurance is objectively inadequate. |
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| SinisterDirge, part of my concern is that new people coming into the game, finding those first 10 levels or so unentertaining, may just leave. The streets are deserted enough already, I think we need to consider that we want more new players enjoying the game sooner, and I see improving endurance woes as being very helpful in this regard. |
People don't generally join an MMO thinking that it's going to be ridiculously easy. If they do, that's pretty dumb. If you want a game where it's just an I Win game right at the very beginning, there are plenty of free games online that will allow you to do that. Most understand that there will be aspects of the game that they will need to learn.
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| Ocularis, it is a problem because it's diminishing the enjoyment of the game. As I said, that's my opinion, but obviously, I'm not alone. That it's "working as intended" suggets to me that the intent is flawed. |
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| Because no one has "proven" anything here. It's all opinion, mine, his, yours, all of it. The question isn't whether you CAN get a character to any particular level, but whether it's fun doing so (and not JUST for you - I'm trying to think of everyone here...). |
If, after all of those choices, none seem to work for you and allow you to have fun, well then this game might not be for you. But that doesn't mean that the game is inherently broken.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Seriously, that's what you took from that? His point was that, if Endurance is a problem for you, that you can build in a way where it becomes inconsequential. If you are unwilling to do that, then claim that it's not fun for you BECAUSE of the endurance problems, then it is not the game's fault.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
You're right, I didn't address it directly. The point is not that it can be done, but whether it's fun.
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Seriously, what are you running that has such great endurance problems that it's so unfun for you?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'm in the exact same boat, but I find that being up-front about it works. I tell teams I'm on that spousal aggro and/or child spew/breakage/ambulance is always a minor possibility, and if I happen to go AFK I'll either be back in a few minutes or I'll post a brief goodbye and bail, depending upon the circumstances. Most teams are cool with that, and if they aren't I can always go back to soloing. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Soloability is a big draw for me in this game. I dont like to burdan a team I am on with constant afk's because my son has decided to feed the pet fish to the toaster/etc. Appeasing my wife is another one. If I can't drop the game in an instant without letting the team down, then I can't team. Beside's it is unfair to the team.
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Now doing a TF is another thing - I won't sign up for that unless it's late enough that the kids and wife are all asleep and I can reasonably expect to finish and still get up for work the next day. Which explains why I've managed all of three TFs in 3 1/2 years.
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An interesting point here. I think it's a question of where to draw the line. At what point does it become trivial and at what point is it an obstruction. I'd hope there's a middle ground.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
That's not the problem, though. What a lot of people are saying here is that you can build in a way that let's you blast the bad guy, and STILL not have endurance problems. You CAN compensate for the endurance issue, especially with IO sets now, because they generally end up giving you more endurance reduction than you would normally put in with SOs. However, even if you are using SOs, and you have a problem with running out of Endurance, there are ways to build around that, such as slotting 2 EndRed in every attack power, and such. Why slotting like that would ruin your game, I don't really know.
Okay, let's take a look at this. If the Devs tomorrow removed Endurance and endurance costs from the game, do you think that people would have more or less fun? Immediately, they might have more fun, since they get to use powers willy-nilly for once. Over the long-term, however, they'd lose interest, as there's no need to do anything but click whatever power is recharged. There's no need to strategize which attack to use in a particular situation. Whichever one is up is what gets used. So, over the long term, people get more bored with a game that just became "hit the buttons as fast as you can." Obviously, that is not what you are asking for, and it is the extreme of what would be done. However, it is trying to show what happens when you make a facet of the game trivial. And I do believe that that is the only point at which you'd think that Endurance would be fine. |
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| What he was saying is that there's no way to tell what change you need to make to endurance based on what a single person wants. What you and I would think of as an effective change to endurance is likely quite different. And there's no way to tell, just from somebody saying that more endurance is needed, what level of endurance change is being called for. |
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This game is already trivially easy at the lower levels. The first 10 levels can be gotten how fast? An hour? Add to that the fact that it's actually easier to hit stuff at the lower levels than it is in the later game, thanks to beginner's luck. (and really, let's not take the beginning zone populations into account here, since most people only use those zones to chat and from levels 1-5, which doesn't take that long to get anyways) Without Vet attacks, it's actually pretty hard to run out of endurance in the really low levels, since you don't have enough attacks recharging fast enough to drain your endurance. For instance, take that FF/Rad being touted about in other posts. Put the tier 1 attack on auto, and run up to any enemy your level. You will NEVER run out endurance before the enemy is dead. Even throwing the tier 2 attack in there, you will likely put an enemy down before you run out of juice, unless you're fighting something well above your level. People don't generally join an MMO thinking that it's going to be ridiculously easy. If they do, that's pretty dumb. If you want a game where it's just an I Win game right at the very beginning, there are plenty of free games online that will allow you to do that. Most understand that there will be aspects of the game that they will need to learn. |
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| If 10% of the game thinks that it is flawed, and 90% think that it's fine, does that indicate that it is flawed, or not? |
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No two people are going to have the same definition of fun. It just can't be done. As such, it's almost impossible to create a game where everyone can do everything, on every different character type, and have fun doing it. That's why there are choices in this game. If you don't think that a Defender can solo well enough, well then don't play one solo. But, they can solo effectively. I know, I've done it. Was it my favorite character? No. Did I have fun doing it? Yes. Still do, when I get on that character. So, how do you compare my fun to yours? You really can't. So, the Devs just need to create a spectrum of options so that anyone can find something that they like to play. And I think that they've done that. If, after all of those choices, none seem to work for you and allow you to have fun, well then this game might not be for you. But that doesn't mean that the game is inherently broken. |
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Yes, you can make endurance issues inconsequential, but you sacrifice your ability to hit and damage your foes in the process, which only exacerbates the endurance problems again. As I say, I don't want to fight my powers and struggle to use them, I want to fight the enemy and struggle against THEIR powers.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Seriously, that's what you took from that? His point was that, if Endurance is a problem for you, that you can build in a way where it becomes inconsequential. If you are unwilling to do that, then claim that it's not fun for you BECAUSE of the endurance problems, then it is not the game's fault.
Seriously, what are you running that has such great endurance problems that it's so unfun for you? |
This effect is very pronounced in the same levels about which we are complaining about endurance.
Is that a problem? After all, I don't find waiting on powers to recharge to be especially entertaining. I don't consider it a problem. I consider it a goal. The benefit of getting to be "high level" (for some threshold of what that means which varies by player) is that your character improves. Getting rid of attack chain gaps and (more) limited endurance is one of those improvements I look forward to.
In any case, the argument I was making wasn't predicated on the strength of the analogy.
Blue
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