The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Of course, no one has 10% endurance. Everyone starts with 100% What you do with it, and how you spend it are up to you. Don't spend it all in one place. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
What I mean is, if they're dying more than others are or an inappropriate amount. If Scrappers had 10% of the health of everyone else, they'd die a lot more, and that would be why. Further, if EVERYONE had 10% of the health they have now, they'd ALL be dying a lot because they lack the health (or defenses) to withstand the enemy attacks.
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I would love to hear though, what would you recommend doing to re-balance everything if your end reduction hopes make it into the game. What are you willing to give up, to make it worth it to you. Now try to convince everyone else to give it up as well.
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yes it does.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
True, you're not going to please everyone, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. |
well, unless you really like pointlessly wasting a lot of time and energy that would be better invested elsewhere.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You sacrifice nothing. You have a full attack chain, with enough accuracy to only miss from bad luck, and recharges in half the time. Plus costing much less endurence. How is that a sacrifice?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Yes, you can make endurance issues inconsequential, but you sacrifice your ability to hit and damage your foes in the process, which only exacerbates the endurance problems again. As I say, I don't want to fight my powers and struggle to use them, I want to fight the enemy and struggle against THEIR powers.
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I've said it once, and I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with how the END use in this game is handled.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, I've been away for a while, and I've been trying a number of other games. Today, I came back for a bit to see if I wanted to buy Gong Rogue, something I'd been looking forward to. It revealed something to me that I've said before many times.
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use. Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels). As a rule, it's more fun to be using your powers and fighting the enemy than it is to be standing around, often as a punching bag for the NPCs because you lack the energy to fight back. In no other game is this problem so pronounced. Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here. I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun. (All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.) |
If you want a game where you you can just go attack non stop, then maybe a MMO isn't your type of game.
Every MMO I've played has some sort of END use style mechanic in play. I've played CO, WoW, FFXI and CoH.
You want to attack non-stop and never rest, then work on your build, take stamina. CoH is no different than any other MMO. People want to keep attacking non-stop. This isn't a CoH exclusive gripe.
And for those who want more realism in the game, it's even more annoying to see this complaint coming from them (not saying you the OP have this complaint just making a point).
"I want realism in the game! And I want more ENDUSE!"
Then grab Stamina.
"I don't want to grab Stamina! I'm tired of taking Fitness on every toon!"
Then from a realistic point of view, your toon isn't fit, and is thusly sucking wind.
"Nu uh...they have such and such power in use"
Oh well then, build better to show it that way. Right now, your robot is low on energy or you mutant concept really just isn't meshing with in game mechanics.
...and tedious? This MMO is really no different than any other MMO i've played in terms of repetitiveness. The question becomes, do you have fun playing it. If you're not. Then take a break from it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The Devs can. Take number of characters over 20 with Stamina. Divide by total number of characters over 20. If result >0.5, then END cost too high.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
What case is that? The case of "I don't want to worry about END so I shouldn't have to"?
Can you show, numerically, empirically and/or objectively, that END costs are too high? |
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Hopefully obviously, I don't take any exception to exploring that question. Something I do have some trouble with is the implication that because someone has a problem (or considers something a problem), it must be a systemic problem. Now, reading your follow on posts, you don't seem to be trying to suggest this so strongly. Your original post, though, read to me pretty clearly as an assertion that this definitely was a problem that needed address.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I agree, the question of whether something should be done is really part of why I started this thread. It seems to me if people are dissatisfied with an aspect of the game, that it's diminishing their enjoyment of the game, then something should be done. As I say, I'm trying to see if that's the case. Obviously I think so. I'm just looking to see how many agree and how many disagree.
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I do think there can be something to the notion that, if a lot of people dislike something it might be worth changing. That said, I want to remind folks though that argumentum ad populum is considered a logical fallacy. "If many believe so, it is so" is not actually a valid argument. It might be compelling on the basis that we're talking about an entertainment channel.
If a sufficient number of people dislike something in it, it might be detrimental to the success of that channel.
How likely that is in this case seems to depend on a large number of factors. How many ways out of the unpleasant situation are there? How long does one have to wait to attain those ways out? Is the situation so disliked that the availability of "ways out" isn't acceptable unless the "ways out" are offered immediately? How many people fall into that category?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If you stick with the "game is balanced around SOs" and we have 6 slots then a "sacrifice" is made somewhere during slotting.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
You sacrifice nothing. You have a full attack chain, with enough accuracy to only miss from bad luck, and recharges in half the time. Plus costing much less endurence. How is that a sacrifice?
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If standard slotting is 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam and I replace something with another end-red, I "sacrifice" one of either acc, rec-red or dam.
Course, this means absolutely nothing in the early game because we don't get SOs there. It means nothing in general because the term "standard slotting" means nothing. My brutes don't slot very little damage because I'm more concerned with end and recharge. I let fury be my damage buff.
Then again, I know how to build characters for soloing because I solo 95% of the time. I don't suffer from the OP's misconceptions about what might be because I understand the way that things are.
I understand elementary concepts like archetype design.
Be well, people of CoH.
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As I've already explained, this is not a proof of that assertion. All it clearly shows is that more endurance is near universally considered better, not that pre-Stamina levels are considered inadequate.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The Devs can. Take number of characters over 20 with Stamina. Divide by total number of characters over 20. If result >0.5, then END cost too high.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I suppose next you'll say since Hasten is so popular that Recharge times are too high too.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The Devs can. Take number of characters over 20 with Stamina. Divide by total number of characters over 20. If result >0.5, then END cost too high.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Wow, that's dumb.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The Devs can. Take number of characters over 20 with Stamina. Divide by total number of characters over 20. If result >0.5, then END cost too high.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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What you are asking for is a slight reduction is endurance consumption yes? And this would have to be across all levels to reduce the perceived notion that stamina is required?|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Y
The solo-team thing is a very good point. Thank you! However on the builds, I posit that endurance management is different than a tankermind needing presence. Again it's not just specific builds or characters with specific purposes. It is all builds across all ATs across nearly all powersets. That is a qualitative difference from "tankerminds". Also, the build issue, I believe is a class issue. Not meaning AT, but as in class-warfare. Have's and Have-Not's. I believe (from observation I will grant you) that the skilled players have no trouble with it but the new players and the low-skill and the middle-skill have too much trouble with it. Too much defined as it is the clearest and most common limit on the fun-factor of this game. Both teamed and solo. At least in a team the rest can keep going while one rests. But when I'm in a pug, and I see one guy stopping every second spawn, I know he's not having as much fun as the rest of us. Watching everyone else kick *** when you're gasping for breath makes you delete your character. Do it too many times and you delete the game. At low skill levels, this is too easy and too common. I do agree that it is not an issue at all for skilled builders. I do still believe it is a problem for the game community on the whole. As for your other claims, I do not support infinite endurance and never asked for it. |
How slight?
Slight enough that if I choose to take stamina endurance ceases to be any sort of concern outside of t9 crashes? Cause even a 20% reduction in endurance costs across the board would pretty much achieve that for the majority of toons on SO's.
But lets pretend we arbitrarily pick a new paradigm for endurance consumption rate. What's to stop me from building a fire/sonic controller and then complaining that I still eat through too much endurance? That is a legitimate complaint isn't it?
The only way it would be fair is to continue reducing it until no one "frequently has to stop". If you do that for the most endurance consumptive combo's you have given infinite endurance to almost everyone else. All they would have to do is pick up stamina and their blue bar will cease to be a concern. Which right now is reserved for a select number of special combo's.
Conversely, what sort of assurance do we have that even with lower end costs people won't just start slotting for more recharge and skimp on endurance reduction slotting and wind up in practically the same situation?
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No, you don't. You can sacrifice nothing, and still be endurance efficient. Especially with IOs. Unless you're trying to fight +3s, you can deal with just one Acc in your attacks, and hit fine. Then, throw in 3 Damage enhancements. That leaves you with two slots in a 6-slotted power. You can use both of those for EndRed if you want. You'll be capped or near-capped to ToHit, ED capped for damage, and still have good EndRed. How does that sacrifice anything?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Yes, you can make endurance issues inconsequential, but you sacrifice your ability to hit and damage your foes in the process, which only exacerbates the endurance problems again. As I say, I don't want to fight my powers and struggle to use them, I want to fight the enemy and struggle against THEIR powers.
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With IOs, it becomes even easier, since you tend to get good Acc, EndRed, and RecEd while slotting for damage.
So again, what build are you using where this becomes a problem?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Agreed with Billz here.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
For the record, due to the mistake of posting in this thread in the first place, I'm viewing your posts to properly followup and carry through with my mistake.
Team based archetypes aren't supposed to be "fun" to solo. Thinking otherwise is irrational. I don't like soloing defenders because they aren't designed to solo. I don't like tanks for the same reason. I don't like controllers for the same reason. I don't like stalkers because I don't like Hide. Lies. I have *proven* that a non-solo based archetype with an obviously pathetic for soloing powerset combination can solo without issue. Is it slow? Yes. By design. Is it "fun" for me? Hell no. Now listen carefully to this next part because your complete refusal to accept it as fact is the reason I ignore you in the first place: Team based ATs are team based meaning they don't solo as quickly as the ATs that are designed to solo because they are given tools that are more beneficial to teams. Tools that soloist ATs lack. Yea, I know... frelling news flash for everyone. |
There's a reason I get torn between my solo oriented toons and my team oriented toons.
I can solo my team oriented toons. In fact, I've soloed 0/0 content on different versions of Defenders/Trollers with no enhancements slotted. So I know they can solo. And with slotting, I can solo, and it still doesn't seem as fast as my more solo friendly ATs.
This is one of the reasons I've had a hard time with my main (and namesake) when it comes with concepts. Team friendly ATs you can build to make extremely tough and kick some serious butt, but I never find them to be as tough as my Scrapper.
But no matter how tough I build the more team oriented ATs, they never seem to compare to how tough I can build a scrapper. However, when I play a scrapper on teams, I can't help but think I'd add so much more to the team as say a RAD/DP Defender with the debuffs, at the cost of being a bit more squishy feeling (some of this is due to a lack of mez protection).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Until they can consistently do it faster than a blaster people will probably complain.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
EDIT: I'm curious how long folks think it should take me to solo a def from 1-12.
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No the point is try defining fun for me. Just because you don't think it is fun doesn't mean I don't find it fun. People find it fun to find ways around limitations such as end use. Just saying something is not fun does not mean much, since different people will have different types of fun. The devs need to find a balance for everyone. Not just you, and not just me. Which I think the devs did a good job, this is one of the fastest paced games with very little down time. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
You're right, I didn't address it directly. The point is not that it can be done, but whether it's fun.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The Devs can. Take number of characters over 20 with Stamina. Divide by total number of characters over 20. If result >0.5, then END cost too high.
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Dirges
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I think this is why we see all the complaints.|
Originally Posted by Dirges
No this won't work. Some people, myself included, will take stamina no matter what. I have characters that have +end powers and I still keep stamina. I like to have it those times when things do not go my way, I don't need it, but it suits my style.
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Truth is, less down time fits most people's style, but some don't want to do what it takes for less downtime, they just want it handed to them.
Pick powers, press buttons, and not worry about anything.
Truthfully, if the game was like that, people would likely get up and leave quicker.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Really? You mean I haven't played Doom for the last 5 years? Huh. Imagine that.
| Truthfully, if the game was like that, people would likely get up and leave quicker. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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And yet, there are still players playing Doom. And Quake 1. It's very hard to truly stamp out an online community.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Really? You mean I haven't played Doom for the last 5 years? Huh. Imagine that.
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I struggled through this thread and while I'll reframe from commenting on the topic I will leave this thread with this quote:|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
True, you're not going to please everyone, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. |
I can't give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time.
Herbert Bayard Swope (1882 - 1958)
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This statement baffles me. Why would ANYONE design a game where ANYTHING in it is not supposed to be fun? Another thought, when I can make a solo character with any power sets, THEN they can make playing the existing "team" ATs no fun to solo.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Team based archetypes aren't supposed to be "fun" to solo.
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| Lies. I have *proven* that a non-solo based archetype with an obviously pathetic for soloing powerset combination can solo without issue. Is it slow? Yes. By design. Is it "fun" for me? Hell no. |
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Now listen carefully to this next part because your complete refusal to accept it as fact is the reason I ignore you in the first place: Team based ATs are team based meaning they don't solo as quickly as the ATs that are designed to solo because they are given tools that are more beneficial to teams. Tools that soloist ATs lack. Yea, I know... frelling news flash for everyone. |
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I'm just illustrating a point, the numbers here are meaningless. I'm saying if someone is suffering a disadavantage relative to others or to the NPCs, then there may be a problem that needs examining.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Of course, no one has 10% endurance. Everyone starts with 100% What you do with it, and how you spend it are up to you. Don't spend it all in one place.
I would love to hear though, what would you recommend doing to re-balance everything if your end reduction hopes make it into the game. What are you willing to give up, to make it worth it to you. Now try to convince everyone else to give it up as well. |
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This is why we kinda don't respect your opinion, Ultimo.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This statement baffles me. Why would ANYONE design a game where ANYTHING in it is not supposed to be fun?
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Every game has something in it that's not fun and is supposed to be not fun. The very first thing in question is called losing.
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Erm... outside of a few outliers (Superior Invisibility comes to mind), toggles have incredibly low EPS compared to click powers. In general, it's not your toggles that are causing your endurance loss, you just notice your endurance loss when it shuts off your toggles.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The cost of running toggles seems to have been calibrated to hit the endurance bar, and the chief player response to that is simply to build characters so that endurance is ignorable.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Guild Wars is the only game which does it better, and then as a tradeoff you can only take 8 spells / abilities out into the world with you, but atleast out of a fight you regenerated very well.
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- Many "signet" skills have a condition attached to them, such as only recharging after you to gain a Morale Boost, setting yourself on fire or causing yourself to bleed after the signet's primary effect, killing yourself when the target dies, disabling some of your skills, and more. The signets without conditions generally have long recharge or long (interruptable) cast time.
- Some skills have little actual effect, but you want to have them equipped anyway. For example, "Charm Animal" will turn target animal into your pet, but you can only have 1 pet, and in order to have your pet follow you, you need either "Charm Animal" or "Comfort Animal" equipped.
But I gotta say, running around with a Dire Flamingo for a pet is hilarious
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I would want to know if that is what the Devs think.
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Originally Posted by Dirges
Some people, myself included, will take stamina no matter what. I have characters that have +end powers and I still keep stamina.
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Dark Consumption + Quick Recovery + Stamina + Physical Perfection.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I'm just illustrating a point, the numbers here are meaningless. I'm saying if someone is suffering a disadavantage relative to others or to the NPCs, then there may be a problem that needs examining.
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How about you make a mmo. Call it Vanilla Hero. Every person that logs on is allowed to create as many characters as they want, you can dress them up however you want, but everyones powers, and effects are all the same. No single toon is better in any situation than any other. The villians are defeated in the exact same way, every time, because they also, are exactly the same, only dressed different. Everyone has the same aoe's, there are no vet powers, because thats not fair to the new people who just started, and you dont want to make them feel uncomfortable. You also want people to stay, so you need to give them something.... maybe more costume options?
Sound good? Pretty sure I would want to roll toon after toon in your game...
Have you played any real life sports? Do you ***** about who you play checkers with, and refuse to play them again, because they beat you, and that is not fun?
Heres a life lesson for you bub. The best way to learn, and get better at something, is to play with/against players that are better than you. If you dont challenge yourself at all, you stagnate. Life does not come to you on a silver plate, and yet, alot of people still manage to have fun.
Endurance is fine as is. The low level game is fine as is. Show me one complaint from a first timer on the boards ******** about end.
Post up your build, and I will gladly roll that toon, and play it without standing in the middle of a mob huffing and puffing. You are not posting this crap for new people, you are asking for it for yourself.
For the record, due to the mistake of posting in this thread in the first place, I'm viewing your posts to properly followup and carry through with my mistake.
Now listen carefully to this next part because your complete refusal to accept it as fact is the reason I ignore you in the first place:
Team based ATs are team based meaning they don't solo as quickly as the ATs that are designed to solo because they are given tools that are more beneficial to teams. Tools that soloist ATs lack.
Yea, I know... frelling news flash for everyone.
Be well, people of CoH.