The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Well, I was thinking in an MMO since, and the closest game I could think of at the time was Diablo 2, and even then you need drink some potions.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Really? You mean I haven't played Doom for the last 5 years? Huh. Imagine that.
|
Been awhile since I played Doom. Wasn't a lack of ammo kinda the same thing as END though? Again been awhile, but I can swear weapons had ammo.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Honestly, I'm thinking in practical terms, getting 2 or 3 more powers activated before bottoming out assuming end-cheap powers, and 1 or 2 more on the end-hungry powers. It doesn't seem like a lot, but if you figure a bad build is standing around clicking a power and hearing the "dun" and seeing "too tired" flash over their head on every spawn, this might let them have it happen every second spawn. And for most people, the goal is to shift from instead of needing to rest, to be able to stand around for a few seconds before moving to the next spawn.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
What you are asking for is a slight reduction is endurance consumption yes? And this would have to be across all levels to reduce the perceived notion that stamina is required?
How slight? Slight enough that if I choose to take stamina endurance ceases to be any sort of concern outside of t9 crashes? Cause even a 20% reduction in endurance costs across the board would pretty much achieve that for the majority of toons on SO's. |
That's about the goal. And based on my own experiences with upgrading slotting, it really would be a big quality of fun shift.
20% is way way way too much. 10% is probably too much. I'll try to do numbers, but I suck so don't hold this to any kind of authority or accuracy. Totally pulled out of my rump here:
Thinking middle-of the road (in terms of endurance consumption) tier 1 - 3 attacks are burning 4 to 6 end, and you recover 1/sec base with those powers having 1 to 2.8 sec animation times with 4+ sec recharge. So you're spending in 2-3 attacks say 10 endurance, but you have at least 2 and probably 4 earned back. So numerically I think I'm saying a 3-7% shift.
That sounds about right.
But specifically not just a flat percentage adjustment to costs. Nutrino bolt you can already practically spam endlessly, that one doesn't need anything changed. And knocking 5-7% off of the heal in dark armor is too much. That's meant to be a big endurance hit.
An adjustment on the low-tier powers (say tier 1-4) would have much more impact than the full powersets and it would somewhat mitigate what you're talking about below with maxing recharge and a recursive problem.
Quote:
| But lets pretend we arbitrarily pick a new paradigm for endurance consumption rate. What's to stop me from building a fire/sonic controller and then complaining that I still eat through too much endurance? That is a legitimate complaint isn't it? |
Quote:
| The only way it would be fair is to continue reducing it until no one "frequently has to stop". If you do that for the most endurance consumptive combo's you have given infinite endurance to almost everyone else. All they would have to do is pick up stamina and their blue bar will cease to be a concern. Which right now is reserved for a select number of special combo's. |
There are differences between powers, there are differences between ATs. I'm not proposing those be shifted. I'm talking a small tweak in the amount of time it takes to bottom out on end on average.
Not infinite sustainability.
Quote:
| Conversely, what sort of assurance do we have that even with lower end costs people won't just start slotting for more recharge and skimp on endurance reduction slotting and wind up in practically the same situation? |
As an example, in your earlier post you mentioned that soft-capped defenses would give a more happy experience than increased endurance. My argument is that the people involved have never heard the term "soft cap" and if you told them about it they wouldn't understand how it works. AE babies and newbs are not going to break the recharge mechanic because they manage to squeeze out a couple more attacks. Now, I'm being hyperbolic here, there are definitely more people involved than just those groups. =)
A more relevant issue is what will it do to high-end builds. With that extra oomph, what can those like you, Umbral, Werner, Top_Doc etc pull off and is that going to be an issue?
From my perspective, I don't think so because there are few enough of you. But I do think it is a real question and why I don't take 90% of the people who ask about endurance modifications seriously when I look at what they are asking for.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
to all the people who say "Every build has Stamina, so Stamina is broken":
80% of Blasters that CAN have Build Up and Aim, maybe more, DO have Build Up and Aim. Do Build Up and Aim need to be removed? No?
Then clarify the difference. I think you're wrong about the original thesis [Stamina bad] as well, but I'm willing to discuss it. I am SURE you're wrong about the "popularity is a flaw" argument, and wish you to make a different argument, one that's less stupid.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
That's the obvious point a lot of the "build better" people are missing.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
See my notes about the class-specific nature of the problem. The people suffering from it don't have the skills to cause this follow on problem. If they did they could build themselves out of the problem in the first place.
|
If it was as easy and painless to manage the end problem in the game as they contend, people wouldn't have the problem and wouldn't be complaining about it. And despite all their trolling to the contrary, Ultimo_ isn't the only one who complains about end, especially in the early levels. The devs certainly don't need convincing, because they've been gradually trying to relieve the problem in various ways and from what I can see, continue to do so.
The claptrap coming from most of the people giving Ultimo_ grief is saying what amounts to "Poor people are poor because they want to be. Otherwise they'd be rich like me." It's nothing more than e-peen waggery from the usual wastes and Ultimo_ would do best to just turn his crap filter on.
.
I know that what I'm about to say will be called anecdotal, but so be it. To everyone insisting there is absolutely no problem at all, I request you sit back and think about the following. How often do you recall seeing people on these forums comment in passing on how they always PL to 20 or otherwise get there as fast as possible? How often do you know of people in game that do it? How often do you do it?
I know I see/hear about people blitzing to 20 A LOT. I admit that when I make a new character I am focused on getting to 20-22 as fast as I can. That simple perception is, to me, indicative that there is a problem of some kind with low level play. My personal opinion is that the Dev's have the high end balance of the game just right, but that the low end of the spectrum needs a slight tweak. To me personally, lowbie characters just seem a touch too weak. The exact reason why I feel this way varies from one archetype to the next, but the recurring theme is quite often endurance consumption. There's only so much you can do pre-20 to mitigate that.
As to how to fix it without making the low level game too easy? I'm honestly not sure. I like the idea of a zero recharge Rest that someone proposed early in the thread. That would make a world of difference I think.
Quote:
Many games have a passive fast out-of-combat recovery, which certainly helps with pacing.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here.
|
In other games that have a blue bar equivalent, the blue bar generally scales with level in a similar fashion to HP. And that's on top of any equipment bonuses, such as we get with enhancements. Sometimes, the cost of powers go up as well, but it usually works out that you can use lower tier abilities more and more often as you level despite that. To put it simply, in other games it generally takes more and more blue to defeat enemies as you gain levels, but you have more blue to work with; whereas in this game it takes more and more blue to defeat enemies as you level, but you generally have the same amount of blue to work with.
To make up for getting relatively weaker in this manner as you gain levels, this game gives far more equipment slots to a character than any other MMO I've played. Which largely seems to work out well, and thankfully the equipment isn't a visible blight on character models ultimately turning characters of similar class and level into veritable clone armies.
However, in this game I believe the damage scaling of individual ATs is gradually worked in over the first 20 levels. And I don't think endurance costs account for their lower damage. This would mean that as, say, Tankers and Defenders go from 1 to 20 they'll be using more and more endurance as compared to ATs with a higher damage scaling since they would have to use more attacks to defeat enemies while spending a comparable amount per attack as higher damage ATs. One might point out that they can attack with a bit more safety, however that's irrelevant since their defensive abilities come with their own endurance costs (and in many cases probably don't quite make up for the damage loss). And while it's true that the issue becomes less noticeable on teams, that doesn't make it any less of an issue.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Ultimo_: I'm not really with you or against you. My posts aren't really about--or aimed at--any individual. I have a fairly narrow focus.
I witnessed a fair number of hardcore gamers give up on COH entirely because of serial defeats in the older, harder Hollows and because of endurance problems with their pre-20 characters.
With that in mind, and given that I could (and still can) empathize with the annoyance of those I saw rage-quit over serial defeats and endurance problems, what I'd rather see happen is that the "pinched shoe" effect of endurance difficulties in lower levels be better alleviated, so that less novice and occasional players are driven away. Endurance can still act as a throttle on experience gain, on an overall basis (its a wee bit late in the development cycle to change that aspect of endurance now anyways), while reaching the goal of making earlier levels less of a test of patience for novices.
Quote:
Many. I've done it twice myself. Both of those characters have been deleted. Now I can't be bothered with it. I just run normally until I'm there.| I know that what I'm about to say will be called anecdotal, but so be it. To everyone insisting there is absolutely no problem at all, I request you sit back and think about the following. How often do you recall seeing people on these forums comment in passing on how they always PL to 20 or otherwise get there as fast as possible? How often do you know of people in game that do it? How often do you do it? |
Do people quit because of it? Yes. They also quit because of repetitive content, lack of population, hatred of developer X, lack of end-game content, borked PvP, game bugs, lack of money, etc, etc, etc.
Is the game too hard? Nope. Rocket surgery it isn't. Other opinions obviously differ. And when/if the devs dumb down the game enough for those people, I'll cancel my sub out of boredom.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Which is countered by the benefits those characters bring to teams. And around and around we go.
| However, in this game I believe the damage scaling of individual ATs is gradually worked in over the first 20 levels. And I don't think endurance costs account for their lower damage. This would mean that as, say, Tankers and Defenders go from 1 to 20 they'll be using more and more endurance as compared to ATs with a higher damage scaling since they would have to use more attacks to defeat enemies while spending a comparable amount per attack as higher damage ATs. One might point out that they can attack with a bit more safety, however that's irrelevant since their defensive abilities come with their own endurance costs (and in many cases probably don't quite make up for the damage loss). And while it's true that the issue becomes less noticeable on teams, that doesn't make it any less of an issue. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Well, since I'm ignoring Talen, I can't tell if he's being constructive or just attacking me as usual.
Actually, SinisterDirge, I'm all or equality. Personally, I like a level playing field. I'd LOVE it if everyone had access to everything because everything was the same. If this were so, then it would be skill and cunning that would win. However, I'm not suggesting anything so radical, though you seem to be implying I am. All I've said is endurance should be recalibrated. From the reaction, you'd think I was suggesting destroying everything.
I play Hockey. I'm a goalie. I have exactly the same equipment and team composition going for me that my opponent does. It's down to skill. I'm not required to give up my stick and pads after facing the first 10 shots, and the other team doesn't get to have 20 players on the ice. That's the kind of thing I see in CoH.
The checkers analogy is similar. Both players have the same pieces with the same abilities. It's down to skill and cunning.
I've said before, it's not about my personal builds (plural, since I'm not referring to just one character or AT). Endurance use is excessive FOR EVERYONE. My opinion, of course. It does seem to me, however, that if everything were as rosy and dandy as you are making out, there wouldn't be any threads like this, by me or the many others who have made the same observation.
Of course, the real danger is the silent many that just quit without telling us they found it not fun gasping for breath all the time. The game can't afford to lose any more players, especially new ones.
Bill, Bill, Bill.
I've never been hostile toward you, and Ive always tried to be respectful in my discussions, yet you insist on being hostile and insulting. I don't understand that, you seem to have the ability to reason.
1. APPARENTLY, you have think you have some mystical insight into my thoughts. I thought I was clear, I find it tedious constantly fighting the endurance costs on my characters. THAT is what I don't find fun. It has nothing to do with whether I "get my way."
2. This is all you needed to say. If you're fine with it, great. That's your choice. I'm not, and I wanted to see who agreed and disagreed.
3. I'm trying to get more playability out of ALL the classes. I suppose in that sense, the thread is related to my other threads on similar topics. Calling me a liar is just hostile. You're simply trying to provoke me. There's a name for that.
I find it sad that people would encourage other players to quit. From what I've seen, the game needs to hang on to its players. I've seen a grand total of 5 other characters in the last couple of weeks, on several servers. We can't afford to lose anyone else.
Gavin, I have avoided suggesting actual numbers since I haven't done any of the math involved, but I think I would start by equalizing things across the ATs. Attack powers in particular should be using an amount of endurance relative to their damage output. More damage=more endurance. That way, lower damage characters don't start with the dual disadvantage of less damage and less endurance (since they use more doing the same overall damage). After that, a global increase of some degree. I don't think it needs to be drastic, your numbers may be fine.
Bill, simply dismissing anyone that disagrees with you is insulting and very poor argument. You do nothing to strengthen your position by simply attacking the posters instead of the posts.
Quote:
That's fairly irrelevant to their increased attack costs even if one throws individual balance out the window, given that the team-beneficial abilities have their own costs (be it directly in endurance or, say, increased incoming damage).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Which is countered by the benefits those characters bring to teams.
|
Of course, it's moot given that the situation is unlikely to significantly change. Nor am I arguing for it to change here, I am merely pointing out plausible reasons for the endurance-based feelings of tedium. Thus there isn't really a "round and round" to be had here unless you're just looking to dance.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Honestly I know I've already said this but, NEW players should be encouraged to be playing on a team. Encouraged by existing players and by the game itself. On teams endurance issues are much less of a concern from lvl 1 all the way to 50. Run any sewers team from lvl 1 to 8, you won't see people needing to rest between every spawn. In fact you'll usually only rest a handful of times in that entire run. It only gets better from there if you team as well.
If NEW players are choosing to solo in an MMO right from the get go then imo they should be willing to accept that it will have certain disadvantages. Mainly, that you aren't on a team.
If we have an influx of new players choosing to solo rather than team I'd suggest that something is wrong with the game and it sure isn't endurance.
Quote:
This is what brings out the hostility. This is what brings out the dismissal of your opinions as irrelevant, foolish and a waste of our time.| I play Hockey. I'm a goalie. I have exactly the same equipment and team composition going for me that my opponent does. It's down to skill. I'm not required to give up my stick and pads after facing the first 10 shots, and the other team doesn't get to have 20 players on the ice. That's the kind of thing I see in CoH. |
This is what so many have tried fruitlessly to get you to accept because you lack the simple ability to comprehend it: The Rest Of Us Don't Want This Turned Into A First Person Shooter. If I want to play Chess, I'll play Chess. If I want to play something with mindless shooting I'll fire up Borderlands.
Some folks WANT to play support. Some folks WANT to play control.
Your implication that I'm trolling you is as pathetic as every implication of your innocence in spewing your "make me a tankmage" filth over the years you've been posting here.
BS like "I've seen a grand total of 5 other characters in the last couple of weeks, on several servers" does nothing but exacerbate the ever growing disgust I have for people like you. Perhaps you should get your camera view away from that brick wall. The hundred+ people I see logged into my badge channel whenever I log in laughs at and mocks you for that statement.
You want this game to be something it isn't. You want it to be something that I would not play. Your "surprise" at the constant annoyance your BS brings out in people is almost as annoying to me as the BS itself.
Quote:
| That's fairly irrelevant to their increased attack costs even if one throws individual balance out the window, given that the team-beneficial abilities have their own costs (be it directly in endurance or, say, increased incoming damage). |
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
The issue here is that endurance management pre-20 doesn't exist in a vacuum, and is actually inextricably intertwined with other limitations that exist in the pre-20 game. To name a few:|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I know that what I'm about to say will be called anecdotal, but so be it. To everyone insisting there is absolutely no problem at all, I request you sit back and think about the following. How often do you recall seeing people on these forums comment in passing on how they always PL to 20 or otherwise get there as fast as possible? How often do you know of people in game that do it? How often do you do it?
I know I see/hear about people blitzing to 20 A LOT. I admit that when I make a new character I am focused on getting to 20-22 as fast as I can. That simple perception is, to me, indicative that there is a problem of some kind with low level play. |
- Limits on available slots, because we only get 2 every 2 levels until the 30s.
- Limits on damage per endurance point (DPE) spent not just due to endurance slotting, but due to limited damage slotting induced by limited slots and weaker enhancements.
- Limits on accuracy, which incidentally affects DPE. (Now heavily mitigated by "Beginner's Luck" until level 12 or so. If you want to hold up something players griped about in the low levels, I think it would be missing.)
- Limits on number of total powers available, especially if you do also choose pool powers in addition to primary and secondary powers, including any prerequisites to open up pool powers you really want.
- Limits on available power recharge, due to lack of available slots and the need to slot accuracy, damage and probably end reduction.
- A lot of highly desirable "special" IOs don't open up until level 20 or 25.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I have no problem with their lower damage mods. That it's there to counter their benefits to a team is absolutely great. I'm not ignoring that fact, but (other than being the initial cause) it's rather irrelevant to the increased endurance cost per damage they suffer, which does little to counter their team benefits and more to inflict needless "tedium" on their solo game. You can ignore that fact all you wish, etc.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Team based ATs have lower damage mods to counter their ability to increase an entire team's efficiency. Ignore that fact all you wish, but all it means is that you ignore facts.
|
But I don't know how difficult it would be to adjust the costs (I suspect they would have to do so individually by power/AT, since it couldn't be a global modifier given that it should only affect damaging attacks), and to me it's a minor issue compared to things like the upcoming booster pack, Going Rogue, and even more power proliferation. Besides which, if they haven't done anything about it by now, I don't expect that they ever will.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I used the hockey analogy because I was asked if I play a sport.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
This is what brings out the hostility. This is what brings out the dismissal of your opinions as irrelevant, foolish and a waste of our time.
This is what so many have tried fruitlessly to get you to accept because you lack the simple ability to comprehend it: The Rest Of Us Don't Want This Turned Into A First Person Shooter. If I want to play Chess, I'll play Chess. If I want to play something with mindless shooting I'll fire up Borderlands. Some folks WANT to play support. Some folks WANT to play control. Your implication that I'm trolling you is as pathetic as every implication of your innocence in spewing your "make me a tankmage" filth over the years you've been posting here. BS like "I've seen a grand total of 5 other characters in the last couple of weeks, on several servers" does nothing but exacerbate the ever growing disgust I have for people like you. Perhaps you should get your camera view away from that brick wall. The hundred+ people I see logged into my badge channel whenever I log in laughs at and mocks you for that statement. You want this game to be something it isn't. You want it to be something that I would not play. Your "surprise" at the constant annoyance your BS brings out in people is almost as annoying to me as the BS itself. It's only irrelevant to the people that refuse to accept CHV archetype design for what it is. 8 defenders > 8 scrappers. Force multiplication > force addition. Team based ATs have lower damage mods to counter their ability to increase an entire team's efficiency. Ignore that fact all you wish, but all it means is that you ignore facts. |
Your attempt at putting words in my mouth fails. I never said I wanted a first person shooter. I said I wanted less onerous endurance management. That doesn't preclude anyone playing support or control. I've said NOTHING about being a Tankmage in this thread. You're still arguing something I talked about months ago, and even then I said I don't want a Tankmage. I have said NOTHING about ANY AT, Force Multiplication or any other pet argument you want to have.
I have seen 5 other players total in the last couple of weeks. 3 in Atlas, one in Steel, and one in King's Row. I specifically went around looking for people. My friends list, nearly 100 strong, was empty. No one was on. There was one additional person in the SG channel, but I have no idea where he was and he wasn't talking. I expect he as afk. That your experience is different doesn't change that this is what I saw, and that this has been spread over some time. That suggests a dwindling population. If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the game can survive on your friends list alone, that's your problem. For my part, I'd like to consider ways to help encourage people to play the game, and one of those might be an adjustment to endurance.
I am glad, however, that you're here to tell me what I want, since you seem to think you know it better than I do.
All I wanted to know is if other people felt that endurance costs are excessive, as I do. Fortunately, you said you don't agree, which is what I was asking, so I can just ignore the remainder of your bilge from now on.
Quote:
This is very true, but I don't see an adjustment to endurance use unbalancing anything. One thing at a time.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The issue here is that endurance management pre-20 doesn't exist in a vacuum, and is actually inextricably intertwined with other limitations that exist in the pre-20 game. To name a few:
|
All this commotion over endurance? With no mention of bad accuracy (edit: well, UberGuy, maybe others)? Weirdos. 95% is simply not enough. Ever.
Seriously, my irrationality aside, I find the game tedious too. Specifically, 15-21, ugh, awful levels. 22 is a magical time. After that even someone like me, who refuses to "build" characters, can somehow manage to get by. Stamina? Sometimes. Not always though, have a 33 Mercs/Poison MM without it, she does just fine. Had a 34 Dark/Elec Defender who also didn't have it, rerolled as a Dark/Rad who STILL doesn't need it at 27. Hell, I have an Axe/Fire Brute who's 21 (sans Stamina, no room until 24) and only occasionally has blue issues...oh hey, never mind, Consume has recharged, she's topped back off and at 80% Fury, I'd suggest you dirty Longbow start running but it's already too late.
Slot blue. Give yourself a half-second between button mashes. Sprint is off. Get the accolades. Know your enemies, know what they do and toggle off and on as appropriate, if you DON'T know them you will after two spawns max. Team, you might like it. Discover the joy of the Dominator. Win.
I heartily sign for that low-recharge Rest, btw. Fantastic idea.
Quote:
Is it your complete lack of how powers are balanced that causes you to post that obvious contradiction?| I have no problem with their lower damage mods. That it's there to counter their benefits to a team is absolutely great. I'm not ignoring that fact, but (other than being the initial cause) it's rather irrelevant to the increased endurance cost per damage they suffer, which does little to counter their team benefits and more to inflict needless "tedium" on their solo game. You can ignore that fact all you wish, etc. |
The defender's higher endurance per damage point is DIRECTLY related to their lower damage mod. They have higher end per damage BECAUSE they are a team based AT.
A power's recharge is chosen. An equation based off of that recharge value is then used to calculate the damage of that power. Then another equation using the damage value is used to calculate the end cost.
If you like you can reshape the recharge to damage equation to get the recharge to end equation.
What does this mean? Lower damage mod equals higher end cost per damage point.
It is specifically BECAUSE they are force multipliers that they have a higher end cost per damage point. That IS the balance. They DO more so it COSTS them more.
The extra solo "tedium" is there by design as a balance point against their teaming benefits. Why is something so simple so difficult for some people to grasp?
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
| Your attempt at putting words in my mouth fails. I never said I wanted a first person shooter. |
Quote:
| equalizing things across the ATs |
Quote:
| The checkers analogy is similar. Both players have the same pieces with the same abilities. It's down to skill and cunning. |
Quote:
| I'm a goalie. I have exactly the same equipment and team composition going for me that my opponent does. It's down to skill. |
I didn't put those words in your mouth. You typed them out for everyone to see. What you didn't type out is that you want defenders to solo as well as scrappers without giving up any of the force multiplication abilities.
You're not asking for anything other than tankmagery. Just like always.
Quote:
| I am glad, however, that you're here to tell me what I want, since you seem to think you know it better than I do. |
Quote:
| I have seen 5 other players total in the last couple of weeks. 3 in Atlas, one in Steel, and one in King's Row. I specifically went around looking for people. My friends list, nearly 100 strong, was empty. No one was on. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I didn't bring up any of that, I was responding to other people who brought them up, including you.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
First person shooters: Everyone gets the same gear. Has the same characters. It's all about skill, a good mouse, a good internet connection and twitch reflexes.
I didn't put those words in your mouth. You typed them out for everyone to see. What you didn't type out is that you want defenders to solo as well as scrappers without giving up any of the force multiplication abilities. You're not asking for anything other than tankmagery. Just like always. |
Quote:
|
Yes, I'm correcting your lies so that those reading your posts understand what you're really after and what it would turn this game into. Learn to use /search and quit lying. |
I've said repeatedly what I'm after. In this thread, it's less onerous endurance management. That's ALL.
Quote:
Having lower damage because they are a team based AT is good balance. Paying more for their damage is not.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The defender's higher endurance per damage point is DIRECTLY related to their lower damage mod. They have higher end per damage BECAUSE they are a team based AT.
|
Quote:
| It is specifically BECAUSE they are force multipliers that they have a higher end cost per damage point. That IS the balance. They DO more so it COSTS them more. |
Quote:
| The extra solo "tedium" is there by design as a balance point against their teaming benefits. Why is something so simple so difficult for some people to grasp? |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Fair enough. I feel it's safe to say that the devs completely disagree with you.
| I'd say that balancing team benefits by this sort of solo tedium is bad design from a sheer balance perspective, but serves well the intent to specifically nudge people who play those ATs into teaming. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
You're undoubtedly right, which is partly why I'm not really arguing for them to change it. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Fair enough. I feel it's safe to say that the devs completely disagree with you.
|
I don't hold it against them. In the scheme of things I must think they're largely doing things right or I wouldn't still be around.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
2: As explained, some of us are fine with the way endurance is dealt with here. It makes sense to us.
3: We all know that you're trying to get more soloability out of known team based ATs. Quit lying about your purpose. It's annoying.
Instead of "I don't do enough damage" it's "I don't have enough end."
In either thread, it's really "I want this to be a button pushing FPS instead of what it is and I'm going to whine about it until either everyone has me on ignore or I get banned from the forums as a nuisance."
Be well, people of CoH.