The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You want the ATs with lower damage mods, to get use less END on their attacks. Because they're using the same END on attacks as someone with a higher damage mod.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I didn't bring up any of that, I was responding to other people who brought them up, including you.
You're not correcting anything, youre deliberately calling me a liar in an effort to provoke me. As I said, there's a name for that. I've said repeatedly what I'm after. In this thread, it's less onerous endurance management. That's ALL. |
Example...
Ignoring Debuffs...and mind you this is a bit off since the recent added damage to Defenders in i17...
Defender is using Attack 1 which does 100 damage to target for 10 END.
Corruptor is using the SAME attack which does 150 damage for 10 END.
Now Attack 1 is the same for both ATs when it comes to END/RCH/DMG formula, but the Corruptor has the higher DMG MODIFIER...so the Corruptor basically has better DPE than the Defender.
So, to take out 300 Hit Point Target, the Defender has to spend 30 END, while the Corruptor only spends 20, using the next 10 END on a new target and thusly keep on moving.
That's what it seems you want. Am I mistaken?
Well, it's the damage mods, between the different ATs, that change the DPE. And that's balanced by what the AT brings to the table for the team. You pick a defender to solo with, you know this going in.
And since this is talking about solo. With the recent damage buff to Defenders now, their solo ability has been brought up to par. I mean really, I never really heard alot of people complain about soloing Corruptors. Defenders sure, but not Corrs. And now Defenders are equal with Corrs on Soloing.
Or is this about a Scrapper soloing a mission faster than a Defender? At which point, I have to think duh. But put them into a team enviorment, that Defender is adding so much more to the team, the team moves faster.
If you don't like teaming, then pick an AT more suited to soloing.
If it's because of powersets, why not instead suggest new ATs...maybe a middle grund Ranged/Buff set, that does more damage than a Corr, but who's buffs are even weaker than a Corr.
I've played every AT except Kheldians to a significant level (Dom is at lvl 32, MM is at lvl 47, every other AT I've played to 50 except Kheldians)...it's not that hard to manage END. The reason people PL to 20, is because they don't know how to manage end, want an easier time of it (face it Stamina makes it easier), or they're tired of low levels.
If I can run my Defenders (before the dmg boost) unslotted, keep my end up, and solo with them (be it slowly), non stop in a mission, anyone can. I'm just not up to Billz skills at this game.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It would change nothing. People would still be gasping for air, and going "I NEED STAMINA" look at the VEATS, who get extra END REC as their inherent ability.|
Originally Posted by Seraphael
I tend to agree somewhat with the OP. The endurance mechanism is tedious. The need to take Stamina in almost every build is tedious. Making base recovery a little higher would be an improvement on the overall gaming experience.
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No one NEEDS Stamina. We all want it, because we love going fast and love going nonstop.
We don't want to sit around and rest. We want to be in the fight smashing buttons.
If that's what you want, you build for it. Can you do it without Stamina? Yes. Is it tougher? Yup. Is it doable. Yes. Is there costs to it? Maybe, depends on how you build.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I've heard that too many times on these boards. Of course, no one NEEDS just about anything. But if you plan on having fun, if you plan on keeping up with your team to contribute in a meaningful way and plan on being to be competetive, then it's not practical to be without Stamina for most power sets in the game.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It would change nothing. People would still be gasping for air, and going "I NEED STAMINA" look at the VEATS, who get extra END REC as their inherent ability.
No one NEEDS Stamina. We all want it, because we love going fast and love going nonstop. |
Higher base recovery would make a bad situation a little better. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Need is nearly synonomous with want. Anything you could describe with one I could describe with the other. For instance, you might say you need air to live, but I would counter that you simply want air if you don't want to suffocate. Of course, if you want to suffocate you don't want air. "Need" basically just implies an If/Then of wanting.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
No one NEEDS Stamina.
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That said, I "need" Stamina almost exactly as much as I "need" to play this game. With the current blue usage, if Stamina weren't in the game I probably would have given up on it. I certainly wouldn't have been able to make my Toggle Man-inspired character playable.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I play on Virtue. I've seen plenty of people get along just fine without Stamina for general missioning.|
Originally Posted by Seraphael
I've heard that too many times on these boards. Of course, no one NEEDS just about anything. But if you plan on having fun, if you plan on keeping up with your team to contribute in a meaningful way and plan on being to be competetive, then it's not practical to be without Stamina for most power sets in the game.
Higher base recovery would make a bad situation a little better. Nothing more, nothing less. |
Would I ever go at their rate? HELL NO! But there are people who do, and get by just fine and have fun.
The problem is, with much of this thread, it's really "I can't have fun without Stamina, but I'd REALLY REALLY like to take another power pool instead"
I know that feeling. I have that feeling almost everytime I look at my main's build and go...I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT this Power Pool for the concept, but I can't fit it in! If I want to be up to my other points...
Ie...I have to have Leadership, Fitness, Fighting and Fly! Now I could skip Fly, but even then, I'm using just Hover, and for my concept to really work, I need Phase Shift, which could be covered by a temp power, but then it doesn't feel like my concept to me. It feels like a temp power.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I find the problems that the OP was citing are most pronounced in the first 20 levels or so. Stamina at 20 certainly helps, but I'd say that SOs at 22 help even more to alleviate the problem. Alleviating said "tedium" would be beneficial independent of opening up builds, I'd say.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The problem is, with much of this thread, it's really "I can't have fun without Stamina, but I'd REALLY REALLY like to take another power pool instead"
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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A few things come to mind here:|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This statement baffles me. Why would ANYONE design a game where ANYTHING in it is not supposed to be fun?
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Aion has a mechanic that also shows up in other MMOs that's decidedly not fun, IMO.
"You. Go forth and gather. Yeah, wave your hand at some Aether, or that plant, or that ore. Oh, by the way, the stuff I want you to gather is 30 levels above your gathering skill. Go gather a LOT."
It's not particularly fun. It's time consuming. But it is several other things as well:
- Eastern MMO design, burning those game time cards/cybercafe time.
- A gateway to other things (crafting, money)
- Perhaps "fun" to some, as everyone's definition is different.
The argument's been made that the newbie doesn't know how to slot for END reduction and the like. That, of course, is why they're a newbie. They have to learn these things. They also don't know about how a Carnie Ring Mistress can affect them, about Sappers, about "Target the Raider Engineer first." They're not incapable of learning these things, and they're not incapable of learning to slot for END usage. A good number take the "lazy" way out and take stamina, yes, but at some point they may want to "fit more in" and take a long, hard look at their slotting. Nothing prevents them from learning it. It's how you become "not a newbie."
And that goes for other slotting, as well. Learning to take advantage of secondary effects, targeted building and the like.
Not to mention other "not fun" things have led to increased fun. I know everyone *loved* ED.
Yet without it, or something similar, we wouldn't have IOs, something which greatly expands what a character is capable of, and I'd suggest from the little we know of it that we'd likely not have the upcoming Incarnate system. If we didn't have END use as it is, what would we have - global recharge increase? Lowered power levels? Start feeling "not super" by not being powerful enough to deal with more than 1-2 minions at a time without great risk as opposed to the full groups we can now without much effort?If that sounds suspiciously related to the "risk/reward" mantra we've been given since, oh, day 1? It should.
As far as not fun - well, look at the forums. Some people *do* just have fun creating builds and finding ways around "problems" or "everyone does this." It could well *be* fun for them.
Oh, and the other direct reply to the question? "They're Robert Kotick."
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Rad's -def became a lot less useful than it used to be when the devs (correctly) made the tweak to low level accuracy, you don't miss as often now anyway at low level. I was also doing mine pre I17 and the solo defender buffs, it would be fine now. I wasn't saying it was unsoloable, just not fast enough to be fun without the vet attacks.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And rad gets a tier1 attack with a recharge so low that you can slap on auto and have it fire off between every other attack. The -def means that you're going to hit far more often than the /ene.
Ene's KB mitigation is there, but it's certainly not something that can be counted on. You know /rad's -def is going to work with every successful hit. Your argument has no rational basis to it. You think rad < ene but can't back it up with facts. You think defenders "basically" can't solo "decently" when you've been proven wrong. Got anything else? Or do I need to go crank up an FF/Rad def, not take any vet powers and solo it to 12 to prove my point... again. EDIT: I'm curious how long folks think it should take me to solo a def from 1-12. |
I also didn't say defenders can't solo, I said a new player with a FF/rad couldn't solo decently pre I17, my rad/sonic has always solod fine.
Another comment from elsewhere I need to answer is the one that new players should be encouraged to team not solo. Quite right, BUT a lot of new players in my experience like to solo to start off with while they get used to the controls etc, I know I do in any new game I play. That's why the first say 10 levels should be very soloable for everybody.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Need is nearly synonomous with want. Anything you could describe with one I could describe with the other. For instance, you might say you need air to live, but I would counter that you simply want air if you don't want to suffocate. Of course, if you want to suffocate you don't want air. "Need" basically just implies an If/Then of wanting.
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| that's stupid and you're stupid. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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There is nothing exclusive in this game. Any rewards I earn, you have the same ability to earn them as well. We log in in the same place. There is no City of Africa where you log in impoverished and malnourished. Everyone has access to everything. Everyone can do the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Actually, SinisterDirge, I'm all or equality. Personally, I like a level playing field. I'd LOVE it if everyone had access to everything because everything was the same. If this were so, then it would be skill and cunning that would win.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
However, I'm not suggesting anything so radical, though you seem to be implying I am. All I've said is endurance should be recalibrated. From the reaction, you'd think I was suggesting destroying everything.
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The little guy has been inquisitive enough to post repeatedly here on these forums, asking where everyone is, how do they do this, that, and the other thing, but I have never seen them post about sucking end. You are not the Narod.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I play Hockey. I'm a goalie. I have exactly the same equipment and team composition going for me that my opponent does. It's down to skill. I'm not required to give up my stick and pads after facing the first 10 shots, and the other team doesn't get to have 20 players on the ice. That's the kind of thing I see in CoH.
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No, you dont have to give up your pads and stick and face 20 guys. Do players not rest on the benches besides the intermissions? They all play 60 mins each game, more if it goes into overtime? Christ, can I be on your team?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The checkers analogy is similar. Both players have the same pieces with the same abilities. It's down to skill and cunning.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I've said before, it's not about my personal builds (plural, since I'm not referring to just one character or AT). Endurance use is excessive FOR EVERYONE. My opinion, of course. It does seem to me, however, that if everything were as rosy and dandy as you are making out, there wouldn't be any threads like this, by me or the many others who have made the same observation.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Of course, the real danger is the silent many that just quit without telling us they found it not fun gasping for breath all the time. The game can't afford to lose any more players, especially new ones.
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That's pretty much par for the course with every thread Ultimo starts about game mechanics. He finds some aspect of the game that doesn't mesh with his own personal unrealistic vision of what his characters should be able to do, and rather than alter his own playstyle, or adapt to the situation, or learn new skills & tactics, he just whines about how it's "not fun" and the game should be changed to suit him.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
You have said a bit more than that mate. You said that if it isnt fun, they should change it. Alot of people here are saying, wait a sec, it is currently fun, we don't want to see them trivialize the game any more than it has been, we dont agree with you, and here is why _____. You respond back with "well, i dont think its fun blah blah current rant blah blah." So we give you many options to deal with that. That isnt enough, you want the devs to make the game easier for you under the guise of altruism, doing it for the little guy.
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My list of constraints pre-20 was given in response to the claim that endurance woes are the primary reason people race to level 20+. I certainly do think it is one reason. I think it is inaccurate to claim that it is the sole reason, in support of the claim that something should be done about pre-20 endurance.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This is very true, but I don't see an adjustment to endurance use unbalancing anything. One thing at a time.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No one has even remotely said that. You dont need to purple a build. You dont need to use sets. You dont need to franken slot. You dont need to use IO's at all. You dont need to use stamina, you dont need to use physical perfection. You dont need to use conserve power. You dont need to use temp powers. You dont need to use accolades. You dont need to use inspirations. You dont need to combine inspirations to get exactly the one you need. You dont need to use end reductions in your powers. You dont need to use powersets that have end managment powers in them. You dont need to rely on team mates with end recovery powers. You dont need to use brawl and your origin power. You dont need to pause for a second between attacks. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The claptrap coming from most of the people giving Ultimo_ grief is saying what amounts to "Poor people are poor because they want to be. Otherwise they'd be rich like me." It's nothing more than e-peen waggery from the usual wastes and Ultimo_ would do best to just turn his crap filter on.
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Tell you what though, sure helps if you do.
Wow... 16 ways to help end recovery, and I bet I missed a few.
There are no have nots in this game. There are alot of cant-be-bothered-to's. No one is stopping you from doing what you want to do. Petless MM? Sure! Blappers? Okay! Scrankers? Why the f not? A big green Encreddible Bulk? Sorry... not the way we roll.
What would you do to rebalance the game for more end? What would you give up Johnny?
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Its SO's... Stamina is great, but SO's roxxors the boxxors.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
My list of constraints pre-20 was given in response to the claim that endurance woes are the primary reason people race to level 20+. I certainly do think it is one reason. I think it is inaccurate to claim that it is the sole reason, in support of the claim that something should be done about pre-20 endurance.
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If IOs were removed from the game, I would probably stop playing, as chasing them is one of my sole long-term interests. By your logic, I "need" IOs. Should we therefore conclude that it's OK for other people to claim to "need" IOs, and thus conclude that IOs (and the levels of performance they offer) should be far easier to obtain?|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Need is nearly synonomous with want. Anything you could describe with one I could describe with the other. For instance, you might say you need air to live, but I would counter that you simply want air if you don't want to suffocate. Of course, if you want to suffocate you don't want air. "Need" basically just implies an If/Then of wanting.
That said, I "need" Stamina almost exactly as much as I "need" to play this game. With the current blue usage, if Stamina weren't in the game I probably would have given up on it. I certainly wouldn't have been able to make my Toggle Man-inspired character playable. |
The same line of thinking arises from the existence of Stamina. Nearly everyone likes what it does for them, (they "need" it by your logic) so the argument is that everyone should get its benefits automatically. I don't believe that follows.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
What's with flaming the OP with things like "build better" or such. This is kinda ridiculous. If you really enjoy the end constraint as it is, fine. I you think it's a non issue, fine too. But you can state that without implying that people who think endurance can be an issue and a "non fun factor" in this game suck. I dont personnally think that the whole endurance needs to be redone, and I really prefer the endurance concept we have in this game than what mana is in most other MMOs, given that we have many tools to make it a non-issue like 95% of the time. However, I certainly think that it could use a tweak or two to be made better.
I have many level 50 toons, some of them probably being built better than most of the "build better crowd" in this thread. I usually plan my builds far ahead, and use IOs to frankenslot as soon as possible. Most of my characters being scrappers/brutes/tanks, and having a "non-stop attack" playstyle, one of my first and main concern is often about end consumption and about how to make it a non-issue. Do I manage to do it ? Yea, most of the time. Do I think it's fun ? No, personnally I don't think so, especially in the 1-22 range before stamina and SOs.
If we had a tracking tool able to compile all the builds posted on this board as guides or advices, and we looked at the percentage of them without stamina, I think it would be less than 5%. So stating that stamina isnt absolutely necessary and you can plan a build and play totally fine without it, is probably not an accurate description of the state of the game in my opinion. Stamina is almost a mandatory power actually, and I think it is fundamentally a weak game design (such a great game by so many aspects I can easily forgive it, knowing nothing is ever perfect). I also understand that for many players, it is as it is, and they got used to it so for them it's a non-issue. It's obviously not a reason to berate people who raise this issue. And that doesnt mean either that the game would not be better and more enjoyable for everyone, especially new players, with a higher base endurance recovery, and maybe a bit less powerful and mandatory stamina.
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Probably because several of us are already familiar with his posting history and simply have very little patience for more of the same silliness.|
Originally Posted by Ehina
What's with flaming the OP seriously, with things like "build better or such".
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| If we had a tracking tool able to compile all the builds posted on this board as guides or advices, and we looked at the percentage of them without stamina, I think it would be less than 5%. |
I bet 95% of Blaster builds contain Aim & Build-Up. So, apparently Blasters don't do enough damage and their damage should be buffed.
I'll also wager that 95% of builds posted on the forum utilize Fly, Super Jump, Super Speed or Teleport. I can therefore conclude that base speeds are too low and need to be buffed across the board for all AT's.
And while I am sure it is less than 95%, I'll also wager that the majority of builds posted also use Hasten. Powers must take too long to recharge then. Guess we need to reduce recharge times on all powers as well.
Wow.. I'm getting pretty excited here. Let's do this! I'm eagerly looking forward to my new Blaster with lower endurance usage, more damage, no wasted power picks on travel powers, and perma-hasten from level 1. Sounds good to me! We'll also need to increase the difficulty options to +6/x16 to go along with this, of course...
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| And that doesnt mean either that the game would not be better and more enjoyable for everyone, especially new players, with a higher base endurance recovery, and maybe a bit less powerful and mandatory stamina. |
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It's prior history of the OP and discussions like this. It's not "people" that are being replied to as such - and most of those in this thread will quite happily and politely help a newbie (or forum newbie) who comes in and says "Hey, I'm having END problems" or whatever else. It's specifically response to the OP.
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Originally Posted by Ehina
What's with flaming the OP seriously, with things like "build better or such". This is really ridiculous. If you enjoy the end constraint, fine. I you think it's a no issue, fine too. But you can state that without implying that people who think endurance can be an issue and a "no-fun factor" in this game suck.
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Probably as 95% (if not 100%) of the Super Strength builds posted on those boards have Footstomp, right. But we're talking here about a particular defining power in a given powerset (as BU is a defining power in the whole blaster AT). And there are such powers for every powersets/AT, give me one powerset and I'll give you a power in it that is likely to be present in almost any Mids build posted on this forum.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
So, let's apply that same logic to some other powers.
I bet 95% of Blaster builds contain Aim & Build-Up. So, apparently Blasters don't do enough damage and their damage should be buffed. I'll also wager that 95% of builds posted on the forum utilize Fly, Super Jump, Super Speed or Teleport. I can therefore conclude that base speeds are too low and need to be buffed across the board for all AT's. |
For the travel powers, if 95% of the builds used one specific travel power and not any of the others, it would likely mean there were some inbalance too. But that's not the case.
Stamina is probably the only power, with Health, that you can find in 95%+ of the posted Mids builds in this forum, whatever the AT/powerset choice is. And Health, even if a very good power, is there most of the time as a Stamina pre-requisite. Hasten is a popular choice also, likely to be present in more than half of the builds in those boards, but nowhere near Stamina I think. (I have no evidence for those figures of course, and I hope you will agree they give a fair account of how things are going, because I wont give any
)I really do think it says something about stamina and the basic endurance recovery vs consumption in the game. Does it make CoX a "tedious" game, or does the whole endurance concept need to be redone ? Certainly no. I like it how it is for the most part as I said before. Could it use some tweaks making stamina less "mandatory" and the endurance constraint a bit lighter sometime, or the global recovery just a bit higher ? I think it could. Just my opinion though
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If you have to counter that many people, perhaps you're not in the majority on this issue. eh?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Rush Bolt, All Hell, Panzerwaffen, DrHR:
I've been around for several years, I know how to build. All my characters have Stamina, triple slotted and endurance reduction in every power. The point, which you either missed or ignored, is that it's not fun standing around unable to act. Not in this game, nor in any other. CaptA: I'm referring to characters throughout their careers, and not just between battles. Psycho Jas: Ok... Iceboxer: It's most obvious and crippling on characters that do less damage because they're using more endurance to defeat the same foes. It's still an issue all around, though. ShoeTattoo: I agree. SinisterDirge: Endurance should be part of the game. I said that in the first post. However, it shouldn't be a "constraint" on fun. As it is, it's excessively constraining. I agree soloability is important, but I do think EVERY character should be comparably able to do so. Biospark: You illustrate part of what I'm saying. We spend a lot of time and energy achieving higher levels and new, cool powers, then can't use them because we're out of endurance. Why bother leveling if I'm going to be forced to use my Power Bolts instead of everything else due to endurance issues. Your suggestions are valuable, but I think they're a band-aid on a broken leg. They don't really solve the problem. Frosticus: Chances are you're using less endurance because your allies are defeating the foes for you, or because there's someone with an endurance reducing power helping you. Again, as mentioned above, you shouldn't need a PhD in character design to be able to have fun with it. Frankenslotting and advanced building and whatnot is well and good, but often isn't useful and is usually beyond the casual player. Soloability is important. I'd be willing to bet 90% of the time people are soloing in the game. Every class should be equally able to solo (though through different means) and should still bring something unique to a team. THAT would be good design. Postagulous: If you say so... Nethergoat: Then you're a rarity, or have spent billions of Influence on your character. Firewyvern: Yes, I have, and as I said in the original post, none of them are as restrictive as this game is. I can go to Lord of the Rings Online and fight pretty much continuously without fear of running out of power before I defeat my foe. That is, battles are decided not by lack of power, but by lack of health, which is how it should be. Emberley: Personal slights won't change the fact that endurance costs are excessive. Fulmens: Personal attacks, such as blatantly accusing me of lies, will be reported. Watch your step. Firey-Enforcer: As I mentioned, I'm referring to characters across all levels. GavinRuneBlade: I'm not necessarily suggesting a total revamp, just an assesment and a recalibration. Rush Bolt: The case is in experience. That is, it's just not fun running out of endurance so fast. Sure, if you're fighting an army, or a foe that takes an unusual long time to beat, then perhaps you should have an issue. Fighting a typical spawn should not exhaust you. If you want numbers, just compare damage output. All characters are expected to defeat the same foes, meaning they all have to inflict the same total damage. Some deal that damage for less endurance. THAT is part of the problem. As I said before, it should be a limit, but not on fun. Uberguy: I'll admit I have made some concept builds, but I AM an experienced player. I HAVE taken advice and tried many of the suggestions offered. I've found them all to be inadequate. Yes, build should have some impact, and yes tactics should be important, but if the main tactic inthe game is NOT doing anything because you have no endurance then I see that as a problem. I've also said in the past, that if a build is to be possible, it should be capable, too. I'm not pretending designing that is easy, but it sure wouldn't be hard to make endurance use less prohibitive. Also, I feel I should warn you against personal slights. You haven't made any directly, but you're treading the line. I hope we can keep things civil and hopefully productive. Fulmens: I wasn't aware of that new power until this thread, but it only illustrates to me that the devs have recognized there's an issue. Again, I see it as a band-aid, not a solution. Milady's Knight: I agree with your analysis, but I don't think the devs have done enough. Cybernaut: Having Rest always available would certainly be nice, but it's not really between battles that the problem lies. Starting at SOs would be nice, but again, I don't think it fixes the main issue. Oedipus Tex: I'd agree with you, but I do think Endurance should be in the game. I just find its impact far too significant. I certainly wouldn't miss it if it was removed entirely, though. Sunstormer: It just seems to me the challenge should be overcoming the enemy, not your endurance woes. Johhny Butane: Nice to see someone in agreement with me. I also hope the devs will do something with the endurance situation. Merry Mint: I think you're getting what I'm saying. Endurance should be part of the game, just not the main obstacle to overcome. I apologize in advance as I'm not likely to make a detailed response like this again, it's just too hard to keep track of everything and is rather time consuming. I'll respond to points I find particularly interesting or illuminating, and I thank you all for your considered responses. |
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Would you be willing to trade weaker damage, or buffs, or debuffs, or recharge, or accuracy, or defence, or resistance, or mez protection for the reduced endurance? Not I.
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Originally Posted by Ehina
Probably as 95% (if not 100%) of the Super Strength builds posted on those boards have Footstomp, right. But we're talking here about a particular defining power in a given powerset (as BU is a defining power in the whole blaster AT). And there are such powers for every powersets/AT, give me one powerset and I'll give you a power in it that is likely to be present in almost any Mids build posted on this forum.
For the travel powers, if 95% of the builds used one specific travel power and not any of the others, it would likely mean there were some inbalance too. But that's not the case. Stamina is probably the only power, with Health, that you can find in 95%+ of the posted Mids builds in this forum, whatever the AT/powerset choice is. And Health, even if a very good power, is there most of the time as a Stamina pre-requisite. Hasten is a popular choice also, likely to be present in more than half of the builds in those boards, but nowhere near Stamina I think. (I have no evidence for those figures of course, and I hope you will agree they give a fair account of how things are going, because I wont give any )I really do think it says something about stamina and the basic endurance recovery vs consumption in the game. Does it make CoX a "tedious" game, or does the whole endurance concept need to be redone ? Certainly no. I like it how it is for the most part as I said before. Could it use some tweaks making stamina less "mandatory" and the endurance constraint a bit lighter sometime, or the global recovery just a bit higher ? I think it could. Just my opinion though |
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Majority matters not. What he is looking for is a "signifigant percentage" Apparently 10% is signifigant. The other signifigant percentage of 90% can be out right ignored.
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
If you have to counter that many people, perhaps you're not in the majority on this issue. eh?
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Personally, I feel there are some issues at lower levels particularly in the teens, but once you get SOs and stamina, endurace is no problem. That's not to say I always have a full blue bar or anything, but that, barring sappers or other end-drainers, I'm never faced with a situation which I can't handle. Hell, my widow munches endurance at an insane rate, yet I don't go around whining. Instead I just pop loads of blue pills. 
Though, as I said, I do feel that low level toons could do with a boost of some form regarding endurance. In particular, while I find I usually have enough to get me through a fight, I often have to wait around before the next one - either for end, or for health because I had to stop using my defenses cos I needed the end to attack - which isn't fun. Thus, the simplest way IMO would be to cut the recharge on Rest to, say, 30 secs. That way, you can cut out the waiting without affecting combat itself.
The idea that something would be designed not to be fun is what baffles me. I can see the gathering quests in most MMOs being tedious, but I can also see them being entertaining so some people. It gets you out into the world, exploring and seeing new stuff. Anyway, kind of off topic.
Everyone has access to everything, but not equal access. You obviously offered the hockey analogy so you you could shoot it down. Straw Man. So, let's get back to CoH. Endurance use is not equal. Defenders use the same endurance for their Energy Blasts as Blasters, but do half the damage. Thus, they use twice the endurance defeating the same foes. That's not equality.
I haven't suggested anything radical. I haven't suggested changing anything except endurance.
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Actually, I've been told exactly this. From the FIRST reply, I've been told to build better, frankenslot and get teammates.| No one has even remotely said that. You dont need to purple a build. You dont need to use sets. You dont need to franken slot. You dont need to use IO's at all. You dont need to use stamina, you dont need to use physical perfection. You dont need to use conserve power. You dont need to use temp powers. You dont need to use accolades. You dont need to use inspirations. You dont need to combine inspirations to get exactly the one you need. You dont need to use end reductions in your powers. You dont need to use powersets that have end managment powers in them. You dont need to rely on team mates with end recovery powers. You dont need to use brawl and your origin power. You dont need to pause for a second between attacks. |
Interestingly, I'd agree Blasters need more damage, specifically because damage is their defense. If they can't take their foes down rapidly, they don't last long. However, that's another thread.
Shred, I'm responding to that many people out of courtesy and respect. You DO know what respect and courtesy are, right?
I've not said what would make a significant majority, because that is ALSO a matter of opinion. If you think 10% is significant, then I disagree. For my part, something approaching 50% would be a significant number, since you seem to require a number.
People flame me for no reason because they disagree with things I've said in the past, and can't let go of it. I'll grant, I've said some radical things in the past, and I've been embroiled in numerous wars of words (though, I'm NEVER the one to start the wars). There are just some people that can't abide anyone having an opinion or ideas that conflict with their own, and will attack anyone who so much as discusses an idea (whether it would be implemented or not). Of course, there are also those who just need that boost to their self esteem they get from attacking someone, safe in the anonymity of the internet.
I'll say no more on this, and will restrict my replies to comments made on topic.
I tend to agree somewhat with the OP. The endurance mechanism is tedious. The need to take Stamina in almost every build is tedious. Making base recovery a little higher would be an improvement on the overall gaming experience.