The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Stryker:
Some good suggestions on how to cope with the problem, but again, the problem still exists. Rush Bolt: This has little to do with my personal performance. As I say, I've considerable experience and rarely have any difficulty with anything in the game. The problem is it's just not fun playing when I'm more concerned with conserving endurance than defeating the enemy. Also, this is not some personal crusade (well, maybe a little). The fact is, I'm not the only one that has said this, and it's been brought up countless times over the years. That suggests to me that there's some kind of a problem that needs to be examined. Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters. |
The problem is people play, build and slot for "Max Power" and "Max Defenses" and ramp up the difficulty before they have matured, and then give out because they're gasping for Blue.
Building and slotting as Stryker suggests isn't "coping with an existing problem", it's playing the teen game as intended IMO. People tend to take their defensive toggles early and slot soley for Acc and Damage because they like over-egging the game difficulty early.
* * I don't see a reason for Rest not to be reduced to a 20 second recharge or something though (since the Time/Reward curve should still be the same between the "ramp it up to 11" crowd and the "it's a marathon, not a sprint" brigade).
Comparing this game to MMOs where your characters require the use of MP / Mana or otherwise with stupidly low regeneration rates, or the use of items to fuel your abilities which you can run out of, then this game is aweomse.
Guild Wars is the only game which does it better, and then as a tradeoff you can only take 8 spells / abilities out into the world with you, but atleast out of a fight you regenerated very well.
If we look at Aion, I played one of the spellcaster classes, and was constantly annoyed with the slow recovery rate of my mana, and compared out my odd day out with a melee character who suffered very little mana problems, it was frustrating, and I was constantly resting.
I also tried D&D online. As well as only being able to prepare 3 spells to take out into instances my mana would simply not recharge, but I NEEDED it to survive, it was all I had, and I had to wait ages between fights to get it back, and ONTOP of that my spells used items I had to buy, whereby some dude with a sword could just run in and hack stuff up and be done with it.
this is one of the ebst games for regen/recovery simply because the stand aroudn time for all ATs is the same, with some sets altering it, and built inteligently and later on in the game, theres very little issue, definately COH is the elast tedious MMO I have played.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Interesting thoughts Miladys. I too, wish that Stamina were more "optional", but even in its current form Stamina is not the "all-powerfull" gift most would believe.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
...The other thing that I have suggested is to take the sum of base recovery + stamina and change the proportions while leaving the net sum the same.
I see no reason why base recovery could not be increased and the recovery value of stamina decreased, so long as the totals (with stamina 3 slotted with SOs) remain the same. This would have the effect of having Stamina "feel" optional, rather than feeling required. |
Let me explain;
Stamina will give you a nice boost once 3-slotted, but there are two other things that occurr simultaneously. Your Attacks get a huge boost at SO level. So fewer attacks required to down a villain means less endurance used overall. And most folks (including me) will slot endurance reduction in the higher cost powers. Some people even slot endurance reduction in the smaller cost powers. I have known several Tankers that have done this in order to keep pluggin away with their attacks for indefinite amounts of time.
Dont get me wrong, I always take Stamina because its that good, but its not the "only" thing thats contributing to the wonderfully better experience after level 22 and SOs.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Definitely agree here. Only games I know of that come close are Diablo II and Runescape. Runescape you use items which you can run out of, but your inventory and ability to hold them make that a weekly or monthly event, not something that comes up during play. Diablo, between leech and potions and gear for bonuses, it was quite doable to keep your mana full. Quite a few builds were eventually unable to use all their mana nomatter what they did. Granted, some builds (Charged boltress) could have an excessively hard time maintaining mana. But overall both those two did a good job. Most of the rest I've tried? Crap.|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
this is one of the ebst games for regen/recovery simply because the stand aroudn time for all ATs is the same, with some sets altering it, and built inteligently and later on in the game, theres very little issue, definately COH is the elast tedious MMO I have played.
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Overall CoH does a good job.
The problem is that too much of that "good job" lies in making stamina universal. Without it, well, try an earth/SS tank with no stamina. Or a stone/SR brute. Or an Earth/Earth dominator. Oh sure you can do /EA or /Elec without stamina pretty easily. And most of the mid-range builds can be stamina free with a bit of effort. Some builds, you really can't. And the fact that some players can make stamina-free builds easily enough does not mean the majority of players can.
Right now, the majority of players require stamina to have fun with a build. Right now, the vast majority of "help me with my build" posts include stamina. On nearly every build for nearly every AT. Look through the forums. I challenge anyone to find an AT forum where more posted builds are stamina free than have stamina.
@Rush_Bolt
Really, you're constant harping on belittling posts via passive aggression is getting to the point of literal ridiculousness. As in deserving of ridicule. You deliberately choose children with ponies to make the comparison of other posters to spoiled children. That is an insult. No one is being that rude to you, please cut it out.
However, I lay out a counter challenge to you. I posit that the sheer weight of builds with stamina compared to builds without stamina is proof that the current system is borked. If you can find more builds that are stamina free than we can find with stamina, I'll agree that endurance costs are not too high in general.
But when 100% of the top performing builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use stamina, and when 100% of the lowest common denominator builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use it, it is clearly only optional in the same sense that IOs are optional.
When one specific power is that widely used to have basic functionality (low-end builds) and top tier performance (high-end builds) something is out of whack. If it were just those going for AVs with no temps and no insps, then fine. If it were just idiots who were wasting power picks like the guys with flurry, jump kick and whirlwind. Fine. But when it is across the whole spectrum on all ATs and on all powersets that don't have a built-in substitute as well as most that do (even most WillPower and Regen builds take stamina for example), I posit that the sheer volume of those builds with stamina compared to those without is the numerical proof.
I'm sure you'll repeat your pathetic example as I've cited a number of people speaking. But the goal of the game is to have fun. Running out of endurance is not fun. Having enough endurance is not godmode. As a game, the voice of the crowd is sometimes the only statistic that is needed. I posit that endurance is one of those circumstances. Please note that I am not claiming all circumstances the voice of the majority is enough. I am claiming in this specific instance it is.
Too many people have a negative experience of the game without stamina. As people have a negative experience they leave the game. That's not good for the company that makes the game's revenue. In turn that is not good for those of us who want the game to stick around. Endurance is not like a pony, it is not optional it is not a luxury. It seems to be the core throttle mechanic for experience gain. It is also the most obvious and basic limit on a new player's fun. That's qualitatively different from a pony. If you can't see that basic fact, then you truly do deserve to be ridiculed.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Tell me then, what limits do you think a toon should have? If endurance is fixed to your expectations, but you find yourself dying alot, would you like more hp? While standing in a spawn waiting for your powers to recharge, do you think about how much fun it would be if all your powers recharged instantly? I mean, you never see the Thing stop punching because his punch hasn't recharged... |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
SinisterDirge:
Endurance should be part of the game. I said that in the first post. However, it shouldn't be a "constraint" on fun. As it is, it's excessively constraining. I agree soloability is important, but I do think EVERY character should be comparably able to do so. |
Honestly, where do you think the devs should balance things?
Every character I have rolled is able to solo. Some faster/easier than others but they can all solo.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.)
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters.
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If I may recommend one more band aid though... I still forget about it on practically every toon I roll. When fighting, turn off sprint.
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You tried soloing a lvl 1 FF/rad def before the I17 defender changes with no vet attacks ?|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Every character I have rolled is able to solo. Some faster/easier than others but they can all solo.
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I have never been more happy to be a 70 odd month vet
On the main subject of the post, at really low levels, unless you have a lot of vet stuff, you won't run out of end. The bad time is about 8-19 for a lot of toons, certain sets (try a DA/SM or ice/SM tank solo) are awkward beyond stamina till you get set IOs or your end recovery power.
That said, it's always surmountable with a decent build, and acquiring the inf for a functional (if not uber) build has never been easier.
Since prior to I17 I was only in the troublesome levels for about 5 hours or so of playtime (old posi and synapse would get you 10-20 on a decent sized team), I was happy to live with the way end use worked.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Not Rush, obviously, but... |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
@Rush_Bolt Really, you're constant harping on belittling posts via passive aggression is getting to the point of literal ridiculousness. As in deserving of ridicule. You deliberately choose children with ponies to make the comparison of other posters to spoiled children. That is an insult. No one is being that rude to you, please cut it out. However, I lay out a counter challenge to you. I posit that the sheer weight of builds with stamina compared to builds without stamina is proof that the current system is borked. If you can find more builds that are stamina free than we can find with stamina, I'll agree that endurance costs are not too high in general. But when 100% of the top performing builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use stamina, and when 100% of the lowest common denominator builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use it, it is clearly only optional in the same sense that IOs are optional. When one specific power is that widely used to have basic functionality (low-end builds) and top tier performance (high-end builds) something is out of whack. If it were just those going for AVs with no temps and no insps, then fine. If it were just idiots who were wasting power picks like the guys with flurry, jump kick and whirlwind. Fine. But when it is across the whole spectrum on all ATs and on all powersets that don't have a built-in substitute as well as most that do (even most WillPower and Regen builds take stamina for example), I posit that the sheer volume of those builds with stamina compared to those without is the numerical proof. I'm sure you'll repeat your pathetic example as I've cited a number of people speaking. But the goal of the game is to have fun. Running out of endurance is not fun. Having enough endurance is not godmode. As a game, the voice of the crowd is sometimes the only statistic that is needed. I posit that endurance is one of those circumstances. Please note that I am not claiming all circumstances the voice of the majority is enough. I am claiming in this specific instance it is. Too many people have a negative experience of the game without stamina. As people have a negative experience they leave the game. That's not good for the company that makes the game's revenue. In turn that is not good for those of us who want the game to stick around. Endurance is not like a pony, it is not optional it is not a luxury. It seems to be the core throttle mechanic for experience gain. It is also the most obvious and basic limit on a new player's fun. That's qualitatively different from a pony. If you can't see that basic fact, then you truly do deserve to be ridiculed. |
Stamina's in an interesting place, power-wise. It's perceived as necessary - but why?
Do you play tanks or scrappers? How often do you detoggle your armors intentionally? I mean, if you're fighting (say) Family, you don't need Energy/Negative Energy/Fire/Cold protection - but I bet your character's running those armors as well. If you (and I do mean a generic you here as well as the specific) get killed, I bet you turn on everything or nearly everything.
Now, some you can't help it - Fire tanks, for instance, have a grand total of two armors, and one of them carries status protection. But do you leave, say, Blazing Aura on? Watch as you play one day - I'd bet you'll see a number of Fire tanks SSing/SJing/etc. to the mission with BA on.
(This isn't a "I'm better than that" post - I do it too. The only time I really, REALLY pay attention to my armors is on Dark Armor, since I don't need CoF or OG running all the time, so I do a lot more toggling on and off.)
Similarly, how do you (generic) slot? Are you sacrificing damage or accuracy for end reduction in everything? Are you sacrificing recharge for it? (I'm not wandering into IO builds here and bonuses, though they can make some of this up.)
Stamina is - well, stamina's the automobile of COH.
What do I mean by that... Well, think. Could you get along without a car, doing what you do for a week without one? Everyone could to some extent - I've been living without one for a few months (expensive repairs.) (I'm fortunate enough to work from home.) Can I do without a car? Yes. I can walk to a corner store, bike to another one, and do a lot of ordering online. Do I *like* living without one? Not particularly. Is a car necessary? No. Is it *damn* convenient? Yes. It's a great time (and leg) saver.
Similarly, Stamina lets you concentrate on something other than END usage, for the most part. You can put in more damage/accuracy/holds/procs instead of an END reduction. You can toggle everything, or nearly everything, on and pretty much forget about it. It's a convenience to the point that people see it as a necessity.
(I'd also suggest that it helps in other ways - by having to take two prerequisites, you're not firing off MORE powers and using their END before Stamina, burning through blue even faster, plus the slots you'd want to put in those powers, that few seem to put in swift/hurdle/health, get put in the "fun" powers instead, making them stronger earlier. Think of what you'd take and how you'd try to slot without those prerequisites.)
Personally, my only "pre-stamina" END gripe isn't "I don't have any," but that we end up facing Clockwork and Mu - often in large numbers - before we have the tools (not just stamina, but SOs and near-SO level IOs) to deal with their END drain and recovery debuffs.
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Nope. Haven't tried a petless mastermind either, or a "MAN" build. I do have a lvl 39 emp/psi that I can solo with thouigh.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
You tried soloing a lvl 1 FF/rad def before the I17 defender changes with no vet attacks?
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Also, not directed to you personally Minotaur, but I always love when people say without this, or without that. Why wouldn't people use everything at their disposal? Hell, you don't even need vet powers anymore. You can't run a mish without 3 temp powers dropping on you these days...
Another bit on topic. Didn't the lvling curve adjustment effectively allow people to lvl faster while using less endurance? The game gets easier and easier. Do people really want the hellions to just give up as soon as the hero enters the mish? "Oh ****! its _____! Nevermind guys, lay down, playdead. Give him your xp's."
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Well I'd rather that be an option I could toggle on or off depending on my mood.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Do people really want the hellions to just give up as soon as the hero enters the mish? "Oh ****! its _____! Nevermind guys, lay down, playdead. Give him your xp's."
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Again, the problem is most noticable at lower level, but it is still significant at higher level.
I should also remind you all that it's not something that we can't compensate for. I'm saying that compensating for it is undercutting the entertainment value of the game.
I'm also not saying it's hopeless or worthless. I'm just saying it needs a recalibration. We shouldn't be running out of endurance as fast as we are, and everyone should be equally affected by it.
SinisterDirge, I think endurance should be restricting characters, just not as much as it does. I've said it several times in this thread, even. I'd also agree that if characters are dying too much, then they may need more health or defense to compensate if that's why they're dying a lot. Also, while a significant portion have said things are fine, I'm also seeing a significant portion saying there may be a problem.
I wouldn't want foes to lay down, I want to be able to fight them and not have to stop midway because I'm out of endurance. I shouldn't be more of a threat to myself than my foes are. That is, my foes should defeat me because they DEFEAT me, not because I have to essentially stop fighting.
Memphis Bill, you make an interesting point. It kind of feeds into another beef of mine, that the game seems to want to prevent you actually fighting back, what with all the holds, stuns, sleeps, drains and so on that prevent you defending yourself. And to think that a large number of these effects are on foes from L1-L15 (Vazhilok, Clockwork, Lost, etc.) when you don't have the means to defend yourself (yes, you have inspirations, but they go pretty quick). No one wants to be a helpless punching bag, whether it be because of status effects or lack of endurance.
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I did make that disclaimer, actually.|
Originally Posted by GreenBone
And I would caution the OP to insinuate that elements of the game are "not fun" without qualifying it as opinion (though that's insinuated).
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
(All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.)
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Emberley, if I recall the thread you refer to, no one proved I was a liar. If anything was proved it was that I was in error. Either way, it has nothing to do with this thread, and I'm not going to waste any more time on personal slights.
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I did always think that meeting Mu when you're like level 12 was terribly annoying.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Personally, my only "pre-stamina" END gripe isn't "I don't have any," but that we end up facing Clockwork and Mu - often in large numbers - before we have the tools (not just stamina, but SOs and near-SO level IOs) to deal with their END drain and recovery debuffs.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Look, I run a bloody Dark Armor tank with tough/weave and don't ever run out of endurance. I have not lost any fun because I had to slot for a little bit of endurance reduction.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Again, the problem is most noticable at lower level, but it is still significant at higher level.
I should also remind you all that it's not something that we can't compensate for. I'm saying that compensating for it is undercutting the entertainment value of the game. I'm also not saying it's hopeless or worthless. I'm just saying it needs a recalibration. We shouldn't be running out of endurance as fast as we are, and everyone should be equally affected by it. |
What you're asking for is flat out ridiculous. "If I build poorly, I run out of endurance. Make the game easier."
Here's an idea. We'll give you an attack power that costs zero endurance, recharges quickly, can be enhanced, and you can use all the time. Maybe we'll call it brawl.
Not good enough? Then I guess we'll have to make all your powers cost zero endurance. Then you'll have fun. Except you might still get killed. So we'll make your health bar never drop below 5 HP. Except you might not be able to kill certain foes, like AVs and GMs. So we'll multiply the damage your attacks do by 100. Except you might not be able to kill a ton of enemies at once, and that would be fun. So we'll take all your powers away and give you [Kill Monsters], a power that with one click will kill everything on the map for you.
Now you can have fun, because the game's not too hard for you.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Endurance management isn't fun. This is true. It is a nuisance before stamina. This is by design with one of the reasons for its existence being that we feel more powerful later on in our characters' "lives."|
Originally Posted by Merry_Mint
To those who reply "build better":
I don't think the argument goes that endurance trouble is completely unavoidable, it's that it isn't a fun or interesting limitation on your character's abilities, and therefore not that fun to build around. I'm not advocating the abolition of endurance or anything like that - the game is balanced around it - but I do sympathize with his view. It seems rather intolerant and disrespectful to "refute" a risky viewpoint in two words, particularly when its author acknowledges the controversy of it and specifically requests thoughtful replies. |
Ultimo deserves neither respect nor tolerance. His posts are always full of lies and idiocy and this is why I also have him on ignore. He does not deserve thoughtful replies because he puts no thought into anything he posts. This has been and will forever be the case.
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| You tried soloing a lvl 1 FF/rad def before the I17 defender changes with no vet attacks ? |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Which is extremely strong evidence against the implied assertion that your level of experience with the game has translated into either a) a level of competency in playing the game comparable to other players of comparable play time, or b) a degree of acceptance of the game's intentional design limits.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Uberguy:
I'll admit I have made some concept builds, but I AM an experienced player. I HAVE taken advice and tried many of the suggestions offered. I've found them all to be inadequate. |
Other players have learned how to deal with these problems. That's where the suggestions people have given you (in various threads) come from - experience with what worked for them. Either you are not able to implement those suggestions mechanically because they don't work with your build goals (suggesting that those builds goals might be rather different than the norm) or your target for what's acceptable play is somewhere very different from that of the players offering the suggestions.
It looks to me like it's often the latter.
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| Also, I feel I should warn you against personal slights. You haven't made any directly, but you're treading the line. I hope we can keep things civil and hopefully productive. |
Every time the devs make a design decision, they have to weigh their goals against how they think players will perceive and react to it. There's a huge spectrum of response to every hurdle the devs put before the players - some people will look at a new hurdle as a challenge to be overcome, and some will look at it as a needless annoyance. Pre-20 endurance (and endurance management through the rest of the game) is one of those things that different players view differently. Could the devs change it, in any of various ways suggested in this thread? Absolutely. Should they change it? I think that's far less clear.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Without vet attacks because new players don't have them (and a lot more people only have 1), and they're the ones that are unlikely to continue with the game if extreme frustration sets in whether it be inability to kill stuff or end hell. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Nope. Haven't tried a petless mastermind either, or a "MAN" build. I do have a lvl 39 emp/psi that I can solo with thouigh.
Also, not directed to you personally Minotaur, but I always love when people say without this, or without that. Why wouldn't people use everything at their disposal? Hell, you don't even need vet powers anymore. You can't run a mish without 3 temp powers dropping on you these days... |
I only really noticed this because I happened to start a FF/rad just before I17 and thought "just how bad would this be if I didn't have the 3 vet attacks". I played an I1 troller, before vet attacks, containment etc and this was worse.
If you're a new player on your first toon, you may not have the cash for TOs let alone craftable temps in the first few levels.
And don't say "Well if you want to solo, don't play a FF/rad", that's fine to say to me, but if you bought this game because you played superhero P&P and you wanted to play your favourite toon Dr Roentgen, the powersets exist to make him and then you find he's basically no fun. All toons should be able to solo decently at very low levels and some basically can't.
As an aside vet rewards are the reason I don't start a second account. I don't want to be restricted to which toons are actually playable at low level, and don't want to have to PL toons with my main account. If you could transfer the vet rewards to a new account, I'd have one by now, as it is I buy slots, have filled up Victory with 36 and am getting that way on Justice.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Would I think would be great would to add an extra temp power(the recovery serum) to the lvl 5-9 bank mish. Keep it on the 10 minute cool down but it give a time limit like the jetpack instead of a set number of uses.
Either way I find teaming to solve most end woes at earlier levels.
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If we accept that there are some builds that absolutely require stamina (and I do as I've played some of them like a fire/storm controller heh) we have to then determine if that is a negative thing.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
The problem is that too much of that "good job" lies in making stamina universal. Without it, well, try an earth/SS tank with no stamina. Or a stone/SR brute. Or an Earth/Earth dominator. Oh sure you can do /EA or /Elec without stamina pretty easily. And most of the mid-range builds can be stamina free with a bit of effort. Some builds, you really can't. And the fact that some players can make stamina-free builds easily enough does not mean the majority of players can.
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Is it any different than an illusion controller or dominator requiring hasten if they want to have PA or domination up more consistently?
Is it any different than an MM that wants to tank requiring provoke?
Is it any different than a stone armor requiring teleport (or a ton of IO's) if they want to move at a reasonable rate?
Is it any different than a large number of builds that require weave (or manuevers) to hit softcap?
Having something be required to make it work isn't necessarily a bad thing. If everyone required stamina it would be, but they really don't. Nearly every build I make requires stamina, but I tend to solo a fair amount and I accept that environment has different build needs than when teaming.
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| Right now, the majority of players require stamina to have fun with a build. Right now, the vast majority of "help me with my build" posts include stamina. On nearly every build for nearly every AT. Look through the forums. I challenge anyone to find an AT forum where more posted builds are stamina free than have stamina. |
Stamina certainly unlocks a level of comfort that many can enjoy, but I'd argue that softcap def unlocks a bigger door to enjoyment.
To answer your question, most builds posted on the forums are based on solo'ing. If they were team based builds they would all "require" leadership.
Being impervious to endurance concerns is a unique ability found in limited sets, just like mez protection, or recharge protection, or outgoing mez effects, or damage boosting abilities, etc, etc. The game is designed so that a team can fill in for your individual weaknesses and make the sum of the whole greater than the individual parts. Right or wrong, they have decided endurance should be one of those factors. I'm personally glad that endurance is so easily overcome even from a solo perspective for the vast majority of builds, the same can't be said for mez protection, or recharge protection, to name a few examples.
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This may not prove the argument that you think it does. Consider the parallel argument that the ubiquitous use of Hasten (or other global recharge bonuses) suggests that the base recharge times of our powers are too long. |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
However, I lay out a counter challenge to you. I posit that the sheer weight of builds with stamina compared to builds without stamina is proof that the current system is borked. If you can find more builds that are stamina free than we can find with stamina, I'll agree that endurance costs are not too high in general.
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While that's possibly a logical argument, it's not the one that's usually presented for Hasten's common use. Instead, people point out that Hasten is often taken because the benefits of doing so are so high.
So applying that to Stamina, the alternative argument is not that people take Stamina because their base recovery is too low, or that their powers cost too much, but rather that the return on investment for taking Stamina is so good that a lot of players choose to take that route. Whether that means life without Stamina is inadequate is more of a "glass half full/empty" discussion. Most everyone likes to be able to fight longer and faster, so most people will consider more endurance to be better, but that fact alone doesn't make clear what level of endurance is objectively inadequate.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
new players don't have them
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Hell, you don't even need vet powers anymore. You can't run a mish without 3 temp powers dropping on you these days...
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I well understand the frustration of being able to unable to solo effectively. When I started this game, I built a pure support toon to help my regular team mates out for hazard zone hunting. Once they got to a lvl that they had stamina, and other ways to survive longer, they no longer needed my help, and considered my toon a xp leech. It was a hard lesson, but I learned it, and it didnt turn me off the game, just people. I never rolled another toon that I couldn't solo with.
That was before respec's, debt cap, temp powers, half mission debt, xp curve, endless brawl, IO's, mission bonus xp, inspiration combination, ED, free origin power, no debt before lvl 10, etc.
The Devs have made it very easy for a toon to level up to a point where you can slot SO's. Never mind stamina.
Hasten will usually make a good build better. Stamina makes many builds playable without taking the fun-diluting steps of frequent pauses between spawns or before major battles, or without planning ahead to have an adequate supply of blue inspirations / buffs, etc to make it through a particular sequence.
In general terms, the challenge is to throttle experience gain without throttling fun and driving away substantial numbers of novice and occasional players. My experiences earlier in my playing days in the gaming center would suggest that a *lot* of players over the years have given COH a look, concluded "This is @#%@#$$*^^ annoying, rather than fun", and moved on to other activities; endurance issues in lower levels have historically probably been a big part of why those who don't know the game very well end up quitting. I haven't seen a single argument in this thread about why that's a good thing to have happen.
I would say that the devs are probably doing quite a bit better at helping novice and occasional players decide they like the game than they used to do, given XP rebalancing, that 11% endurance discount (or thereabouts) that came out quite a while back, vet attack powers, and a variety of other steps.
If there was a way to "raise the floor" in character performance at lower levels, without undercutting the core function of endurance limits, that would probably be helpful for the long run health of the game.
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That the above represents the distinction between playable and not playable is a matter of opinion.
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Hasten will usually make a good build better. Stamina makes many builds playable without taking the fun-diluting steps of frequent pauses between spawns or before major battles, or without planning ahead to have an adequate supply of blue inspirations / buffs, etc to make it through a particular sequence.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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"decently" "can't"| All toons should be able to solo decently at very low levels and some basically can't. |
First word subjective. Second based on subjective opinion.
I already stated that I was able to solo an FF/Ene Def from 1 to 12 at what I considered a "decent" pace.
I found it "decent" in comparison to the other sucktacular for soloing archetypes/powersets.
Anything in this game CAN solo at the base difficulty without vet powers. I have incontrovertibly proven this to be a factual statement.
If people don't find a given combination from a given archetype "fun" to solo, perhaps they should choose an archetype\combo more suited to soloing.
There is a reason that I do not play defenders, or tanks or stalkers or controllers. I do not find them "fun." However, I also do not seek massive game-wide changes based on my opinion of those archetypes.
Such an action would be an ignorant waste of time for everyone.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I think the difference here is quantitative. Hasten is useful, but it is not by any means necessary to saturate your attack chain. If we had fewer powers available, or their recharge times were longer by enough that without Hasten we would find ourselves frequently without powers to activate, it might be a closer analogy. But while it's not at all difficult to create a saturated (albeit suboptimal) attack chain, it's significantly harder to create an attack chain that does not drain endurance faster than it recovers. In other words, while endurance and recharge are both limits on performance, endurance is by far the nearer limit on activity, and it's more immediately frustrating to be able to do nothing than it is to be doing less than you could. At least now you can still brawl at 0 end, but as anyone will tell you, brawl is no substitute for doing something useful...|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This may not prove the argument that you think it does. Consider the parallel argument that the ubiquitous use of Hasten (or other global recharge bonuses) suggests that the base recharge times of our powers are too long.
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At any rate, it's clearly far too late in the life cycle of this game to remove endurance as a mechanic, but I expect that if the CoH developers were to start work on a different game, they would not retain the endurance mechanic as it is, but rather rework it as a limiter on performance rather than activity - in other words, set the baseline on performance and activity at zero endurance consumption, and reserve endurance for abilities that boost performance above this baseline.
Lastly: as tedious as this game may be, it's not half as tedious as endlessly rehashing design decisions that won't be revisited in the lifetime of this game.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
After reading through most of the thread, I noticed one recent update to the game that has not been mentioned: The Endurance-free Brawl and Endurance-cost reduction of the origin power. These features provides low-level characters of all ATs an early attack chain with minimal endurance use. This can make a significant impact in early gameplay, particularly when AT damage modifiers have less of an impact and enemy hitpoints/resistances are mostly uniform.
In later gameplay, I think that the insistance upon endurance management is critical to balancing gameplay. Our most powerful abilities should be more taxing on our endurance as they require greater concentration/energy/effort/etc. to perform. While some individual powers may benefit from a review as to the endurance cost currently assigned versus the benefits of said power, endurance consumption as a concept is an integral part of gameplay. It forces players to careful consider the attributes of their powers and slot according to their goals. Sacrifices can be made to reduce endurance consumption rather than pursuing Stamina and increasing endurance recovery. Many players simply prefer to focus on other slotting goals such as max Damage, high Accuracy, and Recharge Reduction.
Such is the tradeoff. It's hard out here for a metahuman.
Veridian Dynamics. Mistakes. We all make them. But sometimes mistakes lead to great discoveries. Mistakes are how we learn and grow... so we can do amazing things.
When you think about it, shouldn't you be thanking us for making mistakes? Veridian Dynamics. We're sorry. You're welcome.
Personal slights won't change the fact that endurance costs are excessive.
Personal attacks, such as blatantly accusing me of lies, will be reported. Watch your step.