The game is tedious
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 24:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Build better.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Once my toons are 50 and IO'd out with sets, I generally do not have a problem. However, I will agree with you - especially for the first 30 levels or so. It does get old having to stop and rest between battles at times.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
Yeah, pretty much that's it--build better.
Go ahead and slot for end reduction in your attacks.
It's not really that big of an obstacle.
I don't have the same endurance issues, but honestly, I don't play pre-SO level much, if at all, anymore. It's hard to say alot more here w/out seeing the builds you are using but one thing I do find interesting is that you brough up tanks and defenders.
They have such poor DPE (combared to say blasters or tanks) that they tend to use up more endurance to do the same damage as blasters and scraps. It sucks for a defender to use a power that 2/3s (or less) as much damage as a blaster but has it cost the same amount of endurance.
Learn to build?
I've rarely, if ever, hit any endurance issues on my characters once they hit their mid 20's, and are properly slotted and enhanced.
For a game that depends for its financial well being, even its existence over the long run, on subscriptions from many who will always regard the game as "casual fun", making endurance management a difficult challenge in the lower levels is arguably a major blunder.
Gasping for endurance shouldn't be a constantly recurring state until a player engages in "book learning" (ie: reading the fora) to learn how to "build better", or until after stamina is taken and slotted up.
End is a constraint, like HP. I learned early on that slotting for end reduction cuts down on the rest period between spawns. Dont forget to eat your blue skittles either. You can combine 3 of any type to make one you need, so that helps as well.
Quote:
The sad thing about blasters, is they use all that endurance up on just damage, while having piddly secondary effects that wont help their survivabily at all.
| They(Defenders) have such poor DPE (combared to say blasters or tanks) that they tend to use up more endurance to do the same damage as blasters and scraps. It sucks for a defender to use a power that 2/3s (or less) as much damage as a blaster but has it cost the same amount of endurance |
Quote:
The first 22 levels of the game can be challenging on your endurance bar (I will admit), but this experience varies from AT and combination quite wildly. I have played toons from 1-20 that were gasping for air halfway thru every fight, while others seemed like they didnt need endurance at all.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels). I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun. (All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.) |
Here are a few things that I have used to help out;
Attacks always get 2 ACC first off. Even Training Origins will give you approx 15% more accuracy. Missing is REALLY bad in the early game (Not so great at any level really).
Take your small endurance cost powers and use them almost exclusively. You can take AoE powers and high cost attacks if you need to, but use them sparingly. Lets face it, if you think that you can AoE stuff prior to Stamina, you are fooling yourself.
Take more single target attacks, even pool attacks. A good attack chain makes life easier.
Don't take a lot of toggles pre-stamina. 1 or 2 at most depending on the character and their powers. This is one of the reasons I love the willpower set. WP Tankers can have better than stamina by level 12. But everyone else has to wait till 20. You may think your survival depends on toggles, but that is not correct. Just play a Blaster to 50 and you will find out what survival IS.
Conserving endurance is a game of precision. Know exactly how many "shots" it takes to get to the center of a tootsie... uhm, Villain. You will be surprised how much endurance you can waste using your big hitter on a sliver of health. Instead wait for the appropriate smaller attack to recharge. Same goes for using small attacks. If the Villain has more health than your small attack can finish, then wait for the bigger attack. Dont use 2 shots when 1 will do the job.
Finally, play different variations of your themes. Some combinations are simply late bloomers and no matter what you do, the road to Stamina is going to hurt. If the theme cannot be changed, then get on teams for your early levels. Nothing saves endurance as much as having other players around to assist in Villain clean-up.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Very few of my toons I've ever created have much in the way of endurance woes while teaming. And I generally select things that rank very high on the list of "end pigs" because they tend to have higher peak potential.
I know it might sound blasphemous to suggest more people team in a MMO, but the whole solo mentality and the need for every possible toon to excel while solo is flawed imo. Especially when you can make virtually any toon capable of solo'ing content with moderate build effort.
New players may struggle to unlock the secrets of how to solo sub-optimal sets in spectacular fashion. Those secrets being. 1. slot for end reduction. 2. Use powers like u r smrt. 3. Don't be afraid of frankenslotting. But those same new players should be encouraged to team as much as possible because at the heart of it, that is the best showcase of this game. And in teams endurance is rarely as much of a hindrance as it is solo.
katana/wp ftw!!!!111!1!1!onez
Quote:
Not mine.
|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast.
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Soloability is a big draw for me in this game. I dont like to burdan a team I am on with constant afk's because my son has decided to feed the pet fish to the toaster/etc. Appeasing my wife is another one. If I can't drop the game in an instant without letting the team down, then I can't team. Beside's it is unfair to the team.
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I know it might sound blasphemous to suggest more people team in a MMO, but the whole solo mentality and the need for every possible toon to excel while solo is flawed imo.
|
Quote:
That's what i don't get... you've never played games with mana? While playing a mage? Even when you take the "mana recovery" power, you can still get drained pretty fast and have to eat tons of blue potions. At least in CoH, you can eventually get past the need to carry 30+ blue potions.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use. Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. |
(If you really went tedious, try RO. You have to get to level 10 before getting your class. That takes about 2-3 hours the first time. "rest" in that game can be used at will, because you might need it between every fight. =P)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
Lucky for you there are hundreds of possible combinations that excel at solo'ing.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Soloability is a big draw for me in this game. I dont like to burdan a team I am on with constant afk's because my son has decided to feed the pet fish to the toaster/etc. Appeasing my wife is another one. If I can't drop the game in an instant without letting the team down, then I can't team. Beside's it is unfair to the team.
|
Don't misread what I said, I have no issue with people solo'ing or toons being designed to do it. I specifically said that I believe it is flawed to design this game so that every toon excels at solo'ing. Unfortunately, the devs seem to crumble to people that want their emp defender to be as competent as their scrapper while those same people fail to take in to account that said emp brings way more to a team.
Quote:
Wasn't trying to attack your point of view, just offering an alternate one as to why people like to solo. If I wanted to solo an emp, it would be paired with Illusion.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Lucky for you there are hundreds of possible combinations that excel at solo'ing.
Don't misread what I said, I have no issue with people solo'ing or toons being designed to do it. I specifically said that I believe it is flawed to design this game so that every toon excels at solo'ing. Unfortunately, the devs seem to crumble to people that want their emp defender to be as competent as their scrapper while those same people fail to take in to account that said emp brings way more to a team. |
I agree with you, not every toon should excel at soloing, just like not every toon should be capable of taking down a pylon, or gm.
People forget that when the Dev's say every toon "can" solo, they definately don't mean at +4/8.
Like others have said..got a build issue...build better. its the best answer for any and all build related issues
Quote:
No prob. Rereading I looked like I was being defensive, sorry about that, I didn't mean to be.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Wasn't trying to attack your point of view, just offering an alternate one as to why people like to solo. If I wanted to solo an emp, it would be paired with Illusion.
I agree with you, not every toon should excel at soloing, just like not every toon should be capable of taking down a pylon, or gm. People forget that when the Dev's say every toon "can" solo, they definately don't mean at +4/8. |
I very much agree that we often lose sight of what "solo" means. It sure as heck doesn't mean everyone should be killing AV's, or soloing 8 man spawns, or creaming the wall in Cim. But I can certainly understand how one can get a bit jealous when they hear about toons doing it. The thing we seem to often overlook is the investment that went in to that particular toon. There are only a few corner cases that can really do such activities without decent IO investment and even fewer still that can do all three examples and more even when built up. But almost anyone can if an emp hits them with fortitude+adrenaline boost.
What level are we talking about? Early levels, yes you can have some endurance issues. Once you get more slots and stamina, endurance shouldn't be much of an issues unless you're playing something that is really end heavy.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Quote:
I will say for this an all the "build better" posts, that while the OP may be all the way down in my league of bad builds (and if he is as bad as me, I really do pity him), there is a solid case to be made that end costs are a touch too high.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
What level are we talking about? Early levels, yes you can have some endurance issues. Once you get more slots and stamina, endurance shouldn't be much of an issues unless you're playing something that is really end heavy.
|
Not only is this an issue that comes up again and again, but there is a really huge number of players who think Stamina is not only a requirement, but the #1 priority at level 20.
Across all ATs and many, many builds stamina is fundamentally different from travel powers, leadership, medicine, presence, fighting. The fitness pool is nowhere near as optional as those others.
Now a total revamp is too much. But a small adjustment so that it's not just the builds with endurance management tools that a theoretical average player can build for sustainability without stamina, leave stamina for the real end hogs (stone, SS, etc).
And please note that I did mention that you can go without stamina and I did mention it is not required. I said players think it is required, I said a theoretical average player (note further that such average players are significantly less intelligent with their slotting than forumites).
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
What case is that? The case of "I don't want to worry about END so I shouldn't have to"?|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I will say for this an all the "build better" posts, that while the OP may be all the way down in my league of bad builds (and if he is as bad as me, I really do pity him), there is a solid case to be made that end costs are a touch too high.
|
Can you show, numerically, empirically and/or objectively, that END costs are too high?
Quote:
| Not only is this an issue that comes up again and again, |
Players bring it up because END limits how much they can do. Which it does. Because IT IS SUPPOSED TO.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Quote:
There are certainly things they could do to lower the burden of endurance in the early game. Another thread proposed a zero (or near zero) recharge on rest. I think that would be great. It would allow endurance to remain a constraint to combat, but not a major set back between fights.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I will say for this an all the "build better" posts, that while the OP may be all the way down in my league of bad builds (and if he is as bad as me, I really do pity him), there is a solid case to be made that end costs are a touch too high.
Not only is this an issue that comes up again and again, but there is a really huge number of players who think Stamina is not only a requirement, but the #1 priority at level 20. Across all ATs and many, many builds stamina is fundamentally different from travel powers, leadership, medicine, presence, fighting. The fitness pool is nowhere near as optional as those others. Now a total revamp is too much. But a small adjustment so that it's not just the builds with endurance management tools that a theoretical average player can build for sustainability without stamina, leave stamina for the real end hogs (stone, SS, etc). And please note that I did mention that you can go without stamina and I did mention it is not required. I said players think it is required, I said a theoretical average player (note further that such average players are significantly less intelligent with their slotting than forumites). |
I'm not convinced more is warranted, stamina really is an optional power if you are teaming. It is very nice, like hasten at that point, but it only really becomes "necessary" if you are solo'ing. And again, imo I don't think a team focused MMO should be actively encouraging solo'ing on par with teaming. Endurance is just one of those things that a team can really help facilitate, but is still quite easily built to be overcome while solo with one powerpool and slotting options.
For the benefit of posters here who might not be aware, Ultimo has a past history of ... builds that experienced players wouldn't advise to other players. I don't think that people need to build min/maxed characters to do well at this game at all - it's much too easy for that to be the case, but if you build or slot a really poorly optimized character, and/or don't use any of the strategies that benefit your end burn per XP spent, you're going to find this game a lot harder than you have to.
Based on past threads, I expect that we've got another example of those problems (sub-par build or tactics) going on here.
Do I think that lowbies run out of end, at least solo? Yep. And I don't find that especially entertaining. But I also find it easy to work past. Then again, I find it easy to level, so I don't find myself in that situation long. I also don't have a problem with the low levels being something we enjoy "overcoming". If it took a really long time I might feel differently, but it's never been easier to get to the 20s than it is today, and those levels open up all sorts of endurance management options.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Uberguy: They just GAVE us a 4 minute on/6 minute off +100% end recovery temp power. It's very common and very cheap. I think that's taken away just about the last excuse there is.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
Yes, in many ways you are correct and the devs know this and have been making things easier on end use all the time though getting to the point that you have no end woes is a long and expensive process.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, I've been away for a while, and I've been trying a number of other games. Today, I came back for a bit to see if I wanted to buy Gong Rogue, something I'd been looking forward to. It revealed something to me that I've said before many times.
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use. Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels). As a rule, it's more fun to be using your powers and fighting the enemy than it is to be standing around, often as a punching bag for the NPCs because you lack the energy to fight back. In no other game is this problem so pronounced. Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here. I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun. (All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.) |
2 accolades increase your max end (this increases your recovery) they are time consuming to get. 1 Accolade temporarily increases your recovery by 100%. It's only useable a small portion of the time since it's on a long recharge. It isn't easy or quick to get either.
IOs set bonuses can increase your recovery and your max end. They are not quick or easy to get.
Certain IOs (Miracle + and Numina +/+) drastically increase your recovery.
A vet temp power now exists that allows you to cast a pet that increases your defense and recovery. Time consuming to get though easy to use once you have it.
SG base empowerments that last for an hour exist. They are easy to come by and relatively cheap to use requiring only that you have access to an SG base that has them and the appropriate salvage bits to use.
The devs recently added Physical Perfection to a scrapper APP.
I17 brings a new temp power Recovery Serum.
The devs know that things cost too much end and that end management is not fun especially for those who aren't numerically inclined. They have added things to relieve this problem but the solutions aren't quick or easy to attain. This is by design.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Well, I've been away for a while, and I've been trying a number of other games. Today, I came back for a bit to see if I wanted to buy Gong Rogue, something I'd been looking forward to. It revealed something to me that I've said before many times.
This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use.
Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels).
As a rule, it's more fun to be using your powers and fighting the enemy than it is to be standing around, often as a punching bag for the NPCs because you lack the energy to fight back. In no other game is this problem so pronounced. Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here.
I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun.
(All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.)