(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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*shrug* My level 50 Tanker is "Statesman's Pal", saved his butt from Praetoria, and has otherwise had basically no interaction with him. There's not really any mention of him throughout the blueside content I've gone through (though I am far more familiar with redside than blue.)
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Yes, they do. At least, from what I've seen.
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How evil? Whahahahaha
That a good answer?
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Because that's the way heroes and villains work - villains are all about power - getting power, holding power, increasing their power, and, importantly, displaying their power - they're all about controlling, intimidating and dominating other people, either as their end goal, or as a way to their end goal.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
That's a stupid conclusion and a stupid rule. Heroes don't all have Statesman as a boss in any form. Why do villains have to have a boss but heroes don't?
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Villains are all about the last person standing - or at least, being so powerful that even if all the threats to your power aren't dead, you're too powerful now for them to trouble you.
As a villain, your fellow villains are rivals for power - and if you don't crush them, they'll crush you.
Villains are selfish, heroes are selfless - a hero doesn't look at another hero and see a threat, or someone they can control, or someone they can serve to gain enough power to eventually overthrow them - a hero doesn't want the people they protect to be scared of them and their power, and a hero doesn't expect to be rewarded for what they do - heroes do what they do because they have the power to help people.
Heroes want to preserve and protect, villains want to change and destroy - and from an MMO point of view, one of those mindsets is way easier to turn into a game than the other.
That's why you have Recluse as your boss - because there has to be a justification to the limit the game puts on your villain activity.
Now, the devs could have gone with an EVE style set up, and just had the Rogue Isles as territory and players could band together and seize, so there'd be constant warfare between the VGs trying to increase, gain or hold on to their power - but that would've required a very big emphasis on PvP, as well as making solo players and casual players less likely to enjoy it - so they went for a similar game set up to CoH, with Arachnos as reason players couldn't turn the Rogue Isles into insane free-for-all power grab.
And that's why Statesman isn't the "boss" blue side - becasue we don't need one - if you took out all the signature heores, and gave their TFs to non-super contacts, there'd be totally no difference to the game world - we'd still run the same missions - we'd help people, protect people, save people and so on.
But if you took Arachnos out of CoV, the red side game world would collapse - there's be thousands of villains with nothing holding them back from trying to seize power and dominate all the others.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Arachnos needs only be slightly stronger than other factions, not an overwhelming force and driving factor of all gameplay, to establish this effect. Nemesis does not bow to Recluse. Countess Crey does not bow to him. The Center does not bow to him. The Circle does not bow to him. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But if you took Arachnos out of CoV, the red side game world would collapse - there's be thousands of villains with nothing holding them back from trying to seize power and dominate all the others.
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There are a plethora of powerbases in the Isles completely divorced from Arachnos and Recluse. Arachnos does not have to direct so much of the action as they do to keep the Isles in some semblance of order.
Some zones - especially Nerva - very much reflect this. There's virtually no Arachnos presence in Nerva, and the gameplay there doesn't particularly suffer for it (it suffers mostly from being the Independence Port of Redside, and thus simply far too large a zone).
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Quite frankly, I think that is an unrealistic expectation to have. Whilst most console single player video games do make you, your actions and your decisions the singularly most important factor to a game, a massively multiplayer game must by definition cater to a majority of people. And a majority of people cannot, by definition, be treated as a singular individual. At the point even the perception that one person's experience is somehow 'more equal' than another's occurs, then the equality of that experience is diminished and people would have a right to complain.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You're missing the point. I don't WANT the game to be "guiding" me towards picking a faction. I don't want to "belong." I don't want to be "with" the main bad guys. Quite on the contrary. I want to BE the main bad guy. Not necessarily in terms of the main bad guy on the isles, but in terms of the main bad guy OF THE CURRENT STORY. Someone tries to talk down to me, I kneecap him. Someone tries to use me as a pawn, I double-cross him. Someone tries to recruit me, I take his followers for my own. That sort of line of thinking.
It's not a question of choices. I don't think it ever was. It's a question of general game attitude. The game regards us as pond scum who exist solely to serve other, better villains. We're constantly serving SOMEONE, fulfilling THEIR plans and forwarding THEIR ambitions. We are, in essence, feeding off the crumbs of the real villains. In this story, Recluse and his lieutenants are the antagonists. We're somewhere between Miniboss and Boss in Mook's Clothing. Servants of Arachnos. I don't want the story to expect me to side with Arachnos, but give me an out if I REALLY want to. I want the story to expect me to side WITH MYSELF. So when Arachnos play along, the story should have me playing nice with them. When Arachnos try to double-cross me or abuse me, I strike out against them. I want the game to treat ME as the protagonist and other people as "other people." As it stands right now, it feels almost like I fell over backwards into someone else's comic books and the writers are struggling to find things for me to do. Kind of like the Predators in most Aliens vs. Predator games. Basically, I don't specifically want real choice as long as the "but though must" path is crafted in such a way as to demonstrate that my character can think for himself, has ambitions of his own and won't put up with being stepped on. Because that's what most of the BIG villains in comic books and other media are. They're the ones who commit the evil, not the ones who take lip from punks on the street. Gimme' and office and have contacts come to ME. That might be a good first step. |
There is no MMO in my personal experience that puts you so directly in the protagonist's position. Lord of the Rings Online does not put you in the driving position in the overall narrative, of being part of the Fellowship of the Ring. Star Wars Galaxies does not put you in the position of being one of the Heroes of the Rebel Alliance or the best bounty hunter in the galaxy or the Emperor.
This also rings true for tabletop roleplaying games. One of the first rules I learned, and I learned it the hard way, was that there should always be someone with 'a bigger stick'. Players can, will, and consistently attempt to push the boundaries of authority in a game, and that point was something I addressed about the necessity of frameworks in both setting and atmosphere. If there was total independent freedom with a villain player being treated as the sole protagonist capable of defeating Lord Recluse, then there would be no consistent, overarching narrative and the point of the game would be lost.
Your point about the game's attitude to you is also arguable. The narrative states, quite clearly, that you are better than the regular villain, and Arachnos goes to the trouble to break you out of the Zig, enrols you in the Destined One project and even trains you. Your personal experience has you embittered towards how you see Arachnos, I think. It would be the same as arguing you should play City of Heroes so that you are the sole superhero that saves the world. NPC's serve an important function, both as guides to narrative and as base archetypes that help define the atmosphere. To provide an environment where that doesn't occur would undermine the game overall, I feel.
All of this being said, I do not disagree with your points on how the game is written and treats your character. Missions and general attitude could be rewritten to reflect the growing stature of your character. However, I stand by my statement regarding choice, or rather the illusion of free will. If what you are asked to do seems reasonable to your character, I think the overall structure of the game should by extension then be also reasonable.
As for being the sole independent villain who drives the narrative, I do not think that can nor should happen, regardless of the solo-friendly nature of the game.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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If you had, you'd know there's no subservience to Statesman |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Yes, they do. At least, from what I've seen.
Though they certainly have more independence than Villains do (Oh, cruelest of ironies!), every single Hero is someone that answered Statesman's spam email asking for help with the reconstruction effort. Not to mention the fact that Statesman is our Superman/CaptainAmerica/Positron, and that it's an inherent implication that we all hope to be as good as him someday. It's a more willing and loving subservience, but it's always been my perception that it exists. (Again: Haven't played that much Heroside compared to most of you) |
On the "Hero's Hero" arc, where you rescue Statesman from Tyrant, the storry summary finishes:
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| "Paragon City is a little brighter now, with Statesmen back among its people. There's no doubt that you, like Statesman, have earned a place among the city's brightest stars." |
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"Thank you, [character name]. I have been watching your career for some time. I'm not surprised you've come this far. Keep fighting the good fight." |
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| "He said to tell you that he was glad to see Paragon City had been in good hands while he was away. Statesman isn't careless with his praise; it seems pretty clear to me that he thinks the world of you." |
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Recluse is defeated, and his plans are in ruins. Honestly, I wish I had been the one to do it, but... that's pride talking. No, this is your day, this is your moment to shine! Look over this great city, and see what you have done today! Every person who lives in freedom from this day forward owes that freedom to your valor, your determination, and your heroism. Recluse may yet return, but you have shown the people of the world that they need no longer live in fear of his name. For when evil arises, it shall be confronted and defeated by the champions of this City of Heroes!" |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Utter nonsense. Ever heard of a stalemate? Nerva has virtually no Arachnos and it is a totally rogue zone where each neighborhood is independent.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But if you took Arachnos out of CoV, the red side game world would collapse - there's be thousands of villains with nothing holding them back from trying to seize power and dominate all the others.
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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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And what happens when you out-level Nerva? Where do you go, and what do you do with your increased power? And what's stopping you from starting to make a move to dominate all the other Villains in the Rogue Isles before one of them tries to seize power for themselves?
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Utter nonsense. Ever heard of a stalemate? Nerva has virtually no Arachnos and it is a totally rogue zone where each neighborhood is independent.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You head to St. Martial, where the power-bases are the Family, Johnny Sonata, and Arachnos. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And what happens when you out-level Nerva?
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There's no reason Grandville has to be written and designed like it is. There's no reason Arachnos has to be a major player in any given zone. They are, but not because the whole balance of the game depends on it.
It's largely because Jack Emmert knows about as much about making a good game as you do.
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
So, on a scale of 1 - 10, at what level of evil do you feel the Devs should average when writing stories?
1 - I'm a misunderstood hero! I save the world and wear mascara! Is that such a crime!? * * * 5 - Blowing up buildings for the lulz and other destructive selfishness. * * * * 10 - I want to slaughter everyone that doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes... and then everyone that does. Just curious. Have fun! |
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Yeah, of course there would. It'd be all the other villains! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But if you took Arachnos out of CoV, the red side game world would collapse - there's be thousands of villains with nothing holding them back from trying to seize power and dominate all the others.
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I run a Villain Group on Virtue. It's leadership are all people who would love to control the group for themselves. Each of them works to establish a faction with the lower ranking members sworn to them. The reason none of them can seize power? The rest wouldn't stand for it. They're essentially locked in a political stalemate. Each of them is powerful in their own right, each has legions of lackeys (who would each love to usurp their position), and thus when all of them have power, none of them do.
It is only on matters where enough of them can muster the support of their peers that they can, as an organization, get anything done.
And if they can't break the stalemate in their own group, they certainly cannot conquer the RI much less the world. If the Rogue Islands had no Arachnos, we'd see the situation that is expressed in my VG writ large: any villain who tried to take over would be knocked down by someone else. Anyone who built a big enough coalition to take over would be in danger of his supporters usurping him or the coalition fractioning and falling to infighting and anarchy.
Megalomaniacal villains don't, as a rule, get along well or easily and that fact alone would ensure none would take over.
Arachnos isn't necessary for Redside. Unlike others, however, I don't have a problem with Arachnos. I just don't feel it's REQUIRED.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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And how would the game show that? Like What sort of system could it use to tell players that although they'd hit 50, tehy still coundn't take over the Rogue Isles? And wouldn't that be exactly the same as the current CoV set up anyway?|
Originally Posted by Smurch
Yeah, of course there would. It'd be all the other villains!
I run a Villain Group on Virtue. It's leadership are all people who would love to control the group for themselves. Each of them works to establish a faction with the lower ranking members sworn to them. The reason none of them can seize power? The rest wouldn't stand for it. They're essentially locked in a political stalemate. Each of them is powerful in their own right, each has legions of lackeys (who would each love to usurp their position), and thus when all of them have power, none of them do. It is only on matters where enough of them can muster the support of their peers that they can, as an organization, get anything done. And if they can't break the stalemate in their own group, they certainly cannot conquer the RI much less the world. If the Rogue Islands had no Arachnos, we'd see the situation that is expressed in my VG writ large: any villain who tried to take over would be knocked down by someone else. Anyone who built a big enough coalition to take over would be in danger of his supporters usurping him or the coalition fractioning and falling to infighting and anarchy. |
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| Megalomaniacal villains don't, as a rule, get along well or easily and that fact alone would ensure none would take over. |
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| Arachnos isn't necessary for Redside. Unlike others, however, I don't have a problem with Arachnos. I just don't feel it's REQUIRED. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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"It's never been done before!" sounds more like a reason to try it than to avoid trying it.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Quite frankly, I think that is an unrealistic expectation to have. Whilst most console single player video games do make you, your actions and your decisions the singularly most important factor to a game, a massively multiplayer game must by definition cater to a majority of people. And a majority of people cannot, by definition, be treated as a singular individual. At the point even the perception that one person's experience is somehow 'more equal' than another's occurs, then the equality of that experience is diminished and people would have a right to complain.
There is no MMO in my personal experience that puts you so directly in the protagonist's position. Lord of the Rings Online does not put you in the driving position in the overall narrative, of being part of the Fellowship of the Ring. Star Wars Galaxies does not put you in the position of being one of the Heroes of the Rebel Alliance or the best bounty hunter in the galaxy or the Emperor. This also rings true for tabletop roleplaying games. One of the first rules I learned, and I learned it the hard way, was that there should always be someone with 'a bigger stick'. Players can, will, and consistently attempt to push the boundaries of authority in a game, and that point was something I addressed about the necessity of frameworks in both setting and atmosphere. If there was total independent freedom with a villain player being treated as the sole protagonist capable of defeating Lord Recluse, then there would be no consistent, overarching narrative and the point of the game would be lost. Your point about the game's attitude to you is also arguable. The narrative states, quite clearly, that you are better than the regular villain, and Arachnos goes to the trouble to break you out of the Zig, enrols you in the Destined One project and even trains you. Your personal experience has you embittered towards how you see Arachnos, I think. It would be the same as arguing you should play City of Heroes so that you are the sole superhero that saves the world. NPC's serve an important function, both as guides to narrative and as base archetypes that help define the atmosphere. To provide an environment where that doesn't occur would undermine the game overall, I feel. All of this being said, I do not disagree with your points on how the game is written and treats your character. Missions and general attitude could be rewritten to reflect the growing stature of your character. However, I stand by my statement regarding choice, or rather the illusion of free will. If what you are asked to do seems reasonable to your character, I think the overall structure of the game should by extension then be also reasonable. As for being the sole independent villain who drives the narrative, I do not think that can nor should happen, regardless of the solo-friendly nature of the game. S. |
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Why is this a cheat... Well, you can say villains need to be stronger than the heroes for the heroes' struggle to be meaningful, so OK. Villainous AVs are stronger than player heroes. But then we turn around and heroic Heroes are stronger than player villains, and then the truth reveals itself. It's not a question of thematics. NPCs are simply stronger than players. That is the DEFINITION of cheating. Whether it's necessary or not is a matter of debate, but in no way is this anything other than The Computer is a Cheating *******. I know it's fun times to patronise me, but let's try and be at least a little objective here.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You know, making an AV that can be a challenge to a full team of 8 players isn't really cheating - it's just sensible game design
And signature characters in TFs are an important way of making them more unique - Recluse seems more special when we have to do the STF to fight him - unless you just happen to be really lucky with a Safeguard mission |
That's not the point, though. That's semantics. The computer is a cheating ******* because the computer needs to cheat in order to provide a challenge. I get that. When you have eight heroes on one villain, he kind of NEEDS to cheat or it'd be a really boring fight. However, City of Heroes has proven to scale quite well with team size and difficulty settings. The computer needs to cheat, but it can cheat JUST ENOUGH to provide a challenge to any amount of people that might undertake a given task.
For instance:
People after the challenge can try Lord Recluse in Time After Time as an AV and have a big fight with him and his Bane Spiders. On the other hand, people like me can try Lord Recluse as an EB and have a much easier, solo fight. And I see no problem with either approach. Again, I am perfectly free to ignore Task Forces if I don't feel like being overshadowed. The very point of TFs is for them to be group affairs, not single-person ego trips. I know this coming in, so that's fine. Everything else, however, ought to scale down to me. And most everything actually does.
I can currently take on Recluse on both sides, I can take on the Statesman villain-side and I can rescue the Statesman hero-side. Now why can't we have more arcs like that?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Am I not explaining this clearly, or do I just suck?
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Dude, please re-read what you're responding to. Nowhere in there did I once mention OTHER PLAYERS. Why does everyone keep assuming I want to measure myself by other players? I don't. I want to measure myself by the narrative of the game. A majority of people can very much be treated like the protagonist. A majority of people ARE being treated like the protagonist RIGHT NOW! Just... Look at the missions in the game and tell me:|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Quite frankly, I think that is an unrealistic expectation to have. Whilst most console single player video games do make you, your actions and your decisions the singularly most important factor to a game, a massively multiplayer game must by definition cater to a majority of people. And a majority of people cannot, by definition, be treated as a singular individual. At the point even the perception that one person's experience is somehow 'more equal' than another's occurs, then the equality of that experience is diminished and people would have a right to complain.
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Who takes down Dr. Vahzilok?
Who stops a Malta plot to start WW3?
Who stops the Rikti from opening a stable portal to their home dimension?
Who stops the Nemesis from broadcasting his mind over the Rikti metal network?
Who puts Countess Crey behind bars?
Who prevents the Council from creating a Vampyr progenitor and implanting a Shadow Seed in the city?
Who prevents Wolfgang Ubelmann from going back in time to help the Nazi win WW2?
Who helps take down the 5th Column?
Who takes down Vanessa DeVore?
Who stops the Envoy of Shadows from making another deal with the Circle of Thorns?
Who stops the Banished Pantheon from trapping Tielleku, stealing her power and waking up Lughebu?
Who stops Terra from becoming a Devouring Earth breeder and flooding the world with monsters?
Who destroys the PsychoChronoMetron before it can be used to destroy causality?
Who does seemingly ANYTHING in this city?
Because the single answer to all of those questions is $me. So, please, stop trying to tell me how "a majority of people" can't all the protagonist in their own instanced stories. IT ALREADY HAPPENS! I just want more of it.
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| There is no MMO in my personal experience that puts you so directly in the protagonist's position. Lord of the Rings Online does not put you in the driving position in the overall narrative, of being part of the Fellowship of the Ring. Star Wars Galaxies does not put you in the position of being one of the Heroes of the Rebel Alliance or the best bounty hunter in the galaxy or the Emperor. |
City of Heroes suffers from no such baggage. There's no reason why the game can't say "Oh, hey! There's this uncharted island that's not on the map. Wanna' have an evil lair on it? There sure are a lot of uncharted islands around here, boy-howdy!" There's no reason why it can't say "Say, $name, your $group is really cool!" Sure, there are a zillion other groups, one per player, but as long as I don't hear about them in MY missions, then they may as well not exist. I'm not looking for recognition from other people. I'm looking for recognition from THE GAME. I don't care if other people never even hear about it.
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| This also rings true for tabletop roleplaying games. One of the first rules I learned, and I learned it the hard way, was that there should always be someone with 'a bigger stick'. Players can, will, and consistently attempt to push the boundaries of authority in a game, and that point was something I addressed about the necessity of frameworks in both setting and atmosphere. If there was total independent freedom with a villain player being treated as the sole protagonist capable of defeating Lord Recluse, then there would be no consistent, overarching narrative and the point of the game would be lost. |
Also, yet AGAIN, this is precisely what the game already does. YOU are the Destined One. YOU are the one who kills Lord Recluse in the future. YOU are the one who can scare him into leaving you alone. YOU are the one who matters. Yeah, you and the other eleventy billion players, but as long as the game doesn't bring them up, they may as well not exist. Whoever holds the mission at the moment is the protagonist. That's how it goes RIGHT NOW. And if this is not a problem RIGHT NOW, why is it a problem in theory?
And again, I'm not talking about changing the status quo. There are many, MANY ways to make a character the protagonist without upsetting the game's static world. It doesn't come down to technology or mechanics. It comes down to good old-fashioned decent writing and the ever-standby imagination. The game always boils down to "go to instance, kill stuff, click stuff, receive bacon." And that's fine. But WHY am I doing this?" Where am I going, what am I killing, what am I clicking, what am I achieving. All of this can be spun a LOT better than it is right now.
Take two instances. You go to a slum to beat poor people and break their garbage because some deadbeat loan shark said so, and in return you receive an insult to the face and a quarter flicked at your chest. Now consider the same mission, same parameters, different selection of enemies and location, different writing. You go to a high-tech military base to kill its commanders and wipe out their hard drives because the secret military organisation that owns it tried to blackmail you into doing their dirty work, and in return you receive a cash bounty, the contents of their hard drives and the satisfaction of having beaten them at their own game. What's so hard about THAT?
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| Your point about the game's attitude to you is also arguable. The narrative states, quite clearly, that you are better than the regular villain, and Arachnos goes to the trouble to break you out of the Zig, enrols you in the Destined One project and even trains you. Your personal experience has you embittered towards how you see Arachnos, I think. It would be the same as arguing you should play City of Heroes so that you are the sole superhero that saves the world. NPC's serve an important function, both as guides to narrative and as base archetypes that help define the atmosphere. To provide an environment where that doesn't occur would undermine the game overall, I feel. |
In City of Heroes, I'm not affiliated with anything at all, and only very loosely affiliated with the city in general. I gather my resources and borrow my facilities from a whole host of different sources, not placing me in the service of any one single provider. In City of Villains, it's the exact opposite. I could stick "Arachnos" at the start of practically everything in that game like Adam West sticks "Bat" in front of all of his items and I wouldn't be wrong by much. Arachnos trainers, Arachnos Quartermasters, Arachnos contacts, Arachnos Fateweavers, Arachnos Helicopters, Arachnos Forts, Arachnos Patrons, Arachnos Arachnos... Can I have something without Arachnos in it, please?
We already have bases. I've suggested the expansion of those bases to topside facilities that you do missions to expand and evolve. Why can't we focus more on those? Why does everything villain-side have to be Arachnos Arachnos Arachnos? The game's starting to sound like Shnitzel!
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| All of this being said, I do not disagree with your points on how the game is written and treats your character. Missions and general attitude could be rewritten to reflect the growing stature of your character. However, I stand by my statement regarding choice, or rather the illusion of free will. If what you are asked to do seems reasonable to your character, I think the overall structure of the game should by extension then be also reasonable. |
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| As for being the sole independent villain who drives the narrative, I do not think that can nor should happen, regardless of the solo-friendly nature of the game. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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We have to accept the game set up, yes. We don't have to like it, and it's not a good way to make a game, just because that's how it was made.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As for how independent a Villain can be in the game, I think you'll have to accept that you're always going to have Recluse as a boss in some form or another, because that's the way the game's been designed and set up.
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| But being an enforcer for him could be made into a better experience - like he trusts you enough to give you pretty much a free hand - so you can still be a bad *** villain without totally being your own boss. Like Darth Vader was just an enforcer for the Emperor, but he was still a totally bad *** villain, so maybe more freedom along that line might make red side players happier? |
Honestly, I think that just a change of tone for many of the contacts would do wonders, and it would be a lot easier. We would just like a little more:
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| Oh, hey! I know who YOU are! Listen, I got a line on something I just KNOW you're going to love. |
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| YOU THERE! MINION! FETCH ME MY COFFEE AND A BAGEL! |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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And after you save their *** from the Vahzilok in the back alleys of Cap... not even a little thank you, ingrates!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But don't you get all those things already in some form in CoV?
Like civilians running away from you on mayhem misisons, and missions where you actually get to murder people? Plus, I'm sure Longbow attack you for more than just your fashion sense |
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
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Ironically enough I know at least one player in game who rages about all the "epic" stuff being there as much as you do about a lack of it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
A majority of people ARE being treated like the protagonist RIGHT NOW! Just... Look at the missions in the game and tell me:
Who takes down Dr. Vahzilok? Who stops a Malta plot to start WW3? Who stops the Rikti from opening a stable portal to their home dimension? Who stops the Nemesis from broadcasting his mind over the Rikti metal network? Who puts Countess Crey behind bars? Who prevents the Council from creating a Vampyr progenitor and implanting a Shadow Seed in the city? Who prevents Wolfgang Ubelmann from going back in time to help the Nazi win WW2? Who helps take down the 5th Column? Who takes down Vanessa DeVore? Who stops the Envoy of Shadows from making another deal with the Circle of Thorns? Who stops the Banished Pantheon from trapping Tielleku, stealing her power and waking up Lughebu? Who stops Terra from becoming a Devouring Earth breeder and flooding the world with monsters? Who destroys the PsychoChronoMetron before it can be used to destroy causality? Who does seemingly ANYTHING in this city? Because the single answer to all of those questions is $me. So, please, stop trying to tell me how "a majority of people" can't all the protagonist in their own instanced stories. IT ALREADY HAPPENS! I just want more of it. |
Can't please them all, no matter what you do.
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Felt I should share this, since the idea came to me after thinking of this post...aaaaaand maybe because i've played Dungeon Keeper (1 and 2) lately.
Samuel Tow, others and myself has uttered the desire to be the protagonist in OUR own story. (I like the way you write Samuel 
)
To be the main villain in our story, not the canon story. I want to be the one who is respected, who is feared, who is known to get things done in the isles (when i'm playing villains and have atleast gotten a certain level of power).
My characters are not the evil for evils sake. They often come down as plotters, thieves and people who want power.
In my mind I would want them to have a secret lair, minions that follow them and some way through missions to help me get the feel that I'm a villain darnit, not somebody's disposable lacky (darn some of those ungrateful contacts).
So I was saying after thinking a little of bases, dungeon keeper and how I would want my villain to be... these thoughts showed up.
A villan who is going to be a protagonist, must have a base and minions do to guard the base and sometimes send them off to missions (to expand the influence of ..errr me).
So, how about if we (lets say at lvl 30) gets a new contact, for easy reference here just "Secret Lair contact".
In essence this contact is linked to the same mechanics as the Villaingroup register in that you can pay "rent" or as I would call it; Upkeep of materials in the base. (Rent implies that the base is on loan by Arachnos) Or for those players who want to be aligned to Arachnos, well the villaingroup register npc can use the same function as the "Secret Lair"-contact.
The Secret lair contact will have some (maybe more) functions.
Give out missions to recruit specialists (like researchers), missions to recruit minions that can help defend your base, pay upkeep/wages of said specialists/minions etc.
If the villain thought upon this issue in advanced my villain (if new) would have created a villain group at lvl 10 and been in prestige mode since then.
So we talk to this contact and it is evident that the character wants to help us, we are the boss he would be a servant like "Igor" or something.
(The base itself is the Base we find in the base editor, but with new changes.)
So the Secret Lair contact knowing your plans, knows of a few researchers (Like we had in the great storyarc here in Issue 17) that could be of use to us/me. You go in there and you do the mission/arc and you get them.
Depending if your a Technology/science or magic inclined it these researchers would need either a science lab or a library/workshop.
For the researchers I did think upon a little research system, that allows you to allocate either prestige (earned or already earned) and/or salvage to the research. Through the research you get access to various base items, tech-tree for upgrading minions and inventions/experiments/summonings of
new unique kinds of minions.
After you have, lets say, built a barrack the secret lair contact tells you that he/she knows about some people that could be recruited into guards. So off you go again to recruit some minions in a mission/arc.
When this is done you get the possibility to design your human minions uniform.
Upgrades can be done through research for different kind of weapons etc. And we will see from time to time a guard walking around or standing still in the base (or more of them).
Then lets say our villain wants to get some new types of creatures/robots/summonable beings into the base as part of his/her minion group.
The researchers can start making experiments in the "mad science-lab", Make parts in the workshop or begin summoning creatures in the magic room (lets just call it summoning room or Alchemy lab).
After a while you will get reports that the researcher/mages have managed to create a human hybrid of some sort (mutant) like werewolf, zombie, human with powers of devs choice or summoned some creatures from afar or made golems.
These will use the skin of already existing creatures, but they will from now on have the emblem of your group. Human formed special minions would need a usage of maybe a special new uniform?
Alright, so far we have the base and minions. A little thing I (and i'm not the only one) is a little tired of is to be pot-shotted by the same enemy group that i'm doing missions for while on the way to the mission. So why not use simply the clockwork preatorean mode (They will not attack unless fired upon first by the player) on villain groups.
Since you are a villain and you have your own group it is inevitable that your goals will clash with someone elses.
The idea of faction points (might be a bad idea) with each faction in the game could help you as leader of a villain group to find out who is your enemy and who is ... groups with same interests with you.
But we got a base and minions. Our group needs to be seen doing things, so lets say we got a mission computer in the base (after some time) and through it we can get missions/arcs themed for being a villain. Steal things to create better things ourselves, stop a rival group from encroching on our "land" (NOT that this would be seen in the gameworld like the 5'th vs Council). All in all missions to help give us the player the feel that we are the villains, the main villains.
Add in various types of generic heros that will try to twart us (could even use our own character list so we fight our own hero) etc.
But that we also have a kind of "alarm", read baseraid.
If villains are going to have this ability though then for fairness sake the base must be saved by the game before every raid so that it will revert to how it was after the raid. (villains/heroes destroying the nice buildings you've erected urk)
So lets have a minigame. Lets say at this point that I as leader has recruited 9 other players to my group. We will be invaded by a herogroup of 8. Now this is ok, cause 4 of the players in the group could not attend the raid. Sooo the game will simply insert two of the not online villains into the base.
The heroes are invading and they do battle with the minions (who raises the alarm) one of the fellow villains might come and do battle (and maybe beat or be beaten) by the heroes. "I" as the main leader will be placed in the center of the base (well control room in anycase). Heroes win if they find and beat the villain leader. Villains win if they defeat the heroes.
Oh yes.. and heroes gets xp and drops from the villain minions and players. To compensate the villains would require maybe a boost in research, new item, xp bonus at the end if winning...
This part of the idea is a little fuzzy though... 
This would be what I would look for in City of Villains
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
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Quote:
Thank you |
Originally Posted by Lady Arete
Samuel Tow, others and myself has uttered the desire to be the protagonist in OUR own story. (I like the way you write Samuel
) |
You know, reading about your idea reminds me of something I played recently - Assassin's Creed 2, more specifically the Villa Monteriggioni. Breaking tradition with the original, Assassin's Creed 2 protagonist Enzio gets a villa that he can walk around and that he can upgrade for benefits that are useful, but not exactly gamebreaking. Unlike our bases, Enzio doesn't get to pick how much of what to buy and where to place it. He basically has a model of the villa set up where he can basically upgrade what's already on there. And speaking of this, you know what else I'm reminded of?
Heroes of Might and Magic. Each "town" in Heroes of Might and Magic, and this is a feature present in all of them, is basically one pre-fab template that starts out with nothing but a leader's hut and gets slowly upgraded into magnificence, one building at a time. You don't really get to plan or design the city, you get to upgrade it.
Why bring this up? Well, the one line of text that I constantly throw around in regard to bases is "like the costume editor," in that our bases are nothing of the sort, despite apparently having been originally designed to be that. While I respect the massive freedom of expression of bases, there is a certain point beyond which customization becomes less a feature and more a hindrance, and that point is FAR shorter of placing every individual floor tile, wall lamp and ceiling vent by hand on a fine grid. When designing character costumes, we don't pick the length of our sleeves in millimetres, we don't don't have to align and centre out chest emblems, we don't pick the angle or our sunglasses in radians and we don't choose the colour of our tights from among 2^32 individual RGB combinations (more like 2^24, but anyway).
I've been over this before in a variety of situations, but my ideal kind of base customization implementation would be something with a LOT more structure to it. Less a blank, empty room with carte blanche to do go wild and have fun and more collection of pre-defined frameworks with specific items that can be tweaked about them. I've spoken about this in the form of an RTS-style above-ground compound editor where you put down buildings and roads but don't fiddle with the exact alignment of the vials on the counter in one room of the huge science lab. I can also see an underground Dungeon Keeper style "hollowing out" method of construction that gave us more of a "theme hospital" take on rooms, vs. the 3DS Max style the current editor gives us.
The reason I'm talking about this, in a roundabout way, is that if we want to have bases mean more and be bigger part of the game, we need to involve EVERYONE into using and editing them, and with the current editor that's just not possible. It's not even about Prestige costs, builder privileges or shared space. It's a question of an EXTREMELY hostile editor that far too many people can't be arsed to use. There are comparatively far fewer people who couldn't be arsed to make anything of the costume editor, in part because that comes with a Random button, in part because it comes with ready-made theme sets, in part because you can just scroll through the menus and still come up with SOMETHING within 15 minutes at most. So if we're going to lean on bases as a more important aspect of gameplay, we need to lower the bar to making, having and using one.
As for myself, I'm not even that keen on bases having a POINT. Costumes rarely do, yet that doesn't stop people from enjoying them. Instead, I'd like to see the point of such bases being the making of them much less so than the using of them. Maybe I'm weird, but the only thing I ever did with my Legos when I was a kid was to construct them, then take them apart and start over. They were pretty poor as actual toys. So, with this in mind, I'd like to restate my idea of how to make bases.
Going with the RTS style construction method, I'd put a series of missions staggered throughout the level ranges that unlocked more things for your base as you levelled up. First few missions would be about actually GETTING the plot, the next few about laying down a few buildings, then ext few about expanding it, then about clearing up problems in the area, then go from there. I have images of the old Settlers 2 game when I talk about this.
Basically, if I can focus on building up my estate, populating it with NPC guards, buying science labs, weapon labs and so on and so forth, then I can very easily deal with the rest of the game truing to paint me as a deadbeat loser, because either I won't do those missions, or I'll pretend they didn't happen and focus my attention on my own thing.
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Just as a minor footnote, I feel that making bases simpler could open the door to a variety of themes, such as:
Standard volcano island compound
Standard Dungeon Keeper underground base
Underwater base with lots of windows
Oil rig base
Mountaintop base
Skyscraper penthouse base
City block base (say, like military bases in Prototype)
These can vary in scale, and I have no ptoblem with a volcano island base being much larger with larger structures, whereas a penthouse base (like the kingpin's) being just a few storeys of rooms and elevators. Point is, let me focus on this if I choose and I'll stop ******** about how the story is railroading me and the NPCs cheat.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam just won the thread, as far as I'm concerned.
The heavy handedness of Arachnos is pretty much one of the reasons why more folks don't play villainside. Also the VEAT arc once again pigeonholes you into Arachnos and the silly DESTINED ONES RP setting. Story is pretty much the one of the main advantages that the EATs have over the VEATs.
Also when they were first developing the Barracuda SF MANY people who played it in beta complained LOUDLY that once again they were being treated like lackies in arachnos. So loudly that the story was changed to make you an equal to the main villain players in it (trying not to spoil it for those who still haven't played it. )
I'm sorry but other than it being what Jack Emmert wanted, there is absolutely NO REASON why Arachnos (and Longbow for that matter) has to dominate all content redside.
Also, another point: Heroes do nothing but get to level 41 to unlock their later level powers. No silly rp, no silly person to learn them from, nada.
I'm still wondering why villanside doesn't work like this.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Honestly, I think that just a change of tone for many of the contacts would do wonders, and it would be a lot easier. We would just like a little more:
Quote:
Oh, hey! I know who YOU are! Listen, I got a line on something I just KNOW you're going to love.
and a little less:
Quote:
YOU THERE! MINION! FETCH ME MY COFFEE AND A BAGEL!
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I was wrong, the ABOVE from M_I_Abrahms wins the thread.
Funny enough, THIS was the main objection about the FIRST version of the Barracuda SF, and was subsequently changed (contact text RE-WRITTEN) when beta testers complained about it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Samuel,
You clearly have some very strong and very clear opinions about this topic, so this will be my last post for no other reason than to agree to disagree with you. I will do my best to respond to your points and then politely withdraw.
The point I had made and will continue to make is that this is a game for many many players and therefore the experience needs to be universally appealing (as such things can be) for the majority of players. Your personal experience means as much to the devs as it would for any other player, so noone can realistically expect that we are going to get an experience with our characters that are more directly meaningful to us. The recent villain arcs are proof to me that they are sufficiently written to have meaning to us should we choose to invest ourselves in them, just like any other story arc in the game.
I feel that your point is that because of primarily how City of Villains is written, there should be some major rewrite of missions in the game, and I did in fact agree with you and also agreed that a secondary faction as suggested by someone else to be led by the mercenaries.
As far as baggage is concerned, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. CoH is known to write from a story bible which is a staple of any television show and would doubtless be necessary to continue a meta-narrative of the game's story. We have the Rikti, Coming Storm, Praetoria and potentially Incarnate meta-stories coming into play, and unlike comic books that can write a singular issue to explain them away, an MMO has fixed resources in play that aren't as easily erased. Examples abound in the game; the unfinished 'deconstruction' of the War Walls, the Coralax, any number of NPC groups.
All of these things are commitments by the developer team that would need serious consideration as I understand it to change or remove entirely, just as it would to add anything. The recognition you'd want would to be just be a simple case of writing (as I believe you yourself have said) and anything else would have to again be a commitment of resources.
I didn't quote you regarding 'total independent freedom', nor do I imply you did. I apologise if that was the case.
Seeing as for the most part there is a reason to disagree from the rest of your post, I think I might leave it there and respectfully agree to disagree with you.
My sincere apologies if anything I said was considered inflammatory, miscontrued, or misunderstood.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Quote:
Having fiddled with the base editor enough to put together a simple functional base, I agree with you 100%: base building is simply too complex and fiddly for the average player, and for too little benefit. But having seen the fantastic, colossal bases that some of the base-building community have put together with the current free-form functionality, I have to note that simplifying the base editor, especially after the many issues that bases have been neglected, would be reacted to with about the level of warmth that PvPers had for Issue 13. There would be wrath, and it would not be entirely unjustified.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[...] if we want to have bases mean more and be bigger part of the game, we need to involve EVERYONE into using and editing them, and with the current editor that's just not possible.
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If the devs did dedicate some time and effort to bases, I would want to see a simplified version of the editor available, one that creates pre-decorated and pre-functionalized "macro" rooms. Pick a theme, pick colors, place room, control and power are handled automatically, you get a functional, well-decorated base room. However, it would be downright rude to turn to the base builders after 10 issues of not prioritizing bases and give them something they never asked for in any of their polite requests and instead take away all the functionality they enjoyed. So the fiddly editor really ought to stay, if at all possible.
@SPTrashcan
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I think it would be more accurate to say that heroes have greater unity of purpose, and because that purpose is consistent with Statesman's he does not need to be the boss of us. He simply needs to say, "this needs doing", and heroes will naturally agree because they agree with his premises.
The defining feature of villains is most definitely not unity of purpose. In fact, it is certainty of divergent purpose. Because the villain does not agree with society about what to do and how to do it, he comes in conflict with the heroes who protect social order.
This is not inconsistent with Recluse being the powerful dictator of the Rogue Isles and leader of Arachnos. I don't expect that any player hero will supplant him in either role, and certainly a level 1 villain would not be wise to defy him directly. However, that does not mean that a villain cannot have a purpose orthogonal or even opposed to that of Arachnos. While being a hero means agreeing at least on basic principles with other heroes, being a villain does not mean agreeing with other villains and wishing to aid them.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs