(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?

Pfft, I lead my own faction. We're called the Supreme Society, and we're a bunch of comic book supervillains out to rule the world.

Most of us have proven ourselves greater than Recluse in single combat, and we as a whole have trounced the Freedom Phalanx multiple times.

And that's fine - but for the thousands and thousands of other players, removing Recluse and the Freedom Phalanx from the game could be a problem

Why not? PvE is already like that hero-side. We're all equal, but that doesn't stop me from saving the world from everything you can think of, and no-one ever seems to wonder why it has to be ME and not one of the bazillion other heroes. Why can't everyone get a shot at conquiring some unnamed instanced island country? Sure, we'll all still be equal and no-one truly unique, but that doesn't matter because I can pretend the other people don't exist. I don't team with them, so they may as well not. But I can't pretend self-insertion persona Recluse doesn't exist because the narrative rubs him in my face all the time.

It's not a question of mechanical dependence on other players, it's a question of narrative dependence on established characters. I don't mind the game system and team requirements as they are now. They're not ideal, but I wouldn't campaign to change them. But what's wrong with giving me my own personal faction of goons that wear uniforms I designed for them and can occasionally be seen hanging about or occasionally even going out to do missions that I don't take part in?

Moreover, instead of trying to suck up to Recluse, why can't I be the big guy people suck up to? Say a new upstart villain comes up to me and says "Grumpy Santa! You're the man! I want to be just like you! And to prove I'm useful to you, here's this bit of information I beat up a hundred Skulls to get for you!" and then I'll be like "OK, I'll go have a look at this information that's clearly too big for you to handle. Why don't you stay here and shine my shoes until I get back, and maybe I'll give you a uniform and a bunk bed if I feel like it." It doesn't have to amount to anything. I just want my contacts to be nicer to me, or if they HAVE to be mean, I want the ability to be mean to them in return.

Actually, they can, because it's a question of narrative. Venture would probably stomp on my head for saying this, but I'd be perfectly happy to do fed-ex missions, kill-all missions, missions in faraway zones and so on and so forth if the narrative of the game just stroked my ego a bit more. The game currently treats villains like dirt. It's like it's actively trying to make me hate playing my characters because they're all so miserable. Never any ambition of their own, never any real villainy. Just heavy lifting for bigger villains.

It's not that hard to write missions that have the player as the sole antagonist. It's a question of writing. You don't need new mechanics, you don't need a new game. You just need to sit down and write your text to suggest the player is taking these decisions, himself. As long as the path of action makes sense and doesn't do anything too questionable, most people will be able to pretend they're making the choices.

"Able to" is not the same as "will." Honestly, I wouldn't bother. The Rogue Isles are a dump, and Recluse is squarely to blame. I don't WANT his failure. I don't WANT to waste my time fixing his mistakes. Not, more specifically, when I can be building my own version of New Latveria that's actually done right.

In fact, right at the end of the level range, Time After Time PROVES that the player character is stronger than Lord Recluse by pitting said character against Recluse. And even though Recluse cheats by bringing in reinforcements, all three of my villains kicked his *** and rubbed that future face plate in his face. He always tries to spin it, but the message is clear - Recluse does NOT mess with you, or THIS happens. Capiche?

And that's GREAT! Why can't we have more arcs like that? Why can't we have one with Daos, or Hardcase, or Westin Phipps? Why am I wasting my time bringing my contacts success and greatness when I can be doing something much more useful, like ruining their lives and benefiting myself. I mean, Willy Wheeler takes one for the team and I'm none too sad to see the little weasel go. That's a good place to feel like a big villain. A contact who's a pathetic wimp who makes your villain look much cooler by comparison is the perfect fit.

So give me an NPC faction of my own. Why is that unthinkable?

Yeah, no offense GG, but go to hell. The game does NOT have to be designed so that the NPCs are the bosses and the players are the workers. This is actually provable via one look at the Mission Architect. Just because you say it does not make it so.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Spotlight-stealing jerks, the both of them. The game would be better without them.

Hopefully the new Incarnate system will do something to remove those two from their unearned pedestals.

Our base is a large part of why I have a feeling of the Supreme Society being an organisation at least on par, if not greater, than Arachnos or the other villain groups in the Isles. Without the base, I'm not sure I'd get the same sense of greatness.

They'll still be the same, and still be on the forum banner, looking down on you from on high
They're the face of the game, so you're always going to see them somewhere.
But if you really dislike them that much, then I suggest you only play blue side - the way morality works means that Statesman is way less of an in-game presence that Recluse

Which is odd, as the vocal forum community has even turned on Statesman at this point. Those that care enough to post wish he'd just be downed, but there's no surgically sound way to excise the malignancy.

Those people are mostly the ones who can't, or won't, separate the character from the developer

Statesman's presence in the game is so small that it's quite easy to totally miss him.

True enough, but we're also a community that shapes the game. Less like artists to clay and more like stones in water, but still.

As a hardcore villain I have never seen him in game. Ever.

You've never done the LRSF or been to RV?

But you're already there - you're an Arachnos chauffeur

Thanks for reminding me. When I said that defeating Lord Recluse left you with no path forward, I was in error. It's actually worse than that. Now that you've beaten him, he entrusts you with your greatest mission: defeat Statesman and the Freedom Phalanx, his sworn enemy and not yours. Until this point, Statesman and the Freedom Phalanx have done nothing to you personally. Oh, you may have gone after a couple of them for a bounty or because they got in the way of one of your missions, but there's no particular grudge. They're not coming after you. They're not hatching a plan to invade the Rogue Isles. They're not even in charge of Longbow - that's Ms. Liberty's business. There is no reason for you to fight them, except that they're there and Recluse hates them and he wants you to.

That's dumb.

You'd be amazed how little of this game I've explored. Remember when I told you the other day that it's "excessive" if I play five hours a week?

He's probably just trying to show you what his hobbies and interests are, so the two of you can get to know each other better and maybe take your realtionship to the next level.

Then you need to explore more - ther are even new badges in I17 just for doing that

That doesn't sound that villainous - like genuine heroes would also try and take down a corrupt hero too.

Yeah, ain't gonna happen. This is Golden Girl after all, who won't do anything as evil as not tipping at a restaurant.

Then quite hating on him if he's irrelevant

You know I wonder if you're really going to enjoy GR as much as you think.

The last interview with War Witch suggests that the two sides in Preatoria are more about shades of gray than black and white. Will you stop playing an arc if it has your 'hero' Preatorian help to commit an 'unspeakable' act?

As to the original question by the OP. This really is very much a matter of writing and presentation. There have also been a lot of good replies here already.

Even so, I would have liked to see villains have personal strongholds and some kind of system for measuring their influence in the Rogue Isles. Like doing missions for contacts will give you villainous control points that you can use to undertake various schemes from building up your personal base of operations, to major assaults on Paragon City. Even having a kind of RTS system where you set up base defenses to repel invasions from heroes similar to Dungeon Keeper.

In the end...COV is a bit too much like COH and that is ironically its greatest weakness. It didn't need to be. It could have been something unique. I suspect that if they had taken steps to make it that way, then people would be more interested in it. Instead, people look at COV and go, well I can do this stuff on blueside and it's prettier and go play on blueside.

Redside really needs some attention and work. Not because it's broken...but because it needs to set itself apart from COH and be more unique apart from ATs(which will be a non-issue soon) and art style(which seems to be the thing that's stuck in everyone's craw).

First, you could fix a big kludge in GR at the same time by adding a way to gain patron pools with no patron. There could be some other story arc, accessible to both heroes and villains, that unlocks them, so that the nonsense of having your access to pools change if you switch goes away.

The only powers that are specifically Arachnos related are the Fortunata, Mu, Bot, Maces, and Shields.

The Maces are simple. Just add more weapons to customize and it can be any type of mace.

Shelds could either be power stolen from patrons during the unlocking arc, or just not use symbols of patrons.

The soldiers could be defectors who join you after the unlocking arc?

You could get some non-Arachnos content at RWZ, co-op Shadow Shard (please) or a new zone of the Rogue Isles with incarnate-level content. That could be where you go after defeating them.

You can actually see a tolerable version of him in Mender Silos' villain arc. He scales down to EB there, and he spawns player level, so it's a good place to take him on without having to beat the game at its own game. Not like Statesman the ARCHVILLAIN in To Save a Hero, where spawns as a level 54 Archvillain and proceeds to hit people for 5000 hit points per punch. Jack's subtle way of reminding us that the Statesman is and always will be better than us.

That's I1, though. In I11, you can slap the guy around on your own, which shows me, at least, that the development team is leaning our way, at least a bit. The Statesman is still tough as nails and he still cheats, but he's beatable with enough bravado. And that, really, is all I can ask for.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Speaking for myself, no I have not. Nor do I intend to. Nor do I see a reason to even care.

High-level super-task-forces don't interest me. They're just a case of the game rubbing signature characters in my face and trying to convince me they're so much better than me by cheating and giving them stupid amount of spare stats. There's a reason I almost never do TFs and SFs. I prefer to play the parts of the game where I can pretend I'm the big bad and my dad can beat up your dad. It's not the entire game, true, but if I pretend the rest doesn't exist hard enough, it actually kind of doesn't.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.