(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?

How evil would my villain be?
Its not the evil thing my villains strive for, its the self-interest of villainy. Not evil for its own sake, but how could my villain gain on anything. So to OP, my villains would be around 3-4.
Villanious though... 1-10 with 10 taking over the world, the multi-verse with an ego that could hold a universe... about 6.

As for the evil/villain thing, I agree with Sam's post nr #31. He pretty much summed up what i'm looking for on villain side.
I want to be the protagonist, the strong, (later by another one) the awesome one who people look up to, instead of "I'm the best, back in line you slimeball before i kill you" -look by "contacts" that we usually get.

Thats why i'm getting my hopes up for GR. If the story arcs are of same quality as both (hero and villain) arcs in Dark Mirror... then i say yummy.

I love Vernon Von Gruns arcs, cause as he has been mentioned, well he is the man with the plan, BUT he has the mad science thing and he is utterly dependant upon you. "Laugh with me" is one of his comments and it gives me a smile. In the arc, you are the awesome, the villain.

So Devs... please more Let us be the protagonist, the mastermind, the one that others fear, not the lacky that is always disposable.

I suppose though that we can't get something like Dungeon keeper for villains.... err my mind is drifting.
I want the secret lair in or not in a volcano, the lacky's of my own to guard the place and do my bidding. I want to build said theme up so that as we get up the levels, we have our secret lair, the lacky's, the oppertunities (say mission computer), the invasions of our lair (mission computer or alarm), the various politicing with governments or emneties of rival villain groups. The missions we send our our lackys for and they sometimes get beaten the tar out of heroes. Even a villain group or hero group that sees you as their rival nr 1.
Please more villain content and arcs etc like Magneto, dr doom etc (but where we are the likeness of said names) that would be villainious to me instead of... "meh, just a lacky, the brute on the street that is disposable"

Or Sam, let them get the non-aggro like thing which the Preatorean clockwork gets. They wont attack you, but if you attack them, they will fight you. (As we saw and heard on the videos)

Edit: Heh two minds, one thought BrandX

Doh! The Clockwork were said to do this, yeah

So, why not? Let's have Arachnos soldiers do the same. They'll hang out on their posts and mind their own business, but if you mess with them, walk by with a damage aura or your pets on aggressive, they WILL try to mess you up. I still feel they ought to attack if you walk up to them, as well, just because they're jerkasses like that, but it'd fit.

Let's roll with that, though. What other bad guys can we do the same for? What other bad guys wouldn't be openly aggressive unless provoked? Crey agents, maybe? I mean, they're trying to keep a believable front, and they are NOT believable at all when they attack you on sight. Especially when they post anti-hero snipers on the rooftops. How about the Family? We all know they're dirty, but they still try to act like legit businessmen. I mean, sure, if they have a guy in cement shoes, they're gonna' wanna' kill you for seeing it, but if they're just hanging on a street corner, why would they shoot at you for no reason?

Who else could we do this for? How about a Borg-style monster group that will not even acknowledge you exist if you don't bother them? Would the Devouring Earth work? I mean, they have big plans for the city, but would they stop to chase every passer-by? How about Malta? For a clandestine secret organisation, they sure do spend a lot of time loitering around parks taking pot-shots at passing heroes. Why are there Malta in the overworld at all, in fact? Wouldn't they be more mysterious if you never even knew they existed unless you actually uncovered their plots? Remember, guys - the world at large still doesn't know the Malta exist. They're not "obvious" bad guys.

What else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The original set of contacts was organized around origins / mob types, and the makers of COV more or less stuck with that formula; it was probably a constraint handed to them.

The COV contact list has a fair amount of variety in the kinds of contacts, and for the most part I like the contacts, the variety they represent, and the missions they offer up.

- Diviner Maros gets players involved in a kind of "destiny" arc, where he serves as a guide or interpreter of forces not really under his own control. You're not really a lackey in that arc; you're just reacting to a script driven by something that Maros himself probably doesn't fully understand.

- Darla Mavis needs you as well because she's really "lost it" because of others' actions, and she's clearly still angry and bitter about that. She treats the world pretty much like she treats you. You're a contractor / mercenary when working with her, and not a lackey.

- Timothy Raymond is on a quest to sort out his past and heal his damaged psyche, and you get recruited into helping him. Its not really clear that he's evil so much as he is permanently and deeply injured, in the end. My characters' motivations for helping this lost soul are not usually all that clear to me.

- Shadowy Figure is a mercenary and he works with you because you profit and he profits. He's not so much your contact as you're one of his (probably many) contacts. The motivation for working with this contact is clear, but the degree of fit with this contact's motivations and that of each of my characters varies quite a bit.

- Technician Naylor finds himself reacting to the choices of other NPCs. He's not as smarmy as Vernon (who I like very much as a contact; Vernon is funny and fun). But Naylor clearly needs your character more than you really need him.

- The Phipps arc gets done by default, mostly because the exterminator's arc is a pain in an awkward place when you're in the low 40s, with those hunts. I'm not particularly thrilled with Phipps' storyline or with Phipps, though. Phipps' arcs feel petty and mean, like Phipps himself.

- I don't care as much for the Abyss arc, or the Daos arc, or the patron arcs, for reasons that others have mentioned. I'm level 40+ at that point, and still being treated as a lackey. The snake EB/AV arc is fun, though.

As a brief aside, hopefully the Incarnate powers allow players to essentially bypass the patron arcs, while still providing for similar types of powers to what can be gained through the patron arcs.

Summing up, I see the "lackeyism" mentioned by others, and it does get bothersome after a while. I see a lot of other choices and contact / arc trajectories, though, in addition to those in which my character is cast as a lackey.

As for "how evil would I like to be", I have no desire to RP the murder of children or other innocents, or torture, or the stuff at the "truly heinous" end of the scale. I'd like a fair amount of variety so that I can follow through on the "nature" of my characters. The new clone arcs are a welcome step toward building on what I see as a fair amount of variety that is already present. I also like the "pop-up" nature of these new contacts, as I like having an alternative to running 10 to 15 mayhems to get contacts in each level range.

Really, the new Villain content is where it's at. You have a choice.

You can be 'misunderstood' in it, and make the somewhat kinder choices. Or you can leave a blazing trail in your wake, laughing as you step out of the rubble.

THAT is key; it should be up to the players. We shouldn't be shoehorned into being Arachnos lackeys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This is a really interesting discussion to look in on, especially given how Going Rogue proposes to deal with things on a sliding scale of Hero-Vigilante-Rogue-Villain. This right there implies a degree of choice in your actions and consequences thereof.

There's something I've learned as a tabletop roleplayer of coming up on thirty years, and that is the illusion of free will. If anyone ran a tabletop game or made an MMO that was totally about players doing precisely as they felt like, the atmosphere, direction and overall enjoyment factor would drop dramatically in a very short time. Like it or not, players have to be guided in the right direction whilst being given the impression that what they decide is being done with no coercion, deception or misdirection.

Now that isn't to say that players have no say whatsoever; in fact, what they do in the context of a story may entirely change its direction to an unexpected conclusion with unexpected consequences. But that isn't as easily done in MMO's because of both the technology involved and the necessary progression of the character. It'd be very, very easy to have a story told in this game that was a continuous stream of dialogue and choice branching that wouldn't end. But they must because they should. But it's the illusion of free will that is the most crucial thing. The idea, plan or opinion presented must be one that seems reasonable to the person playing it, be they thinking in character or as themselves. Any time you have more than one option presented to you, there is an illusion of free will. I note that Bioware's Star Wars game is looking at a decidedly complex choice/consequence system and I hope that this is something that Going Rogue also does.

With regards to villainy, I agree totally that the writing for the most part in CoV is very comicbook-ish, but again we run into some constaints. The first is the T for Teen rating. You have to be careful about what you say and what you do. Secondly is the very nature of comicbook villainy.

I played the Marvel Superheroes tabletop game for many years and managed to do some very morally and ethically challenging stories, and villiany to me at least relies on being proactive. Heroes are very rarely proactive, and when they are, they're seen as vigilantes or in fact become villainous themselves. It wouldn't be an unreasonable argument to apply that to Emperor Cole, for instance. But we again come back to the illusion of free will.

Arachnos could be a wonderful in-game mechanic for players interested in being part of 'the machine'; I actually created a Villain Group comprised of all Soldiers of Arachnos with Arbiters training them to be an elite unit of 'law enforcement'. I was inspired by the Judge Dredd comic and the 501st division from Star Wars, Vader's Fist. For me it was a way to be proactive, give myself an illusion of free will (it was my character's decision to form the unit as he chose and had carte blanche in choosing members) whilst still 'serving Arachnos'. I don't regret that decision because in a sense I get the best of both worlds.

That being said, I understand that people want to be independent decision makers, answerable to noone but their own villianous desires. It's always going to be difficult when your game setting says 'here is the power structure and you either start on one side or the other or you get a choice to change sides.' There is no choice of your own to take here; it's a situation of absolutes, but if you were truly independent, would that mean there'd be another third faction called Rogues/Vigilantes with their own story arcs? I'm not going to presume Going Rogue is that in-depth, but to me it looks like a step in the right direction.

I agree also that branching dialogue, some system to recognise who you are and better writing would all make City of Villains a much stronger experience. The first part could conceivably be done by a form of reputation system? LotRo did this by tying your missions to a system of 'reputation points', so as you did more for them, the NPC's would speak to you more favorably and new tiers of contacts would be opened to you. Now, this is difficult as Arachnos is meant to be the only faction in the Rogue Isles, and I find myself coming back to Rogues and Vigilantes. I think the Loyalists and Resistance factions might do something with this, but that's just speculation.

Ultimately, I tend to look at these games as big sandboxes that I can play in. I do think we can all find something in the game we connect to and have a desire to run with; I think also if enough people express what that is and are heard collectively as a group, then the devs will at least hear them out (and they have had an excellent record in doing so thus far, at least in my opinion). I think the new villian arcs are in fact some proof of that.

That's my two villianous infamy's worth, anyways.


S.

On a 1-10 scale, I am a pretty solid 6. That is, until I find out I'm being duped, then I'll make Jigsaw from the Saw series look like Mr. Rogers. That Rikti-Spy lady that sends you to "silence" that Lost-turned contact (Timothy I believe his name is) would make an excellent example of someone I would pleasantly torture.

Hence my like of the new missions.
You still end up doing the same things. You still end up beting on x number of enemies, you still fight certain groups, and you have the same end boss.

But you PICK how many X is, you can do things in slightly different ways, you can choose bits of the aftermath. It might not be 'huge' choice, but its enough to really add enjoyment to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I'm about an 8... then again, that's societies label for evil, not mine. The perfections of the humna race through the applications of cybernetics is hardly evil... just radical. The drug companies want your body to be old and sick... imperfect so that you can buy their "treatments" and fund their surgically altered ladyboi mistresses... YES... THAT'S RIGHT, i'M TALKING ABOUT YOU MS LIBERTY, WITH YOUR LONG COLT LIKE LEGS AND YOU SMOOTH SMOOTH FOREHEAD... AND... AND... err... um...

... pardon, I digress.

I just wish we could be a little more "evil" in Cov. Not repercussion-less evil... after all, even in the Isles, start slapping around civilians and the RiPs *should* response in force. Smack an Arbiter and your should be dealt with. I'd like to see a bit more "good guy" NPCs in mission and more missions that take place in Paragon City environs. Imagine, for example, if a kidnapping or theft mission was set on a mayhem map, for example where you have to make the choice, avoid the cops on my way to the target, or raise a little hell.

Just my two cents

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

I wanna be more evil than we are now.

There's some arcs which are pretty evil, Westin Phipps is pretty evil, but even still they got away in the end and presumably lived happily ever after, meh.

There's been only one game so far where i could be so evil i actually felt remorse. The game was Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic near the end of it. Where i had turned to the darkside, killed Carth for being a whiney ***** and then when Mission wanted out i force dominated Zaalbaar to strangle her. After i did that, i actually cried a little, i loved Mission, and using her best friend to murder her...


I understand we cannot really kill civilians and such, but i still wanna be more than just a schoolyard bully :|
I really wish we had more choises in what we do, i don't wanna rescue workers as a villain, why can't i accidentally use an aoe and incinerate them and go "whoops, my BAD!".
I wanna do things that benefit me, as a villain i'm pretty selfish, if someone in a mission would come with a better offer i would like the opportunity to turn my coat and go after my contact.