(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Personally, I'd be satisfied if they changed mayhem missions to be less about petty vandalism and more about mayhem and destruction. I want to go in and say, "Boom! Take that apartment building!" not "Boom! Take that payphone!"
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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I specifically took Kick on one of my villains so that I could kick over trash cans in style |
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Personally, I'd be satisfied if they changed mayhem missions to be less about petty vandalism and more about mayhem and destruction. I want to go in and say, "Boom! Take that apartment building!" not "Boom! Take that payphone!"
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Of course, I also use it to "Little pig! Little pig let me in!" vault doors.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Based on the amount of damage an exploding building can do (Steel Canyon fires), just be sure you're willing to take that hit.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Personally, I'd be satisfied if they changed mayhem missions to be less about petty vandalism and more about mayhem and destruction. I want to go in and say, "Boom! Take that apartment building!" not "Boom! Take that payphone!"
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Okay, snarky comment aside, that would be fun. They would have to have a boatload of HP. Significantly higher than the cars and trucks that are tough for lowbies but nothing to higher-level characters.
If they had one Phipps/Themari contact every level range, I'd never complain.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
<reference to "Mercenary">
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Mercenaries get paid higher. Henchmen get Medical, Dental and if they're lucky, two weeks vacation per year.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which is not an improvement over "henchman."
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I'm thinking something more along the lines of the arsons. It wouldn't completely destroy the building, but it would blow off a chunk of the exterior or cause half the building to collapse. You know, something that would actually provide a distraction to emergency services. Not "OMG! A mail box was destroyed! Call the cops!"
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Okay, snarky comment aside, that would be fun. They would have to have a boatload of HP. Significantly higher than the cars and trucks that are tough for lowbies but nothing to higher-level characters.
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Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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I'm not against the idea itself, but I feel that the concept of "punching a building until it falls down" is a bit... Unwieldy. Perhaps allowing us to enter the building and smash its supports would be a good alternative. That is, of course, unless you want the sort of Red Faction: Guerilla meets Katamari Damacy sort of utter destruction of everything, which might not be a bad idea...|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Okay, snarky comment aside, that would be fun. They would have to have a boatload of HP. Significantly higher than the cars and trucks that are tough for lowbies but nothing to higher-level characters.
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But NOT in landmark locations, and probably not in Mayhem missions, either.
That said, I can actually see a mission that started out all nice and shiny and then got progressively less and less shiny as you broke things, sort of how the world in the original Dungeon Keeper gets more and more crappy the more lands you take, and not just the lands, themselves and not just as you take them. You could start off a generic nice city location and end up with... Well, Boomtown.
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On that note, here's something that I've wanted to see for a while - breakable walls inside instanced missions. We already have the technology in the form of breakable doors, like the ones that keep us inside jail cells on maps with jails. What I'm suggesting is to make a part of the wall act like "a door" that is fitted into a corresponding hole in the wall that's not breakable. That way, we can attack the breakable section of wall and punch through. Even if the technology is not ideal, I'm sure the concept would fire up many people's imaginations.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For me, the two main things I dislike the most about CoV (which keep me from playing it much at all) are 1) what you describe, the story making your character seem as if it's "on rails" -- which is fine in a single-player game, but an MMO should be, by design, a sandbox game where we can define our own characters' arcs (and one reason I absolutely LOATHE the power proliferation BS explanation, because it suddenly invalidates every background that doesn't hew to the game's explanations of power origins) and 2) the zone design. It's fugly and fussy and nearly impossible to navigate through. Any benefit one gets from proximity missions is negated by blind alleys, dead ends, roving mobs and the like. Some zones are worse than others, obviously, but they all suck to some degree.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Thank you. (Beware coming overdramaticness)
IMO, it was a failure largely because of this. I mean, what many of us say is that it has better archetypes and gameplay, so why is there no population? Why did it fall so short of its predecessor commercially, other than a temporary bump? If it were a standalone game, it probably would be closed by now. What I would like to ask somebody on the inside at the time is WHY? I'm honestly confused and want to know why somebody thought this was a good idea or that people would want it. This isn't exaggerating or just being rhetorical. I am curious and want to know how it could become a design philosophy. My theories aren't particularly plausible. Did the guy from D&D not understand superheroes? Did Jack Emmert go ego crazy and actually think people would want to pay money to worship his alter ego's nemesis? There are probably some other explanations, but none I can think of. |
But the worst of those two is the directed story. I just hate that. Whoever came up with that, as well as the Power Proliferation nonsense, should be soundly thrashed until they never do it again.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
There is a difference between 'evil' as in Villain Threat level, where Rulaaru tops the scales in the 'City of' multiverse...
...and 'evil' as in Antagonist Vileness, where Westin Phipps seems to reign supreme.
The Teen rating limits the degree to which vileness can be depicted, but does not limit the Villain Threat level.
As players, I think we all like dealing with threats to the entire city or thereabouts (or an aspect of the entire city, such as the drug trade) in the average mission, but with occaisional missions far above and far below that average.
Similarly, I think very few people want the average or most common villain mission to be at 'baby torture' levels of vileness. I think the 'get the MacGuffin, possibly kill everybody in my way' level of vileness is also a good average. There should be occaisional dips into mere 'beat up this guy's bodyguards and threaten him to leave your friends alone' levels of villainy, and also scale up to 'threaten the omniverse with eternal torment' levels.
The main thing here is choice, which is being given to us in the form of being allowed to autocomplete or abandon missions.
With a few exceptions (such as the 'save the Rikti from Smallpox' mission) most heroes will take any mission that allows them to protect the status quo.
On the other hand, villains are more likely to pursue varying predefined paths to their ultimate success. Not all villain characters would take a chance at dooming the universe to eternal torment if they could. Heck, not all of them would take candy from babies or be bothered to exact terrifying revenge on old foes.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Some thing they could do was let you go beyond the default level of evil with teh GR system - like if you start off as a Villain, the only points you can earn are ones towards becoming a Rogue/Hero, as you're already at the lowest point of the morality chaina s a Villain.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Hmmmm, here's a thought...
What if the new Branching Dialogue tech can be plugged into old missions? More deeply, what if they can flag something about your character (levels, current inf, badges) to trigger different levels of 'deference' or other 'emotional flavor' in the dialogue for certain characters? So you go to Westin Phipps with Dark Puppykicker, and he's all, "I like your style". Go to him with Utopia's Fist, and he's like "You seem mamby-pamby to me, but I got work if you can handle it, which I doubt." By the same token, Utopia's Fist earns "I have been looking forward to working with you." from Hardcase, who is all "I've got my eye on you. Watch yourself." To Dark Puppykicker. Also, it occurs that the 4 Patrons represent different paths of villainy, and be given more missions at various levels to guide characters along their chosen path. I may be off on my lore, here, but this is just a general outline. Ghost Widow: arcs for the player who really wants to climb through the ranks of Arachnos. Perhaps she is even grooming you to take over in the event of Recluse' fall to ensure her own continued existence. These are arcs for those who want to play the cool flashy bodyguard of the Big Bad or the Evil Organization: Crimson Dynamo, Darth Vader. Scirocco: arcs for the player who wants a villain with a hero inside trying to get out. Arcs that involve 'ends justify the means' type stories and the grey area between being a hero and a villain. Magneto, Lex Luthor. Mako: arcs for the player who wants a violent or even mindless villain, all about destruction and chaos and evil fun. Joker, Sabretooth. Black Scorpion: arcs that are all about how crime pays, and flaunting the rules gets you what you want faster and easier. Juggernaut, Penguin. |
But they could allow you to earn evil points too, so that you could get a minus score - like not every Villain would always kick a puppy, so if you chose to do that, you'd get one Twirl Point on the Moustache-o-meter, makling you more evil than the default Villain level of zero points - so rather than the system just letting you either stay as a Villain or earn points towards becoming good, it'd also let you become more evil.
Right now, it doesn't matter how evil you are, at 50, you're rating is still just the same as a level 1 fresh from the Zig.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I like the idea of running in, destroying a couple of support beams (destroyable objects), setting a bomb or two, then running out, sorta similar to the Arson side missions.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not against the idea itself, but I feel that the concept of "punching a building until it falls down" is a bit... Unwieldy. Perhaps allowing us to enter the building and smash its supports would be a good alternative. That is, of course, unless you want the sort of Red Faction: Guerilla meets Katamari Damacy sort of utter destruction of everything, which might not be a bad idea...
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But instead of the model of a good building having smoke added to the exterior later, we could have a ruined husk of a building having a fake "skin" of an intact building over the top of it, to be removed when the sidemission is completed.
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| But NOT in landmark locations, and probably not in Mayhem missions, either. |
Sure, there's the question of why didn't they rebuild Boomtown if rebuilding is that fast, but...um.....there's neither voters nor taxpayers in that section of town?
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--- On that note, here's something that I've wanted to see for a while - breakable walls inside instanced missions. We already have the technology in the form of breakable doors, like the ones that keep us inside jail cells on maps with jails. What I'm suggesting is to make a part of the wall act like "a door" that is fitted into a corresponding hole in the wall that's not breakable. That way, we can attack the breakable section of wall and punch through. Even if the technology is not ideal, I'm sure the concept would fire up many people's imaginations. |
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Makes sense, but the problem is that the current default level of villainy encompasses everything from rescuing people from demons to blinding innocent children (on the Vileness scale) and everything from making a few inf threatening people to destroying the world (on the Threat scale).|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Some thing they could do was let you go beyond the default level of evil with teh GR system - like if you start off as a Villain, the only points you can earn are ones towards becoming a Rogue/Hero, as you're already at the lowest point of the morality chaina s a Villain.
But they could allow you to earn evil points too, so that you could get a minus score - like not every Villain would always kick a puppy, so if you chose to do that, you'd get one Twirl Point on the Moustache-o-meter, makling you more evil than the default Villain level of zero points - so rather than the system just letting you either stay as a Villain or earn points towards becoming good, it'd also let you become more evil. Right now, it doesn't matter how evil you are, at 50, you're rating is still just the same as a level 1 fresh from the Zig. |
The thing is, it's all linked to (and rewarded through) gated content. I wonder if people would be willing to have a system where they were not able to get an intro to Westin Phipps until after they had earned enough 'mustache-twirling' points doing certain other missions.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I think something like this would be a great addition to mayhems. It could also vary by location. For example, in Independence Port, instead of destroying a building you sink a cargo ship. Or in Peregrine Island you blow up the Vanguard depot (or, if that's not within the mission area, maybe you could bring down some of the high tension power lines, which could actually work just like a normal destructible object).
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
I like the idea of running in, destroying a couple of support beams (destroyable objects), setting a bomb or two, then running out, sorta similar to the Arson side missions.
But instead of the model of a good building having smoke added to the exterior later, we could have a ruined husk of a building having a fake "skin" of an intact building over the top of it, to be removed when the sidemission is completed |
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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I don't think it makes sense for us to topple the Atlas statue five times a day. Pay phones, bus stops, parking metres, those are all things few people notice when they run about in the streets. I honestly can't tell you if I've ever seen all the crates in Mayhem missions in the "real" locations at all. They just don't register for me. Crates and such may as well not be there, but landmark buildings really aren't something I'd feel should be broken repeatedly.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Why not in Mayhem missions? If Paragon can have new payphones, fire hydrants and bus stops installed every time someone sneezes, why not have destroyable buildings that get rebuilt just as fast?
Sure, there's the question of why didn't they rebuild Boomtown if rebuilding is that fast, but...um.....there's neither voters nor taxpayers in that section of town? |
Since Mayhem missions are already slated to be about robbing a bank set in an iconic location, I don't think they're the right fit for this. I'd more look at some kind of "demolition" mission that sends you into one of those "jumbled" outdoor maps that looks like it's in Paragon City, but isn't part of any place you can visit. It's "in the city," just not where anyone can see it, which means we can destroy it to our hearts' content.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not only would anything like that only appeal to a very small minority of red siders, it'd also rip up the T rating, and quite possibly get the game banned.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
<qr>
It... depends. I mean, you can get into philosophical discussions of just what evil *is* (and how it changes from point of view in some instances, or where it differs from 'uncivilized,' or any number of other things) but that'd take quite a bit. (It's also "Is that what you're really asking," which I don't think is the case - get to that near the bottom.) Part of the problem, of course, is that this is a game, restricted not only by ratings but by the fact we're creating our *own* characters, interacting with the same world as everyone else's characters. It would be, I'd think, easier to "write evil" (and degrees of evil) in a single player game. Of course, even then, part of the question is "how much do you want to restrict your market" (as well as "how much heat are you prepared to take?") Do you write in theft? Pretty lightweight. Drug dealing? Again pretty lightweight. Murder? We've got it implied at points. (OK, "assassination" or "taking out" people.) But you can RP around it if you wouldn't "murder" ("I'm taking them out of the picture.") We've got an arc or two where you take someone away for implied beating, torture, etc. Would you want an arc where you were the one doing the torturing? With any degree of freedom? Want aside, would you play it? I don't mean "Yeah, it'd be cool" or "it'd fit my character," but you, personally, getting to spend anything from half an hour to "as long as you can" causing pain, psychological damage and humiliation to a target? How about "You skin them alive and deliver the results, and video, to make your point?" Fits evil, yes? I, personally, wouldn't want to see it mentioned ... pretty much any character of mine had done that, much less saying "OK, player (not character,) this is what you're going to do." I have to admit, I wouldn't play that. *shrug* |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's why the system would need tweaking a bit - just give each arc a evil rating, so the rescuing from demons bit would earn you zero Twirl Points, but the child harming one would earn you several - so if you had two Villains, both onthe default zero level of evil, and the first one took the demon rescue one, they'd remain on zero, but the second one took the hurting children one, they'd be on -5, so Villain one might get a more sympathetic text from Scirocco, but something scornful from Mako, but Villain two would get a more uneasy text from Scirocco, and high fives from Mako.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Makes sense, but the problem is that the current default level of villainy encompasses everything from rescuing people from demons to blinding innocent children (on the Vileness scale) and everything from making a few inf threatening people to destroying the world (on the Threat scale).
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And as well as just adding that type of flavor to the text, it could also afefct how you got contacts - like if you were too depraved, some of the less evil ones mightn't work with you, but you might also get a Father-Time-needs-you style pop up from Westin Phipps, saying he's heard about you and he thinks you might be someone he'd be interested in meeting with - and it'd work the other way too, with Phipps turning you away if you didn't have enough Twirl Points, but other less evil contacts would seek you out as a like-minded type of Villain and so on.
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| The thing is, it's all linked to (and rewarded through) gated content. I wonder if people would be willing to have a system where they were not able to get an intro to Westin Phipps until after they had earned enough 'mustache-twirling' points doing certain other missions. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Yes, I'm liking this idea.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Oh. Oh, damn. That's not right.|
Originally Posted by Venture
RE title: This evil.
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| The new arcs are, contrary to popular opinion, clumsy and ineffective at working around the system's limitations. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
I would like to ruin innocent people's lives because it's more convenient for me.
I would like to kill, blackmail, or frame anyone who gets in my way.
I would like the option of starting a civil war within Arachnos, leading to the destruction of the world. Maybe I don't believe the world will be destroyed. Maybe I don't care. What do we need Recluse for anyway? To send us out on a gruelling series of missions to defeat his archnemesis, the hardest task in the game so far, that rewards us with the most insulting badge title in the history of badge titles? Screw that. Kill the ****er and let Nemesis sort em out.
For that matter, I don't want to work for Arachnos. I'd rather work for Nemesis. Not that I particularly want to work for Nemesis either, but at least he'd keep up a semblance of order and keep the litter off the streets.
I am sick and tired of people referring to Westin Phipps as "evil." He is the Beavis & Butthead of villainy. I do not want to eat kittens for the lulz. However I will eat a hundred kittens if I somehow benefit from it.
I would like more Vernon Von Gruns ("you couldn't have screwed up, you're awesome.") and fewer Arbiter Daoses ("do what I say you puny lackey you.") I expect high level contacts to acknowledge my awesomeness, not hide behind some higher authority that I might have already beaten up, or at least seriously inconvenienced.
I would like villains, pure villains, not rogues or vigilantes or some other shade of grey, to have their own STF. It can be a direct copy of the existing STF. It can replace serving Recluse's petty vendetta against Statesman and his pals for purposes of getting fake HOs. I want to double-cross him, because I am a villain, and he is in my way.
Of course if that happens we'd need another means to get the Master of Olympus badge. Maybe another Strike Force, based around Malta. Because Malta are a good example of another kind of evil I would like to be allowed to be. I would like to use, abuse, and kill "good guys" who maybe haven't done anything to tick me off personally (or even worse, ticked off my contact) but maybe have something I want, or could be useful to me.
I don't need the game itself to go up to 11 on the villainy scale. I do want it to accomodate characters who may be willing to go that far.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Vernon's a good example (although a comedic one, which I'm not a fan of), in that he's always looks up to you, but he always has a plan. He does tell you what to do, but in the most practical sense, he's actually helping you do something really cool that he's completely incapable of doing on his own. He respects your work, he hails you as the big guy and basically sticks to doing his science and not sticking his nose into your methodology. With Vernon, he's the little guy working hard to help out and you're the big guy strutting his stuff and doing major deeds.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I would like more Vernon Von Gruns ("you couldn't have screwed up, you're awesome.") and fewer Arbiter Daoses ("do what I say you puny lackey you.") I expect high level contacts to acknowledge my awesomeness, not hide behind some higher authority that I might have already beaten up, or at least seriously inconvenienced.
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Personally, that's the kind of evil I'm most appreciative of. It's not vile enough to make me question whether I want to keep playing, but it's more than villainous enough to make me feel like the antagonist of the story. And at the end of the day, I'd say that's the point.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm having a good chuckle right now, running the Marshal Brass arc
"If you were an actual member of Arachnos I'd have to kill you"
and there I stand, with the name Widow Burns and wearing an Arachnos Widow costume 
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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The VEATs are allegedly Arachnos agents that've gone rogue.
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Originally Posted by BigFish
I'm having a good chuckle right now, running the Marshal Brass arc
"If you were an actual member of Arachnos I'd have to kill you" and there I stand, with the name Widow Burns and wearing an Arachnos Widow costume |
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That's kind the same feel I get from the new Dean. Well, that and the feeling that D-Mac is a D-Bag. But he's not ordering he's offering, and he's helping you because he's backing the winning side.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
He does tell you what to do, but in the most practical sense, he's actually helping you do something really cool that he's completely incapable of doing on his own. He respects your work, he hails you as the big guy and basically sticks to doing his science and not sticking his nose into your methodology. With Vernon, he's the little guy working hard to help out and you're the big guy strutting his stuff and doing major deeds.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Tangent warning:
Last night I saw the movie Law Abiding Citizen with Gerard Butler vs Jamie Foxx.
Wow.
No spandex involved, but at it's heart it was one of the best Super-Villain origin stories I have ever seen since Doctor Horrible. There was great music, great cinematography, great dialogue and direction, but I was very blown away by the slippery slope of a man with a justified grudge toward the depths of villainy.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.