(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Sorry, that was a misunderstanding on my part. I extrapolated on the idea to extremes in the form of the total zone destruction idea where you'd land in a nice city zone and transform it into Boomtown. I assumed this was what you were referring to, and that kind of complete and utter destruction just wouldn't look right in a specific, iconic location. I have nothing against taking out a building or two in iconic locations, just nothing terribly major.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
You see, I'm not asking or even considering, that a L5-10 villain is going to topple the AP statue. That would be, for lack of a better term, silly.
Now, damaging a small building in that warehouse section of AP near where your SG porter drops you and the Hellions hang out? Maybe. A villain of higher level in destroying one of those buildings near the Indy Port docks or in Brickstown destroying a warehouse or something like that? Sure. |
At the same time, I DO want to see a mission that has you go into a city area and, to quote evil Coop, "Destroy everything!" Not that good Coop doesn't do that all the time... Basically, it'd be like what Tobias Hansen leaves behind after leaving a hostile Venezuelan army outpost, e.i. nothing. Walk into an area, tear down every building, then go home.
I guess heroes can have the inverse mission of chasing out villains from a bunch of locations in a Boomtown style area, making room for construction workers and, by the time they leave, leaving behind a fully built-up city zone. Be a pretty heroic and satisfying thing to do.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Super-Heroes working in relation to or alongside normal folks with "heroic" normal jobs like Fireman, Police, Construction just seems cool to me.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I guess heroes can have the inverse mission of chasing out villains from a bunch of locations in a Boomtown style area, making room for construction workers and, by the time they leave, leaving behind a fully built-up city zone. Be a pretty heroic and satisfying thing to do.
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That idea sounds good for an entirely new mission type.
Instead of the Steel Canyon fires being the way they are, having us have to protect Firemen from Hellions would have been interesting too. But they chose a route where we directly fight the fires and defeat the Hellions ourselves.
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I'm really hoping they do that when they flesh out the current zone events - we could help the police more too for the Troll raves in Skyway.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Super-Heroes working in relation to or alongside normal folks with "heroic" normal jobs like Fireman, Police, Construction just seems cool to me.
That idea sounds good for an entirely new mission type. Instead of the Steel Canyon fires being the way they are, having us have to protect Firemen from Hellions would have been interesting too. But they chose a route where we directly fight the fires and defeat the Hellions ourselves. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You use the word "when", inferring a near-certainty that this will happen. I'm curious.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm really hoping they do that when they flesh out the current zone events - we could help the police more too for the Troll raves in Skyway.
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Hang on - I'll try and find it - it was a Tweet from Hero Con, I think.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
You use the word "when", inferring a near-certainty that this will happen. I'm curious.
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EDIT: I can't find the Tweet, but there's a post with a list of some Hero Con Tweets here, and zone events being expanded is mentioned:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=373
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I see. Thank you.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Hang on - I'll try and find it - it was a Tweet from Hero Con, I think.
EDIT: I can't find the Tweet, but there's a post with a list of some Hero Con Tweets here, and zone events being expanded is mentioned: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=373 |
I shall reserve my rant about "the Devs using Twitter instead of posting on the forums", etc., since ranting isn't an appropriate use of these boards.
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I don't think it was a dev that Tweeted - I think it was one of the players who was there, relaying any new info as soon as they heard it.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
I see. Thank you.
I shall reserve my rant about "the Devs using Twitter instead of posting on the forums", etc., since ranting isn't an appropriate use of these boards. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I wouldn't want to talk to or be in a room with somebody it did appeal to.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not only would anything like that only appeal to a very small minority of red siders, it'd also rip up the T rating, and quite possibly get the game banned.
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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Neither would I - but at least being an MMO it'd be safer - no RL contact |
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
I wouldn't want to talk to or be in a room with somebody it did appeal to.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I use Vernon as an example because he's the first one that comes to mind when I think of contacts that look up to you, instead of expecting the opposite. He doesn't try to bully you into helping him; instead he flatters you. You are not an expendable lackey. He needs you, and he lets you know.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Vernon's a good example (although a comedic one, which I'm not a fan of), in that he's always looks up to you, but he always has a plan. He does tell you what to do, but in the most practical sense, he's actually helping you do something really cool that he's completely incapable of doing on his own. He respects your work, he hails you as the big guy and basically sticks to doing his science and not sticking his nose into your methodology. With Vernon, he's the little guy working hard to help out and you're the big guy strutting his stuff and doing major deeds.
Personally, that's the kind of evil I'm most appreciative of. It's not vile enough to make me question whether I want to keep playing, but it's more than villainous enough to make me feel like the antagonist of the story. And at the end of the day, I'd say that's the point. |
As for how villainous he is, well he's pretty much working on creating a better WMD, so he's pretty damn villainous. If he wasn't a comedic contact his arcs would be downright vile.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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They aren't astute expressions of artful thought, and have plot holes, but they get the job done and do quite a lot to address the complaints being made here. They are fun to play, which is the utimate measure of game writing.|
Originally Posted by Venture
The new arcs are, contrary to popular opinion, clumsy and ineffective at working around the system's limitations.
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Originally Posted by Venture
The game can't allow you to do as you please. It's not possible. Even a game driven by player initiative as opposed to Contacts won't let you do anything other than mess around inside a defined framework. You need to adjust your expectations -- make characters that work within what CoV actually is, not the game you wish you were playing -- or accept that CoV doesn't do what you want (and likely never will) and move on.
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The point is that the writers should work towards making it so, as they HAVE been doing in I17.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's true, but once again, I argue that this is much more a question of presentation and writing than it is of actual game mechanics. The game doesn't have to let me do as I please as long as it makes it seem as MY CHARACTER does as HE pleases. Tavish Bell's arc is a good example. "Go do something!" says Tavish Bell. "OK!" responds my character. Promptly, I am given a waypoint in the door behind them. I step inside, and "Yeah, might be a good idea to snoop around. Let the contract expire, who cares?" My character doesn't necessarily do what I wanted, but he still defies his contact.
Willy Wheeler is a ALMOST another good example. He's a slimy nobody who basically serves as an information vending machine that you make use of to pull jobs, and eventually screw over by turning in Ace McKnight. Basically, it comes down to the contacts not saying "Har har har! I'm so great! You there, loser! Come do my dirty work!" but rather saying "No, not in the face! I'll tell you what you want, just please don't hurt me!" For instance: When Daos says "Do this or Arachnos will be cross, the mission ought to have my character give him the finger and walk away, pointing me to a building where I'll get jumped by Arachnos soldiers. I wipe the floor with them, come back to Daos and he tries to save face and still act like he planned it all along. Mission structure doesn't need to so much as budge. Writing needs to branch out. |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Shouldn't he have killed me on sight for impersonating an Agent of Arachnos?|
Originally Posted by Scythus
The VEATs are allegedly Arachnos agents that've gone rogue.
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Just a little logic glitch that's fun to chortle over as Brian Burns eliminates the people that Arachnos wants eliminated. As a rogue Arachnos Widow
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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Others have already tried and failed. Why risk his neck when he has a bigger fish to fry (Dr. Aeon)?
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Originally Posted by BigFish
Shouldn't he have killed me on sight for impersonating an Agent of Arachnos?
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What average from 1-10?
Oh, Marcian, you silly... They should average 5 (Although, maybe not by your definitions).
Sam said it best... The key to villains is being the protagonist.
Some of the most fun we've had in table top RPGs (It's been a while) was with a villainous group where I, as the game master, just set up the world and let the players decide what and where and how... Sure, I could and would supply things now and then, but the key was to always let them push what they wanted to do.
Heroes are easier to direct. That works for a broader spectrum... A hero will seek to help. Others will do things for rewards...
For villains, I believe the key is providing ongoing worlds that can be disrupted, corrupted, diverted, etc.
As far as the farthest reaching level of villainy I enjoy playing for some characters... What BZB mentioned is a good starting place
I enjoy villains that are not evil, but very mixed up in their perspective.
I also enjoy villains that cannot be justified at all.
And I enjoy some variances in the middle... and I think a game like this should try to suit each and all here and there... and let the player decide what they want to do and what they want to avoid.
Easy to say, obviously, and a difficult task to achieve...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I like the idea in principle but I shudder at the practical consequence of sections of wall grabbing my target reticule when I'm beating my way through a horde of opponents. Or getting unintentionally blown away by AoEs so that adds can come and overwhelm me.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On that note, here's something that I've wanted to see for a while - breakable walls inside instanced missions. We already have the technology in the form of breakable doors, like the ones that keep us inside jail cells on maps with jails. What I'm suggesting is to make a part of the wall act like "a door" that is fitted into a corresponding hole in the wall that's not breakable. That way, we can attack the breakable section of wall and punch through. Even if the technology is not ideal, I'm sure the concept would fire up many people's imaginations.
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I'd be happy if intangibility powers would just actually let me walk through walls. But then, that would require contiguous maps...
I've made a few mentally broken villains. Boil a baby, kick a puppy...basically she attacked anything weaker than her. Which, got deleted, mostly because when I RP, and I kept getting complaints about the whole boiling/killing/maiming babies/kittens/puppies/bunnies.
And that was just her talking about it. Not even RPing doing it.
And besides that my more fun villains (for me), are just thrill seeking criminals akin to Black Cat and Catwoman. One's who are criminals and part time heroes. So when GR comes out, I'll have to see how much the game defines the difference between Vigilante and Rogue.
My main and anothers main, got in a IC discussion on things, at which time I ended it OOCly, because game mechanics are more of the reason things happen in the game than anything else.
Ie... a group like Wyvern is setup, trying to over-throw Recluse, I really don't think the Longbow is going to attack them as villains, but the game of course goes the route of "you are a villain" whether your concept does or not.
So, it makes me wonder if they'll be able to set it up so the Longbow won't attack Viglantes in RI, since they wouldn't in Paragon.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Vault doors already solve one of these problems. Despite being attackable targets, vault doors are not auto-selectable in any of the default ways. Tab-targeting will skip over them and pressing an attack with no target selected will ignore them. The same ought to be applied to walls. Of course, it means we'll have to have SOME visual cue to let players know they can break a wall, but the old Duke Nukem 3D "cracks means breakable" ought to suffice.|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
I like the idea in principle but I shudder at the practical consequence of sections of wall grabbing my target reticule when I'm beating my way through a horde of opponents. Or getting unintentionally blown away by AoEs so that adds can come and overwhelm me.
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As far as accidentally breaking into another spawn... I actually like that prospect
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| I'd be happy if intangibility powers would just actually let me walk through walls. But then, that would require contiguous maps... |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I can't add much more than has already been said. This is a city of Villains. This is OUR story.
And, seriously, please, please, PLEASE more arcs where Arachnos keept itself to itself. One of the original things said about CoV was 'It's like Dr Doom opening up Latveria to all villainous comers and saying '"Stay out of my way and my schemes and you are welcome here."'
That should be what happens. RIPs should attack you on sight, because they are basically bent cops and try to act all high and mighty. The Arachnos soldiers, though, should leave you alone, unless you attack them or their mates. For example, if you attack a mob of Goldbrickers that are being held at gun-point by Wolf Spiders, why should they care. There was an 'accident' and their targets wound up dead or in hospital. No skin off their noses. Of course, if the villain attacks the whole mob with a hail of gunfire/icicles/cracking the ground beneath their feet, then they have a problem. Thats attacking a soldier of Arachnos, dangnabit! Thats a crime!
CoV as it is written now is not even true to its own canon. For example, if you murder a random civilian, Arachnos is going to hunt you down. Recluse isn't meant to rule with an iron fist, yes. But not quite like it is in game. He wants civilians to see him as the best choice because, in his mind at least, his way is better. Thats what makes him a Super Villain; he doesn't do what he wants 'Because I's evil', he does it because he believes it is right.
Out of my own Villains, there are some who follow Arachnos, and some who will and have torn the Spiders a new one. Others dont really care.
- Krimzon Commander, an Arachnos commander who used to be part of the Council. He serves Arachnos because he buys into the Darwinism that Recluse promotes, and actually has a lot of faith in humans in general. That doesn't mean he won't smack seven hells out of anyone who gets in his way, and has one of Mako's teeth to prove it (He thinks Mako is a slimy abomination who sould be taken out an shot )
-Techbot Alpha. Alpha and the group he runs with, the Corporation, have given the spiders a huge finger quite a few times. Alpha has laid waste to every Arachnos unit sent to 'deal with him', and the same for any that go after his friends. He's not particularly evil himself, but he has absolutely no respect for Arachnos. If they pay him well enough in technological parts and show the proper respect, he might do the odd job for them. But the hell he would kowtow to them. (His shielding was 'given as a reward' by Black Scorpion in the games version of events. BS; Alpha and his robots gunned him down and put the fear of...well, Alpha into him. And stole some of his shielding tech to add insult to injury.)
-Ceasar the Troll. Ceasar couldn't care less who 'runs the Isles', so long as they don't mess around with his smuggling and arms rackets. Ceasar just wants to live the good life, and maybe break the necks of both factions of Family in Port Oakes (They tried to off him, and failed. Big mistake.) The Breccia, the Troll Mafia he runs (made up of smarter than average troll goons and a few Family ex-pats) are only really interested in being respected and making a profit. If Arachnos leave him alone, s'all good. If they try messing with his shipping lines, well...just means he gets to wear his street clothes out rather than the suit.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is what the game tells us. It tries to convince us that Recluse espouses a "survival of the fittest" philosophy, and that's why the Isles are the way they are.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
CoV as it is written now is not even true to its own canon. For example, if you murder a random civilian, Arachnos is going to hunt you down. Recluse isn't meant to rule with an iron fist, yes. But not quite like it is in game. He wants civilians to see him as the best choice because, in his mind at least, his way is better. Thats what makes him a Super Villain; he doesn't do what he wants 'Because I's evil', he does it because he believes it is right.
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The design and behavior of Arachnos, on the other hand, shows us differently. It does make sense though, that Arachnos would spout its propaganda at potential "destined ones." It is also not unreasonable to assume that some of Arachnos's operatives might start to believe their own hype.
What is unreasonable is to assume that all the player characters will buy into Recluse's BS despite being bombarded with constant evidence to the contrary.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
On that scale? A 4 maybe? Almost all of my villains are driven solely by selfishness - they do what they do to achieve their goals/desires, not caring much about who they have to step on to get it.
I've never liked the "evil for the sake of evil" characters much, even my demons are mostly more subtle than blowing stuff up for lulz (MOST of them anyway! :P).
What I liked about the new arcs is that they're entirely selfcentered, you do them because you have something to gain for yourself - unlike most of the current arcs where you're a mob enforcer/kneebreaker at best, and an errant boy at worst. :P
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
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That would be okay. Really when you mentioned it, I thought immediately of the CoT prison room. I cannot count the number of times that the magical barriers on the cell doors have screwed me up in there.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Vault doors already solve one of these problems. Despite being attackable targets, vault doors are not auto-selectable in any of the default ways. Tab-targeting will skip over them and pressing an attack with no target selected will ignore them. The same ought to be applied to walls. Of course, it means we'll have to have SOME visual cue to let players know they can break a wall, but the old Duke Nukem 3D "cracks means breakable" ought to suffice.
Intangibility currently allows you to walk through cell doors. I don't know if it works on vault doors, but I would assume so. As I envision breakable walls working the same way as breakable doors, it ought to. |
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I have a Papa Lazarou tribute toon. THAT evil.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
I run the gamut on my Villains. I have one Villain who is actually designed to be interchangable with his Heroic twin brother, to the point where the in-character story is, that no one knows there's more than one of him. And I have one Villain that is designed to make the Joker nervous.
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Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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There's your problem... talking about it.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I've made a few mentally broken villains. Boil a baby, kick a puppy...basically she attacked anything weaker than her. Which, got deleted, mostly because when I RP, and I kept getting complaints about the whole boiling/killing/maiming babies/kittens/puppies/bunnies.
And that was just her talking about it. Not even RPing doing it. |
Technically only a fragment of a hero's mind at the moment, I have Rei. She gets to come out properly after Going Rogue, but I've been formulating her personality and she has made one appearance in fiction. She's a horrible piece of work. She's a psychopath, sadist, murderer, sexual deviant, and not really a very nice person, and she doesn't really have breaks to put on to stop her doing things.
However... to be honest, babies and kittens are pretty boring to maim and kill, she much prefers adults, and she isn't going to talk about it to people. She would much rather demonstrate, over the course of several hours, with a lot of sharp objects.
She is, however, about the most nasty villain I've yet concocted and she's probably too nasty to actually roleplay much.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Yeah, I have something like that, myself. It's the one story I've written that a fair number of people have refused to read unless I promised them that there was something not depressing in it. Err... this one, to be precise. I wanted to experiment with turning a really nasty bad guy into a hero via epiphany and redemption, and I think I did well for myself, but his villainy is definitely about a 9.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Technically only a fragment of a hero's mind at the moment, I have Rei. She gets to come out properly after Going Rogue, but I've been formulating her personality and she has made one appearance in fiction. She's a horrible piece of work. She's a psychopath, sadist, murderer, sexual deviant, and not really a very nice person, and she doesn't really have breaks to put on to stop her doing things.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Since Mayhem missions are already slated to be about robbing a bank set in an iconic location, I don't think they're the right fit for this. I'd more look at some kind of "demolition" mission that sends you into one of those "jumbled" outdoor maps that looks like it's in Paragon City, but isn't part of any place you can visit. It's "in the city," just not where anyone can see it, which means we can destroy it to our hearts' content.
Now, damaging a small building in that warehouse section of AP near where your SG porter drops you and the Hellions hang out? Maybe.
A villain of higher level in destroying one of those buildings near the Indy Port docks or in Brickstown destroying a warehouse or something like that? Sure.