(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You know, you can still have 'dark and gritty' and still look good at it. Many incarnations of Gotham City pull that off well. It's dark, cramped, shadowy and menacing, but it still looks iconic, and impressive. The Rogue Islands looks like someone lit a landfill on fire.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I really don't think the Rogue Isles will get a nicer look - especially as they've now retconend Praetoria to be a gleaming futuristic place, instead of the run down ruined dump that we've seen in the current Praetorian arcs - if they'd still gone with that look for GR, then it's posisble they might have changed the look of the Rogue Isles to make the two places more distinctive - but with GR now giving us a shiny techno evil setting, I think the Rogue Isles will remain as the dark and gritty evil setting.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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You know, making an AV that can be a challenge to a full team of 8 players isn't really cheating - it's just sensible game design |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Speaking for myself, no I have not. Nor do I intend to. Nor do I see a reason to even care.
High-level super-task-forces don't interest me. They're just a case of the game rubbing signature characters in my face and trying to convince me they're so much better than me by cheating and giving them stupid amount of spare stats. There's a reason I almost never do TFs and SFs. I prefer to play the parts of the game where I can pretend I'm the big bad and my dad can beat up your dad. It's not the entire game, true, but if I pretend the rest doesn't exist hard enough, it actually kind of doesn't. |
And signature characters in TFs are an important way of making them more unique - Recluse seems more special when we have to do the STF to fight him - unless you just happen to be really lucky with a Safeguard mission
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think Grandville looks very impressive on the STF - the tower's huge |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You know, you can still have 'dark and gritty' and still look good at it. Many incarnations of Gotham City pull that off well. It's dark, cramped, shadowy and menacing, but it still looks iconic, and impressive. The Rogue Islands looks like someone lit a landfill on fire.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Oh gawd, the old "How dare they even challenge my superiority by not making everything a piece of cake" issue! *hides*
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
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Well of course Lord Recluse's home would look decent. But aside from the giant casino pyramid, it's really the only area. I know you can't stand the idea of playing the game, but I would seriously suggest you roll up a Stalker, skip the tutorial, and just look around Mercy with hide running. Then realize that the entire game looks like that.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think Grandville looks very impressive on the STF - the tower's huge
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EDIT: Heck, you yourself have promoted exploration in this very thread, so consider this your chance to explore something new. You don't have to take mission one, heck the Hide power is good enough you don't have to even engage in a fight, just take a look, and see what people are complaining about.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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One weird thing I've been wondering about is that when he seems so big on the dark gleaming techno evil look, his actual outfit is strangely dirty and faded looking - like his armor plates are scratched and battered looking, when I'd have thought he'd have some sort of sleek dark chrome texture on them.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Well of course Lord Recluse's home would look decent. But aside from the giant casino pyramid, it's really the only area.
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I think his outfit actually looks pretty cool and menacing, but the textures and colors just seem to make it less cool and evil looking than it could be.
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I know you can't stand the idea of playing the game, but I would seriously suggest you roll up a Stalker, skip the tutorial, and just look around Mercy with hide running. Then realize that the entire game looks like that. EDIT: Heck, you yourself have promoted exploration in this very thread, so consider this your chance to explore something new. You don't have to take mission one, heck the Hide power is good enough you don't have to even engage in a fight, just take a look, and see what people are complaining about. |
And from what I've seen, it does look pretty bleak and hopeless - but it's also a consistant look, and fits the lore of the Rogue Isles pretty well.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Maybe it's his reclusive lifestyle?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
One weird thing I've been wondering about is that when he seems so big on the dark gleaming techno evil look, his actual outfit is strangely dirty and faded looking - like his armor plates are scratched and battered looking, when I'd have thought he'd have some sort of sleek dark chrome texture on them.
I think his outfit actually looks pretty cool and menacing, but the textures and colors just seem to make it less cool and evil looking than it could be. |
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No need to do that - the MA lets me tour parts of the Rogue Isles in safety And from what I've seen, it does look pretty bleak and hopeless - but it's also a consistent look, and fits the lore of the Rogue Isles pretty well. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Well, ignoring the fact you've just said that you only need to look at mercy island to know what the entire CoV game world looks like, there's also the fact that the AE contains more than one red side outdoor map |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
This is like saying seeing the Steel Canyon-esque maps in the AE gives someone a perfect idea of what Paragon City in it's entirety looks like.
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The Rogue isles have been designed with a particular art style to make them feel grim and hopeless - it's not like that's just the way that it happened to turn out - and as they designed the art style to match the lore, unless they're planning a major villain lore revamp, then the red side zones aren't going to change their look.
Even the newest single faction zone added to the game, the Abyss, keeps with that style, so it's seems it's still their intention to keep the Rogue Isles looking the way they do now.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Just evil enough to conquer the TRI-STATE AREA!!!
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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You're a Doof.
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Originally Posted by gec72
Just evil enough to conquer the TRI-STATE AREA!!!
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Again, you can do Grim and hopeless without having people live in a trash heap. Those that have seen the entire Paragon City know that there is considerably more to it than just what the AE has to offer, and those that have actually seen the entire Rogue Isles know that the same can be said for those maps. And yes, every zone, including just off screen of the Grandville tower map has the people in the Rogue Isles living in a landfill. Not over top a closed one, living amongst piles of trash on fire.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, ignoring the fact you've just said that you only need to look at mercy island to know what the entire CoV game world looks like, there's also the fact that the AE contains more than one red side outdoor map
The Rogue isles have been designed with a particular art style to make them feel grim and hopeless - it's not like that's just the way that it happened to turn out - and as they designed the art style to match the lore, unless they're planning a major villain lore revamp, then the red side zones aren't going to change their look. Even the newest single faction zone added to the game, the Abyss, keeps with that style, so it's seems it's still their intention to keep the Rogue Isles looking the way they do now. |
Grim and gritty doesn't have to mean filthy.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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True, and if we must do filthy, let's have a Zozo themed area! It's still the same grim and filth, but a different enough interpretation to be a change in pace.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Grim and gritty doesn't have to mean filthy.
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(Zozo: The town in Final Fantasy VI where it always rained, virtually everything was broken and all but literally held together with spit, and it was expected of virtually every citizen to be a pickpocket and con artist.)
Sounds a little like this...
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If Statesman can nearly die from a nuke, then my main character should be able to give him something to cry about. Alpha is an Army of Seven, him and his team. They pack enough firepower to phases Statesman. So the LRSF is really a big 'F U' from the Jackanist era that I really hate. I will re-run it and beat it this time (Got mah nukes ready...) for the hell of it...then probably never touch it again.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You can actually see a tolerable version of him in Mender Silos' villain arc. He scales down to EB there, and he spawns player level, so it's a good place to take him on without having to beat the game at its own game. Not like Statesman the ARCHVILLAIN in To Save a Hero, where spawns as a level 54 Archvillain and proceeds to hit people for 5000 hit points per punch. Jack's subtle way of reminding us that the Statesman is and always will be better than us.
That's I1, though. In I11, you can slap the guy around on your own, which shows me, at least, that the development team is leaning our way, at least a bit. The Statesman is still tough as nails and he still cheats, but he's beatable with enough bravado. And that, really, is all I can ask for. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
True, and if we must do filthy, let's have a Zozo themed area! It's still the same grim and filth, but a different enough interpretation to be a change in pace.
(Zozo: The town in Final Fantasy VI where it always rained, virtually everything was broken and all but literally held together with spit, and it was expected of virtually every citizen to be a pickpocket and con artist.) Sounds a little like this... |
Part of that reminds me of The Pink Panther theme tune... Oo
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Evil enough that civillians flee in my wake. Evil enough that my enemies die. Evil enough that my enemies attack me for more than the color of my tights.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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I know - but like I said, it's an art style choice, and the Abyss didn't really show they were planning on changing it either.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Again, you can do Grim and hopeless without having people live in a trash heap. Those that have seen the entire Paragon City know that there is considerably more to it than just what the AE has to offer, and those that have actually seen the entire Rogue Isles know that the same can be said for those maps. And yes, every zone, including just off screen of the Grandville tower map has the people in the Rogue Isles living in a landfill. Not over top a closed one, living amongst piles of trash on fire.
Grim and gritty doesn't have to mean filthy. |
Also, another problem is that what you're asking for would need an actual change to the zone geometry to remove the landfill look - which would involve way more wrok than just adding brighter grass or brick textures to the existing surfaces.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But don't you get all those things already in some form in CoV? |
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
Evil enough that civillians flee in my wake. Evil enough that my enemies die. Evil enough that my enemies attack me for more than the color of my tights.
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Like civilians running away from you on mayhem misisons, and missions where you actually get to murder people? Plus, I'm sure Longbow attack you for more than just your fashion sense
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Hell, the Abyss is still a vast improvement over most of CoV as far as cleanliness goes.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I know - but like I said, it's an art style choice, and the Abyss didn't really show they were planning on changing it either.
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| Also, another problem is that what you're asking for would need an actual change to the zone geometry to remove the landfill look - which would involve way more work than just adding brighter grass or brick textures to the existing surfaces. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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It still has that faded, dirty looking evil grass though, instead of the bright, clean heroic grass that's on the other side of the fence |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Hell, the Abyss is still a vast improvement over most of CoV as far as cleanliness goes.
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| Actually, a good share of the trash in the zones is extra layers of texture over clean, and complete looking walls and sidewalks. We've seen that thanks to glitches from early in CoV's release. So, if anything, it would improve the look AND the performance to just remove some of the trash, where revamping Hero zones actually requires texture remodeling. |
Sure, you'd still be working for Recluse, but at least your actions would be having an actual impact on the game world
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Exactly. It still had GRASS. Granted the lack of huge piles of trash everywhere may be more the Devouring Earth's doing rather than Arachnos, but it's STILL cleaner than most of the rest of the game.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It still has that faded, dirty looking evil grass though, instead of the bright, clean heroic grass that's on the other side of the fence
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Maybe that could be a new VEAT - an Arachnos Sanitation Offcier? Like Reclsue could be trying to find the person destined to clean up the Rogue Isles, and as you complete arcs and missions where you have to empty dumpsters, scrub off graffiti and unblock the sewer system, you'd see actual changes to the zones, with the current landfill look being retextured into something cleaner. Sure, you'd still be working for Recluse, but at least your actions would be having an actual impact on the game world
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B) Even those few that ARE cool with the idea of working for Arachnos aren't playing this game to be a damn garbage man. Hell that's the reason why I refuse to play Terrance Dobbs even though that means I don't get access to the (in my opinion) much better contact Dr Forrester. Dobbs is a level 40 contact that is nothing more than Dale Gribble from King of the Hill. His only concern is killing bugs, and being the only one that's good at killing bugs (with the help of the player). Granted, the bugs are over seven feet tall and walk erect, but the slightest hint of intrigue and it's "Oop, better leave that be. Don't care what they are, as long as someone pays me to lay the bug traps.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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So what you mean is that all Villaisn really want is a little garden to call their own? |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Exactly. It still had GRASS. Granted the lack of huge piles of trash everywhere may be more the Devouring Earth's doing rather than Arachnos, but it's STILL cleaner than most of the rest of the game.
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A) You're still assuming everyone that wants City of Villains wants nothing more than to be an underling. B) Even those few that ARE cool with the idea of working for Arachnos aren't playing this game to be a damn garbage man. Hell that's the reason why I refuse to play Terrance Dobbs even though that means I don't get access to the (in my opinion) much better contact Dr Forrester. Dobbs is a level 40 contact that is nothing more than Dale Gribble from King of the Hill. His only concern is killing bugs, and being the only one that's good at killing bugs (with the help of the player). Granted, the bugs are over seven feet tall and walk erect, but the slightest hint of intrigue and it's "Oop, better leave that be. Don't care what they are, as long as someone pays me to lay the bug traps. |
As for how independant a Villain can be in the game, I think you'll have to accept that you're always going to have Recluse as a boss in some form or another, because that's the way the game's been designed and set up.
But being an enforcer for him could be made into a better experience - like he trusts you enough to give you pretty much a free hand - so you can still be a badass villain without totally being your own boss.
Like Darth Vader was just an enforcer for the Emperor, but he was still a totally badass villain, so maybe more feedom along that line might make red side players happier?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I want to go back to something that VileTerror said back on message 142. Vile wrote about having villains that reflected a vast array of motives and drives. I want to echo that. I want each of my characters, hero or villain, to be who they are. And, importantly, many of my "villains" do not see themselves as villains.
I have villains (and heroes) who do what they do because they believe it is the best alternative available to them. Pattern Widow, when a little boy, was rescued from a burning school by a Night Widow. He always wanted to be "heroic" like that Night Widow when he grew up, and was thrilled when Arachnos started accepting males into the Widows. He believes Arachnos to be flawed but better than the alternative (chaos or an Imperial American occupation). It's important to keep in mind that he's not a hero by Paragon standards. He's willing to do things that most Paragonians would find repellent in order to preserve the social order. But Pattern Widow doesn't view himself as evil. He views himself as good (and he's not alone in this, there are those in the Rogue Isles who would agree with his assessment of himself).
I have villains who are amoral, don't feel bound by social constraints, and who follow any destructive whim. But Pattern Widow does not fall into that category.
Because this really strongly reflects how I feel, let me quote VileTerror:
"Some are sadistic. Some are masochistic. Some are misguided. Some are trapped (for now. Thank for almight Devs for Going Rogue!) Some choose to be where they are. Some are simpletons. Some are grand schemers. Some are just thugs for hire. Some are selfish. some are selfless. Some don't even have a concept of "self." Some are amoral. Some have their own morality. Some are even immoral. Some see themselves for what they are. Some don't."
Vile's words here reflect not only my villains, but also my heroes. My characters don't live in a black-and-white world. They live in a complex world with different kinds of freedom of action and movement available to each of them depending on history, geography, age, race, class, gender, and sexuality. Some I admire, others I don't. But they are each individuals.
I never understood why folks don't like Hardcase, for example. Not everyone in the Rogue Isles is itching to destroy. I want content that offers possibility to all kinds of characters. I want a range of contacts with different motives and opportunities. The gameplay experience is richer for it.
(And just how is it that someone who does not even play villains feels free to jump into a thread labeled "(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?" and ends up making almost 20% of the posts in this topic? This had been a useful, interesting, productive discussion for quite a number of posts for a long time. Let's please focus on the productive parts of this discussion.)
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That's a stupid conclusion and a stupid rule. Heroes don't all have Statesman as a boss in any form. Why do villains have to have a boss but heroes don't? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As for how independant a Villain can be in the game, I think you'll have to accept that you're always going to have Recluse as a boss in some form or another, because that's the way the game's been designed and set up.
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If you really think that a) this is the way things should be and b) this is the way things will always be, I don't think you know the first thing about either writing or game design.
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Yes, they do. At least, from what I've seen.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
That's a stupid conclusion and a stupid rule. Heroes don't all have Statesman as a boss in any form.
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Though they certainly have more independence than Villains do (Oh, cruelest of ironies!), every single Hero is someone that answered Statesman's spam email asking for help with the reconstruction effort. Not to mention the fact that Statesman is our Superman/CaptainAmerica/Positron, and that it's an inherent implication that we all hope to be as good as him someday.
It's a more willing and loving subservience, but it's always been my perception that it exists.
(Again: Haven't played that much Heroside compared to most of you)
The last interview with War Witch suggests that the two sides in Preatoria are more about shades of gray than black and white.
Even so, I would have liked to see villains have personal strongholds and some kind of system for measuring their influence in the Rogue Isles. Like doing missions for contacts will give you villainous control points that you can use to undertake various schemes from building up your personal base of operations, to major assaults on Paragon City. Even having a kind of RTS system where you set up base defenses to repel invasions from heroes similar to Dungeon Keeper.
And they might add NPC staff for bases too, as that's been requested a lot, so even if you were still being ordered around by Recluse, you could come home to your lair and take out your frustration by ordering your own minions around
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork