(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'd say that, escapist or not, being the main protagonist in your own story is the most important thing. Even if things don't go your way and your plan doesn't turn out quite like how you 'planned', the point is that you are still the one moving things forward.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Certainly. Having written a couple of arcs, myself, I honestly wouldn't ask for more. Well, OK, I WOULD ask for more, but I wouldn't demand and expect anything beyond that. Like I said, it's contacts' mouths that bug me the most, because they treat us like garbage. It's really demoralising when everyone treats your villain like garbage when he should be the one treating everyone like dirt. I realise it may be realistically unrealistic to expect that as our villains would be crushed in the real world, but this is not the real world. This is an escapist fantasy where it just makes sense for things to go my way.
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Some of the most interesting villain moments are, in fact, when their plans go off track and they have to try to correct them or even when they work too well. How the story ends isn't quite as important as how it starts and how you are regarded by the NPCs you interact with.
And I tend to disagree with the notion that this will only appeal to a niche set of players. As of now...villains is already a small niche that needs to be expanded.
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Ideally, what would be available would be a selection of "pre-fab" rooms, with items and (bare) decorations already placed to create the desired effect, with the advanced editor still available to tweak (or even build from scratch) as desired. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
If the devs did dedicate some time and effort to bases, I would want to see a simplified version of the editor available, one that creates pre-decorated and pre-functionalized "macro" rooms.
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AE seems to be working pretty well, so they could even turn this design over to players (maybe with a few dev-created choices as base templates to start) and allow base builders to create pre-fabs to be placed in a database for others to use.
I'd advocate something similar to the costume prefabs and files: prefabs nominated by the community and placed directly into the editor for people who want to get a functional and thematic base rolled out quickly, and then the ability to save each room as a simple text file that can be shared and loaded in the editor, so that if you see a room you like in someone else's base you can ask for the file and quickly replicate it in your own.
If bases are going to be a major dev focus, it might also be wise to ensure that everyone has access to at least some customizable space of their own. Tying bases to villain groups may have seemed like a natural fit, but one of the consequences was to place a limit on the number of people editing bases - and make bases a non-feature for the solo player.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Not really, no. Exalted manages having player characters become some of the most powerful beings in a setting multiple times the size of Earth rather easily. The focus just changes from more powerful people antagonizing the players to what the players do with godlike power (and the scary moral choices that can come with that.) Not saying it'd work well for an MMO... but there are definitely games out there that manage to have themes and stories without requiring somebody capable of pushing the players around.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
This also rings true for tabletop roleplaying games. One of the first rules I learned, and I learned it the hard way, was that there should always be someone with 'a bigger stick'.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
This is a universe with time travel and alternate dimensions.
We can all conquer and/or destroy the world; including the heroes.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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In fact, we all have. Heroes have that one alternate dimension where your evil self killed everyone and destroyed everyone for no reason above simple dickishness, and the ghosts of the people of that world still haven't forgotten. Villains have that as a central point in Time After Time, especially in Ghost Widow's case where you find a world destroyed, everyone dead and you yourself buried and decayed, locked in battle with Recluse.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
This is a universe with time travel and alternate dimensions.
We can all conquer and/or destroy the world; including the heroes. |
Basically, if my hero/villain alternative is badass enough to KILL an entire alternate dimension, then surely MY version of the hero/villain is good enough to wipe out/rule a pocket dimension or two, right? I mean, as long as only I have the keys to the teleporter and the coordinates to the place, other people don't have to be bothered by my megalomania, right?
In fact, I love this idea A LOT, specifically because it ought to be doable with current technology and only a narrative fudge.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's actually a pretty cool path to take. In a lot of ways, that's what Mass Effect does. Granted, Shepard is not an all-powerful omnipotent GOD, but he is above the law, he is VERY powerful in his own right and he's basically able to either destroy the lives of most people he meets, or improve them significantly. That's the sort of moral choice system Mass Effect goes for. It's not a choice between whose orders to follow, it's a choice about what to do with your power and your status.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
Not really, no. Exalted manages having player characters become some of the most powerful beings in a setting multiple times the size of Earth rather easily. The focus just changes from more powerful people antagonizing the players to what the players do with godlike power (and the scary moral choices that can come with that.) Not saying it'd work well for an MMO... but there are definitely games out there that manage to have themes and stories without requiring somebody capable of pushing the players around.
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And again - Superman is just about the most powerful "thing" in his neck of the woods, but that doesn't seem to have diminished his popularity, or indeed diminished people's desire to play a game as him. A DC MMO, as it were.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The funny thing is that when I make suggestions based off things that have worked in other games, someone on the forums will up and say how they can't work because they are not MMOs etc. I don't expect it to work the same way. But that doesn't mean that an idea can't be built off of and expanded/improved/altered so it can work in a different game genre.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's actually a pretty cool path to take. In a lot of ways, that's what Mass Effect does. Granted, Shepard is not an all-powerful omnipotent GOD, but he is above the law, he is VERY powerful in his own right and he's basically able to either destroy the lives of most people he meets, or improve them significantly. That's the sort of moral choice system Mass Effect goes for. It's not a choice between whose orders to follow, it's a choice about what to do with your power and your status.
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People expect different things from games these days. The idea of choice is a very popular theme for most gamers. As you pointed out with Mass Effect, the idea that you can choose how to proceed helps to define your character in a way that a simple bio that people may or may not read can never do.
Regardless of if you like open world games or not, I don't think that the open world is the main draw to people so much as being able to choose what and how you do things. Fallout 3 and Oblivion are examples of this. I think that Going Rogue has a lot of potential to usher in this aspect of gameplay, but I also want to see it reflected in the stories and arcs of COH and COV.
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But that can still only be a "side quest" in the game - the actual game world has to be designed to stop villains from doing that, because while there can be limitless instances, there's only one real game world, and players have to share that space, so it's impossible to let any single person affect the world.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
This is a universe with time travel and alternate dimensions.
We can all conquer and/or destroy the world; including the heroes. |
They can do all kinds of cool stuff with portals and time travel, but no matter what they do in those instances, when they return to the normal zones, they're back in the real world, and back to being just one among thousands and thousands of villains.
MMOs are based around the idea of co-operation and sharing a common space - vilalins are about domination and conquest - it's really very hard to put them together.
There has to be a limit on just what villains are capable of, otherwise, the game couldn't work.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And who hasn't wanted Renegade interrupts during some of those contact conversations?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's actually a pretty cool path to take. In a lot of ways, that's what Mass Effect does. Granted, Shepard is not an all-powerful omnipotent GOD, but he is above the law, he is VERY powerful in his own right and he's basically able to either destroy the lives of most people he meets, or improve them significantly.
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Hardcase: I know you're in on it, and I'm prepared to level a considerable amount of firepower in your direction if you don't help me fix it. Oh, I can do it. You don't hunt demons for a living without picking up a few tricks. Prevent the destruction of the obelisk. Or say good-bye to life as--
Villain Renegade Interrupt: ... look, kid. I'm a supervillain. *horrible beating commences*
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I think as far as dev plans go, villain lairs, like hero apartments, are covered by bases - we're way more likely to see an improvement to an already existing system than a whole enw system that would overlap the existing one.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Ideally, what would be available would be a selection of "pre-fab" rooms, with items and (bare) decorations already placed to create the desired effect, with the advanced editor still available to tweak (or even build from scratch) as desired.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Here's a question for you. If these are side quests, what is "the main quest?"|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But that can still only be a "side quest" in the game - the actual game world has to be designed to stop villains from doing that, because while there can be limitless instances, there's only one real game world, and players have to share that space, so it's impossible to let any single person affect the world.
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| They can do all kinds of cool stuff with portals and time travel, but no matter what they do in those instances, when they return to the normal zones, they're back in the real world, and back to being just one among thousands and thousands of villains. |
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MMOs are based around the idea of co-operation and sharing a common space - vilalins are about domination and conquest - it's really very hard to put them together. There has to be a limit on just what villains are capable of, otherwise, the game couldn't work. |
You can argue semantics all you want. This is the reality of the game. This is how things already are. I'm just asking for the developers to finally admit it and work towards that, rather than worrying about "what ifs." If everyone can beat Dr. Vahzilok and be the one who beat Dr. Vahzilok, what are you really trying to say?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I just want to thank Sam for these excellent posts and rebutting these terrible excuses some are coming up with to say it can't be done.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I agree, and the same goes for heroes as applied to the shared portion of the game world. Heroes don't stop Outcasts from spawning after they defeat Frostfire, after all.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There has to be a limit on just what villains are capable of, otherwise, the game couldn't work.
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But I think what people (especially redside players) want to see is a system that allows them to set a goal (and face it, for villains it usually boils down to destroy the world or rule the world...or at least retire in luxury with a harem), and take distinct steps toward it, even if they can't ultimately acheive it (although they could as alternate reality of some kind).
As a villain, you should be able to earn respect and fear by making specific acheivements (probably badges), and that earned respect should be reflected in how you are addressed/interacted with by certain npcs.
It would be grand if you could go through an SF and earn a badge that caused Crab Spiders to salute you or even flee you instead of aggro on you.
It would also be grand if I could go on an SF that allowed me to build a gigantic Orbital Death Laser, hold the world for ransom, and then have a group of npc heroes destroy the laser and confront me in my lair, which collapses during the attack, allowing me to escape to plot again.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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An interesting point to make about villains and their evil plots:|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
But I think what people (especially redside players) want to see is a system that allows them to set a goal (and face it, for villains it usually boils down to destroy the world or rule the world...or at least retire in luxury with a harem), and take distinct steps toward it, even if they can't ultimately acheive it (although they could as alternate reality of some kind).
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Evil plots are interesting as they develop. They are rarely interesting after they have succeeded. If the plot is to "destroy the world," that's for obvious reasons, but even a plot to rule the world isn't as interesting after the fact. It's basically a whole new ballgame that has to start from scratch.
Some people worry about giving villains the ability to weave elaborate, status-quo-changing plots, because of the consequences that will have when they complete them. Well, the solution to that is... Don't let them. Say I want to destroy the world. I've crossed my Ts and dotted my Is and I need a megabomb, a computer to run it that doesn't exist yet, more Unobtanium ore than exists in the entire world and a tunnel dug into the core of the planet. That's a lot of work, so I better get to it! Thing is, that's the sort of thing that's going to define my entire career. I'm never really going to be done with that, because if I AM, I might as well just delete the character, because there's nothing he could conceivably do more, and not for lack of a world to do it in.
This is something I actually think about every time I make a new villain. What is going to motivate that villain to keep pressing forward? What goal would this villain have that wouldn't have been achieved before I even started writing about him? What could be this thing he is trying to do that takes a lifetime, that is his main reason for existence? For some it's simple things like world domination or destruction. For another of mine, it's the invention of a specific kind of technology which provides unlimited power. His quest is to find and examine the world's technology and basically work on his tech. For another it's the elimination of all "evil," for a definition of evil that encompasses practically everyone who isn't him or his direct followers. That's a tall order, so his whole life he'll be gathering supporters and leading crusades. For another still it's much simpler - eternal life through constant life-extending practices via Necromancy, as well as the rebuilding of his original power.
The point is, I don't envision these characters ever actually getting to that point, because there would really be very little for me to actually do with them after the fact. Good characters, both hero and villain, need some kind of motivation, and unless the game wants out and out END, which most MMOs don't, it won't really let us complete that motivation. Hence, big villainous plots can be left dangling and uncompleted, while smaller ones, like building an island fortress, stealing The Jewel of Madeupia, building a better mouse trap, replacing your brain with a hamster in a hamster wheel and so forth, those can be achievable, if only because they change things that don't affect other people.
However, even though I don't expect major plans to be achievable, that's not really the point. It's not destroying the world that's fun. It's trying to that makes things exciting. Trying to, and indeed failing. It's what keeps comic books rolling
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know, the Heroes of Might and Magic town building idea that was brought up is a really good one.
It would introduce a mini-game seperate from the level grind, which is apparently something quite a few players have complained about. It could be implemented in such a way that everybody's got the option for one (even heroes, with a whole Fortress of Solitude, or Batcave approach). And it could be a really nifty time-sink.
Of course, the resources to implement that might be astronomical. Still, it is absolutely an idea with merit that should really be looked in to.
Anyone want to write up a proposal design document for posting?
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Asking "how high?" when Relcuse says "jump" |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's a question for you. If these are side quests, what is "the main quest?"
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| So? You can say the same about instances and that doesn't stop them from being tailored to the particular player. Just now in a mission I was doing, I found a clone... Of me! Soon as I left the mission, I was back in Sharkhead, but that didn't seem to do much to diminish the effect. |
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Yeah, if City of Heroes or City of Villains were ever conceived of being about "sharing a common space," that idea got booted out the window so hard five years ago it's probably still in high orbit. THE WHOLE GAME, for practically any interpretation of the term you want to use, is instanced. We have outdoor zones that we use to travel from point to point and occasionally waste time with delivery missions in, and ever so rarely we fight a giant monster or do some hunting. However, THE PLOT takes place in instanced missions, unique to each team, unique to each person, tailored for the small-scale, private, unshared experience. You can argue semantics all you want. This is the reality of the game. This is how things already are. I'm just asking for the developers to finally admit it and work towards that, rather than worrying about "what ifs." If everyone can beat Dr. Vahzilok and be the one who beat Dr. Vahzilok, what are you really trying to say? |
You can arrest Countess Crey, but zone directly to Brickstown after you've done it, and you'll find the place crawling with Crey, and the general public being unaware of how corrupt the corporation is.
Pass through IP on your way to PI to rescue Statesman, and you'll see him standing on the deck of a ship - take down Reichsman, and you'll see the 5th Column successfully continuing their comeback on the streets.
Nothing the players do affects the game - the game only progresses when the devs move it forwards - missions are like sone shot "what if" and "elseworld" stories - the real world - the "continuity" and "canon" - is static - like a photo, rather than a movie.
Dr. V. will always be carving people up, Countess Crey will always be running her company, Statesman will always be a prisoner of Tyrant while still handing out a TF, Cimerora will always be threatened by Romulus, Frostfire will always be lurking in his lair, Recluse and Arachnos will always be ruling the Rogue Isles and threatening Paragon City - until the devs decide to change the game world.
The only people who are "in sync" are players who've done all the content at leats once, and band new plauyers who've just enters Outbreak - everyone in between is at different stages of playing through the game, so the game has to be set up to allow for all of those different stages - it has to allow for a team of 8 fighting Hero 1 while somone in Skyway is wondering who the Lost really are - it has to allow you sell your newest HO at WW while a few hundred yards away someone's just gone "wow" seeing the Atlas globe for the first time, and discovered that the blonde girl in blue and red is called Ms. Liberty - it has to allow you to defeat Recluse and Arachnos while a new Destined One has just been busted out of the Zig by Arachnos - it has to allow for every stage of every player's experience of the playing through the game.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Villains don't have to win, but they have to try to do their thing.
Spoiler: During the new villain arcs, you try to take over a cloning facility and grow an army of yourself. This does not succeed: the lab goes up in flames. But you tried! And in the end you come out a little bit ahead, and the one who ruined your plans got ruined right back. You bowed to no man. That's a satisfactory villain story.
The fact is, those who argue against the possibility of story arcs in which villains choose and carry out their own plans are making a losing argument, because these arcs exist in the game right now. It's a done deal, it's there, it's real, and it's great. There is no technical, mechanical, or fictional reason why we could not have more like this.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Agreed. The ending wrapped everything up and embarrassed "me". It was very "Team Rocket blasting off again"...|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Spoiler: During the new villain arcs, you try to take over a cloning facility and grow an army of yourself. This does not succeed: the lab goes up in flames. But you tried! And in the end you come out a little bit ahead, and the one who ruined your plans got ruined right back. You bowed to no man. That's a satisfactory villain story.
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... but it was still one of my favorite missions. I don't mind losing. As a villain in a comic book world, that's my destiny. I get that.
I do, however, like feeling like I had a fun night on the town before being shackled in.
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That's like telling Heroes their "main quest" is making sure they meet their quote of parking tickets.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Asking "how high?" when Relcuse says "jump"
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Quoted for emphasis.
| The fact is, those who argue against the possibility of story arcs in which villains choose and carry out their own plans are making a losing argument, because these arcs exist in the game right now. It's a done deal, it's there, it's real, and it's great. There is no technical, mechanical, or fictional reason why we could not have more like this. |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
On bases - I think it might have been neat if there were areas that represented some of the bases of major groups in the game that became accessible through certain badges/accolades. Like Pocket D in a way, but maybe a little more gated. Or like the Midnighter Club, but with functionality (kinda similar to how the Vanguard base works too, really).
Earned the Freedom Phalanx Reserve accolade? Ok - now you have access to the Freedom Phalanx base. Like any good base it probably has some functionality too - some tables, teleporters, etc. But, you don't have to worry about building it. And maybe you run into a few signature heroes there. Have a base for the Vindicators. Heck, have one for the Civic Squad (might be a handy thing for Vigilantes spending time in the Rogue Isles to have access to).
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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It depends on the character, but for a comic book villain I think the words '...and their families and pets' should be appended to your #10. On average, that is.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
So, on a scale of 1 - 10, at what level of evil do you feel the Devs should average when writing stories?
10 - I want to slaughter everyone that doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes... and then everyone that does. |
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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No one's asking for the game to recognise we conquered Recluse and kicked Arachnos out. No one's got pie-in-the-sky dreams thinking our personal actions will ever be truly reflected on the open game world (except maybe in regards to how enemy groups treat us; this is technology that exists in MMOs, just not this one). |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Nothing the players do affects the game
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So please stop pretending that's what we're saying, GG, because it's not. You're better than that.
Simply put, if they can make those gigantic messes for them and can presumably clean them up (presumably because I have yet to see it happen), then they can surely tweak the narrative of how newer content, such as the "Experiencing Some Delays Storm" storyline, is presented. If there's one thing I've ever learned about writing, it's that a story plan is just a guideline. What you actually write down can twist and pull that guideline in very serious ways while still keeping it factually consistent.
All's I'm saying is that if they can't keep their own story straight, then why not curve a bit of it our way?