(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?

Except in this case we're simply going from:

"My character wouldn't take orders from them!"

to

"My character wouldn't have that as their plan!"

The argument isn't as strong as you apparently think. Shifting the issue doesn't resolve it.

I thought Mayhem missions already had that as the basic goal in them?

Is she really? Because sometimes the things she says make me wonder...

In any case, what Sam, Kitsune and the others are saying is that the stuff to make villains feel like villains now is doable. There are other mechanics and game systems we'd all like to see get put into place on top of that, but going forward, story arcs for villains should always be about the choices you make as a villain. Not a lackey.

Here's the thing, the NPCs are more convincing villains...even the lackeys. The Notorious Doctor Creed still wants to take over the world, even though there are probably umpteen things standing in his way(including Arachnos and you). You still get the sense that he's working towards that mad scientist dream. Scheming and plotting and making things happen. It doesn't matter that he's in the shadow of Arachnos because he plans to stomp all over them once his 'genius master plan' comes to fruition.

He has a sense of purpose about him that you don't get to portray as a villain even though you're more powerful and capable.

It's not about you actually taking over Paragon City, it's about getting to give it the old college try, even if you fail at it.

But what you're asking for is for your own constant failure and imcompetence - if villains can't affect the game world, then their schemes will always have to end in total failure - your plan to take over the world, or build a moon laser to wipe out Paragon Ciity, or empty the vaults at Fort Knox will always end in 100% failure, because success would mean the game world would have to change, and failure would keep the game world as it is.
Right now, the game lets you successfully kill, kidnap, rob and destroy while working for Arachnos - you're given various evil tasks, and you carry them out with 100% success.
Would it really be more fun to swap you career of successful evil for one of failed evil just because Recluse won't say "please" or "thank you" or invite you round for a beer to watch the game?

Not necessarily.SPOILERS When I had only finished Dean MacArthur's storyline, I had no idea I'd be losing my cloning facility. I knew that I now owned something that was reaaaaaaaaaaallly cool but not actually relevant to anything. I was perfectly prepared to keep the entire damn thing as a nice lil trophy.

Prizes that work as vague concepts work, too. Some examples:

• You have successfully destroyed that one planet that was lookin' at you funny.
  
• The hero you only saw in missions is now dead and will never be seen again.
  
• You are now this much richer. It's a shame that this game doesn't track money.
  
• "For the next week, the newspaper headlines will read only of the reconstruction efforts in response to your horrible spree".
  
• And even though Statesman will continue to fight on now, you know that you've destroyed his immortality necklace (or whatever), and that, one day, he will fall.

Off the top of my head.

This is where your willful ignorance shines. Since you have refused to step foot in Rogue Isles you aren't aware that the majority of the plots in City of Villains actually DO work. We do keep Council Vampyres out of Port Oaks. We do convert the young hero Pyriss to Villainy. We do fight and defeat all of the Vindicators AND the Freedom Phalanx, both separately and en-masse.

And after each grand task, we move on to the next person...who still treats us like common slime fresh out of the Zig. Player Character Villains are generally on the same level as Player Character Heroes. It's just as easy for Villains to steamroller over entire armies of enemies. Yet, we are never given even a fraction of the respect that Heroes get on their path. The contacts always have this nebulous power behind them that is often not even defined or named, just that everyone EVERYONE knows that the Player Villain is not, can not, and will never be a threat.

Tell me, would you be as staunch a defender of City of Heroes if it insulted your intelligence and abilities at every turn, and every level?

EDIT: Out of my examples, only one of them, fighting the Phalanx en-masse, has anything to do with Arachnos. And yet, it's still the Player being ordered like a low rent lackey.

No...no, more like this;

"How far do you wanted to be blasted into orbit? I'm sure you'd just looove to try that immortality schtick on, y'know, having no oxygen to breath, no food or drink, and sure as hell no minions. You hearing me, Lord Leggy? Stay the hell outta my way. Or I'm going to get myself my team, and bring all kinds of godawful technological hell to your doorstep. And you are going to reap the whirlwind.
I'm watching you... Your Lordship."

Thats pretty much what Alpha would say to Recluse if he treated him like a minion. He doesnt care about Arachnos world domination plans...so long as they stay the frag outta his way.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I would cry tears of joy to pound Hardcase into the ground.

IMHO? Yes, exactly this.

Allow me to build a death laser only to have meddling heroes destroy it (even though I can beat them up because I have IOs or whatever).

Let me summon a Cosmic Horror from a Tome of Ancient Eldritch lore only to have to kill it myself when it decides to eat me first.

Let me channel the Universal Harmonics so that I have momentary omnipotence, only to lose it all because my finite mind can't handle it.

In short, let me be Doctor Doom/Luthor/Darth Vader if I choose, in addition to 'succeeding' at doing the existing jobs offered by Arachnos.

I would love to get hurled into a vat of lava in a cut scene, only to have the npc heroes go 'no one could survive that' while I escape through a hatch I had prepared for such an occaision.

The only trick is to do enough of such content so that there is plenty of variety. Not everyone is into building Giant Robots with each of their villain characters. But dammit, I certainly want to build one, even if it's just to have Statesman turn it into scrap metal with one mighty punch.

GG, I'm sorry, but I'm being serious here. As other people have said, you haven't played Redside. Ever. You really don't know what the heck you are talking about when it comes to redside. Period.

Arachnos is a really BAD game mechnaism, shoe-horned in by Jack. Yes, they are cool. I really like Arachnos, myself. But the way you are FORCED to kow-tow to them is not, and that is what really should go.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

No, it's pretty much exactly as strong as I think, because I'm not addressing the issue of choice. I'm well aware that the options available to us will still be finite, and I'm okay with that. There are already complaints that the new arcs don't cover every possible character backstory and motivation. They can't. What they do is reverse the relationship between villain and contact, and that's what I'm asking for more of. It's still a limited menu, but instead of picking my boss, I'm picking my plan.

I'd like to expand on how the existing game systems, with no mechanical changes, only updates to text, could do more to make villains protagonists.

Scenario: You have just completed a Mayhem mission, and your newspaper contact is introducing some story arc contacts.

NOW: I think you're ready to work for the big players now, $villain. $contact has some jobs for a heavy hitter, and you might have what it takes. Just don't get him mad, and you could go places.

NEW: I saw what you did on the news, $villain, and so have a lot of other people. $contact has been asking if I can get you in touch with him. It seems like he has a big plan and needs someone of your caliber to pull it off.

The arc can then proceed using the same enemies, the same objectives, and the same mechanical results. The difference is in the attitude.

The one place where I do feel it is important that new options be made available is in the 40-50 villain game. Whereas before this point you had a wide variety of factions to work with and have had ample opportunities to work directly against Arachnos's interests, once you reach Grandville all paths lead to Recluse and end there. That's simply not necessary: it's an artifact of a design decision, not an inevitable consequence of the game's fiction. Particularly rankling are the patron powers, which only become available once you ally yourself with a lieutenant. Why not conspire with enemies of those lieutenants to steal their power? It's not like Recluse would even mind: his lieutenants gained their position by being the strongest, and if they're not strong enough to hold onto what they have, he's not going to step in to help them.

"Better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven." -- Satan, Paradise Lost

How villainous do I want to be? I dunno, Satan seems like a pretty good role model!

Serving in hell sounds like a nice halfway point then

But is the only problem the way the contacts talk to you? Like if they said "please", "thank you" and called you "sir", would that make villains feel better?

If City of Heroes contacts with attitudes of the City of Villains contacts...

Cadao Kestrel:
Instead of "I can't stress the importance of this mission strongly enough. Please, destroy the Circle's portal before it's too late!" heroes will get "I doubt you can handle this but perhaps you will surprise me and not mess this up too badly."

Or from Send the Envoy of Shadow back to Hell his current briefing of "The research is complete. We have the Envoy of Shadow's True Name. If you're ready, it's time to end the Circle's negotiations. It won't be easy, you'll be facing the Envoy of Shadow again as well as the representatives from the Circle of Thorns. If you're ready, I have all that you'll need to send the Envoy of Shadows back to Hell. I'll call for an emergency force field to give you time to get there. I'm counting on you to end this, once and for all. "
becomes
"You probably didn't get this while you were doing all I asked you to do but now that I have the Envoy of Shadow's True Name you can go stop the Circle negotiations for me. Without what I have for you, you wouldn't stand a chance but maybe with some luck you can pull this off. "

Yes! Yes, it would! It's by far not the only problem - see also, everything else in this thread - but being treated like a legitimate threat and equal partner would do a great deal to improve the villain game. It's not that complicated: when people respect you and offer their help, that feels good, whether you're hero or villain. When people treat you without respect and demand your service, that is not pleasant. Does this surprise you?

Only? No.

But having Contacts get more respectful would be a big step up; the more so if the degree was actually based on your accomplishments (levels, badges, 'contract bar', whatever).

I think the bigger thing is some sort of sub-system that allows you to actually feel proactive. Mayhem missions is a good step in this direction, but I'm thinking a sub-sytem based on SFs you can choose or even something based on crafting that would let you work towards some grand but ultimately unacheivable goal.

Ruling Heaven---Serving in Heaven---Ruling Hell---Serving in Hell.

You need to work on your definition of 'half-way'.

For me? YES! Can't stress it enough. The devs constant talks on 'balance' make it clear that Player Villains are supposed to be on about an even power level with Player Heroes, yet the treatment isn't even close.

NPC Heroes like Positron are respected around the world, while NPC Villains are seriously considered as a global threat to peace if not life itself. Player Heroes, can eventually reach the same level of respect, even getting a congratulations and thank you from Statesman himself. Meanwhile, Player Villains are never treated any differently than a Blood Brother Brawler.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Haha, no, really... Some good stuff in here.
Swellguy, those are perfect examples of the difference in NPC dialog. True examples and not exaggerated in the slightest.

All that being said... I suppose this is why I play Redside almost entirely through Paper Missions (Except for the Patron Arcs... *sigh*).

Really though... And this is just for me... Not everyone is a Role-Player... and not everyone who is a Role-Player shares this same playstyle... I don't really recognize the story arcs as part of my personal canon and all that.
Playing redside, I definitely use those blinders much more than when on blueside.

Also, yes, GG... I would love to play a game that allowed me to play as a villain that would fail at a 100% chance of all that you listed.
That's part of the fun of playing a villain (See? We're not all without some merit according to your own virtues).

But... meh... I agree mostly with Malfaz.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

For some reason, I've suddenly started picturing player Villains as JD to Recluse's Dr. Cox

But more seriously, I think the whole Villain set up means that you'll never be treated the same as Heroes - because while Statesman wouldn't have a problem with anyone else being called his equal, Recluse would most likely view anyone caled his equal as a major threat to him - it's back to the problem of villains not being good at working together, and putting the player villains into a position where they can ask "if I'm the equal of Relcuse, why can't I try and overthrow him?".

No, I think you really nailed it there. We come into our own, but we're always in the shadow.

Edit: Your entire explanation is exactly what people have been complaining about.

I would recommend making people Recluse's equals, but then adding a storyline reason that, for political or other purposes, it would be to disadvantage to challenge him. Like, say, he's the only thing keeping the Rogue Isles in check, and that's where we keep all our stuff?

There are other ways to make it work.

If the devs would use the new gender recogniton tech to make Recluse call male villains by a different girl's name each time he talked to you, that would be awesome beyond words - whistling to get your attention would be an added bonus

But wouldn't that still make villains feel like second rankers? Like they'd be called Recluse's equal, but the game would still stop them from trying to replace him. Reclsue took over Arachnos, so why can't the player villains try taking it over from him?
Or is there a really, really good in-game lore reason we could maybe come up with here to explain away the restriction?

So? Did you somehow fail to read where I said this was a GOOD arc and a GOOD example of what I want?

[quite]That Dr. V and his faction will still be in the game - that defeating and arresting him has no imapact on the game world - because MMOs can't allow one player to affect the experience of all the other players.
You can arrest Countess Crey, but zone directly to Brickstown after you've done it, and you'll find the place crawling with Crey, and the general public being unaware of how corrupt the corporation is.
Pass through IP on your way to PI to rescue Statesman, and you'll see him standing on the deck of a ship - take down Reichsman, and you'll see the 5th Column successfully continuing their comeback on the streets.[/quote]

So what? Nowhere in anything I've said did I complain about that. I specifically talked about instanced missions and the stories they tell. I'm fine with them not having an effect on the shared world. How many times do I need to write that before you're going to read it?

Riddle me this: Who cares? Go back and quote me from any place where I said I did. Go back and find a quote that says I want to change the canon world, then put it here with a link to the original post. Because I can guarantee I never said this. GG, I mean no offence, but you spend too much time listening to your own ideas of what people might be saying and too little time actually reading the words I'm putting on the forum. Read more carefully, please.

Let me say it again - I do not want to alter the world for other people. I do not want to affect other people. I do not want my exploits to be seen by others. I do not need others' recognition. Let the world stay exactly like it is. I don't mind. Let other people repeat the same things I've done. I don't mind. Let villain groups stay on the street after I've taken down their leaders. I don't mind. There's the usual explanation that it will take a while for them to disperse, and "a while" just happens to take forever.

Do you get me? Are you reading this? Should I say it again? I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THE STATIC WORLD. I WANT MY STORIES ABOUT MYSELF TO TAKE PART IN INSTANCES NOT AFFECTING THE REAL WORLD. Please, take the time to read this over several times, because I really don't want to explain why it doesn't matter that our actions don't affect the real world and how the game can fake it anyway.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't know if I'm some kind of jabbering idiot who's incapable of relating a simple thought, or if you just skim over everything I've written, picking up only the words I type in all caps. Because everything I've described fits very well into what you're presenting as a rebuttal.

Just like I can be busy defeating Dr. Vahzilok while someone else is still trying to figure out if he's a real doctor and someone still else has already fought and forgotten him, so I can have an instance where I flip Daos the birdie and have to fight out of an Arachnos jail while someone's already speaking with him. You know, kind of like it is with the Statesman and with all the Patrons when we fight them. That's a question of writing, and the writing can and SHOULD put me in conflict with the people giving me tasks. It should let me question them, it should let me defy them. It shouldn't expect me to just take every mission with nary a word of contempt. When Hardcase threatens to unleash demons on me, I don't want to fold. I want to slap him in the face and go have a look at his demons. Simply have the next mission be me fighting a bunch of really tough demons. Easy as pie. You can still spin it as to why I didn't help Vivacious. Have her double-cross me, for instance, and make THAT force me to stop her plot.

If I can have a base to my name that has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the real world, then why can't I have a base that contains a non-functioning death laser that I need to run missions to build? If I can have a base, why can't I put guards and soldiers in it? If I can have my own base, why can't I have a small slice of some alternate dimension? Why can't I have my own Shadow Shard fort? I'm pretty sure the Shadow Shard is big enough for all of us. MY stuff doesn't need to affect the real world, because I don't WANT to affect the world and alter other people's stories. I want to alter MY story, which doesn't require the world to change in the slightest.

Easy example: I do not want to replace Recluse and rule the Rogue Isles. I want to replace "some dictator" and rule "some island" out there "somewhere" in the sea. I don't want to take over Arachnos and rule over their soldiers. I want to take over "some faction" and rule over "some soldiers." I don't want a statue of myself in Atlas Park. I want a statue of myself in "some place" in the city. I don't want to be strongest hero of Galaxy City. I want to be the strongest hero of "some zone." I don't want to alter the status quo. I want to alter my own instance of it that no-body can see unless I invite them.

There is PLENTY of room left OUTSIDE of the persistent world where our own, unique, personal stories can be weaved without getting in the way of other people. That's the point.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.