(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You can stop here, because you are factually, provably wrong.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But more seriously, I think the whole Villain set up means that you'll never be treated the same as Heroes - because while Statesman wouldn't have a problem with anyone else being called his equal, Recluse would most likely view anyone caled his equal as a major threat to him - it's back to the problem of villains not being good at working together, and putting the player villains into a position where they can ask "if I'm the equal of Relcuse, why can't I try and overthrow him?".
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Originally Posted by Lord Recluse
That is mine, is it not? I understand your message. The Fortunatas warned me that your growing power might become inconvenient for my plans. And perhaps, one day we will clash for real, in a true final battle. But for the moment, you have earned some measure of my respect. You have grown in strength, you have grown in power, and you would challenge even me to battle without fear. I will no longer attempt to use you for Operation: DESTINY. You have grown beyond a mere tool. No, in you I have created something more. Through your long struggle you have become a true villain, wielding power over all and beholden to none. Go now, and work your terrors upon the Earth!
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The problem here is that, having reached this point, you can't actually go and work any terrors upon the Earth. More pertinently, you can't even try and fail to work any terrors. Von Grun excepted, of course.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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I think this is also why I picture Recluse very much like Lord Vetinari, of Terry Pratchett's Discworld;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havelock_Vetinari
He's not popular with everyone. Some people loathe every breath he takes. He's a politcal genius, a mastermind, a trained master assassin in his own right, has an army of attack clerks and ninja lawyers at his disposal (I kid you not. Think of Oddjobs hat...) and a self declared Tyrant and Dictator.
And he's utterly indispensible. The times where people have made attempts on his life or attempts to replace him have shown this in no uncertain terms. The city bends and creaks when the man who keeps the cogs oiled smooth is taken away. Everyone says 'Oh, things were better before all this', but they are rich, organised and prosper BECAUSE of the Patrician.
All he has to do is BE. And thats where Arachnos fails, because they interfere and take far too much of a hand in things. If they were more like the City Authorities under Vetinari, intervening where necessary, and with suitable wheel greasing (troop movements, mercenary contracts or making offers to reknowned Villains, e.g. us lot) then it would read, sit and play a lot smoother.
/Opinion
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been talking about how it's not a question of ability but a question of narrative all this time? That we don't need to be able to REPLACE recluse in the practical sense as long as the game makes it feel like we COULD?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But wouldn't that still make villains feel like second rankers? Like they'd be called Recluse's equal, but the game would still stop them from trying to replace him. Reclsue took over Arachnos, so why can't the player villains try taking it over from him?
Or is there a really, really good in-game lore reason we could maybe come up with here to explain away the restriction? |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Rough proposal from myself, who doesn't fully grasp the lore: Lord Recluse, in particular, is the only reason parts of the island exist. Maybe they're connected to his life force, maybe there are certain key players like Dr. Aeon who would rather die than serve anyone else. Not really sure what it would be, but some reason that is a stalemate.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Or is there a really, really good in-game lore reason we could maybe come up with here to explain away the restriction?
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I'm reminded of the scene from the only episode of Dr. Who I've seen: Victory of the Daleks. In it, Dr. Who is on the Dalek's ship, and they have ninety different guns pointed at him. They have every upper hand. Even if they were completely unarmed, they are impervious to harm and he would literally kill himself from exhaustion before making a dent in their "Skin"...
... but he has the self destruct button to something very, very important. So even though he is arguably powerless, weak, mortal, and has nothing to offer, the Daleks are forced to stand down and have a pleasant conversation with him.
That's how I'd want Recluse to be. By the time we hit level 50, we realize how pathetic he is compared to our awesomeness. We won't ever kill him, because that would be stupid, but he's still nothing compared to us.
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There's a secondary game system waiting to be tapped right there. What if the level of respect that you have earned as a villain gave you some additional perks...like helpful minions in some missions or a special temp power here and there?|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Only? No.
But having Contacts get more respectful would be a big step up; the more so if the degree was actually based on your accomplishments (levels, badges, 'contract bar', whatever). I think the bigger thing is some sort of sub-system that allows you to actually feel proactive. Mayhem missions is a good step in this direction, but I'm thinking a sub-sytem based on SFs you can choose or even something based on crafting that would let you work towards some grand but ultimately unacheivable goal. |
A villain reputation system which could affect the prices of your contact stores. If contact X is really scared crapless of you, then he wants you to be a satisfied customer for sure.
There are a lot of ways to turn being villainous into something tangible that players can relate to without culmination in world destruction or domination.
The Rogue Isles also has a setting advantage in that players could earn their own little island(albeit in a closed off zone) where they could possibly have a small community to rule over. The possibilities are endless, they have just never been properly explored.
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Not really, since not every Villain wants to take over the world. Hell, many don't even want Arachnos at all. Back when City of Villains was still in development and before Arachnos was ever announced the big speculation would be to join any of the existing Villain factions. Some people really wanted to be Freakshow, because they preferred anarchistic destruction. Some wanted to join the Council/5th because they would rather be Nazi style evil. Some wanted to be a part of the Family because they enjoyed the 'business' of Villainy.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But wouldn't that still make villains feel like second rankers? Like they'd be called Recluse's equal, but the game would still stop them from trying to replace him. Reclsue took over Arachnos, so why can't the player villains try taking it over from him?
Or is there a really, really good in-game lore reason we could maybe come up with here to explain away the restriction? |
Instead we get stuck with Arachnos, who actually fails at Villainy completely and we can't even be at all important. I remind you, that Recluses major in-game plans are "get someone else to defeat Statesman" and "use something someone else invented to force the time line so no matter what I do Statesman will lose"
And while this is very likely a waste of keystrokes on my part, since you seem to be ignoring the question, but I'm still going to try again: Do you think you would enjoy City of Heroes nearly as much if it insulted you, belittled your accomplishments, and in general treated you like a Hollywood-stile rent-a-cop throughout the game?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
The failure of imagination of both GG and the devs is the idea that all villains want to be the head of Arachnos, and will settle for second in command. It's about as ridiculous an idea as that everyone in America wants to be president, and will settle for vice president. Not all villains want to run everything, and even the ones that do don't all have to run it personally. Arachnos is a handy organization to have on your side, but many villains are aiming in different directions.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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But then if you're that much more powerful than him, why wouldn't you go and take over Paragon City? or leave the Rogue Isles and carve out your own evil territory? It's still coming back to the problem of the game telling you you're the most powerful villain in the world, but then telling you you have to stay in the Rogue Isles and watch a pathetic no-mark like Recluse rule them.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
That's how I'd want Recluse to be. By the time we hit level 50, we realize how pathetic he is compared to our awesomeness. We won't ever kill him, because that would be stupid, but he's still nothing compared to us.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Because I don't WANT to? Stop and think for a minute, please. This is exactly what SpittingTrashcan was talking about. Why do you assume we WANT to take over Arachnos? Why do you assume we WANT to mess with Paragon City? Who gives a crap about either?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But then if you're that much more powerful than him, why wouldn't you go and take over Paragon City?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Any player who has an "I want to rule the world" villain?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Because I don't WANT to? Stop and think for a minute, please. This is exactly what SpittingTrashcan was talking about. Why do you assume we WANT to take over Arachnos? Why do you assume we WANT to mess with Paragon City? Who gives a crap about either?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Clearly you've never heard of the figure-head ploy. Leave someone weaker in charge, so THEY have to deal with harassment from the 'Hero' types that feel the need to force their ideals among others. They get to deal with the headaches, and you are left free to enjoy whatever it is about being a Villain that got you into this.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But then if you're that much more powerful than him, why wouldn't you go and take over Paragon City? or leave the Rogue Isles and carve out your own evil territory? It's still coming back to the problem of the game telling you you're the most powerful villain in the world, but then telling you you have to stay in the Rogue Isles and watch a pathetic no-mark like Recluse rule them.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Those folks go right in the bin along with the Heroes who want to be more important than Statesman. In other words, the ones that want their own Statues and Task Forces.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Any player who has an "I want to rule the world" villain?
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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So doesn't the failuire of Arachnos make your success at killing, kidnapping, robbing a destroying look even better? Like you're the only competent villain in town? |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Not really, since not every Villain wants to take over the world. Hell, many don't even want Arachnos at all. Back when City of Villains was still in development and before Arachnos was ever announced the big speculation would be to join any of the existing Villain factions. Some people really wanted to be Freakshow, because they preferred anarchistic destruction. Some wanted to join the Council/5th because they would rather be Nazi style evil. Some wanted to be a part of the Family because they enjoyed the 'business' of Villainy.
Instead we get stuck with Arachnos, who actually fails at Villainy completely and we can't even be at all important. I remind you, that Recluses major in-game plans are "get someone else to defeat Statesman" and "use something someone else invented to force the time line so no matter what I do Statesman will lose" |
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| And while this is very likely a waste of keystrokes on my part, since you seem to be ignoring the question, but I'm still going to try again: Do you think you would enjoy City of Heroes nearly as much if it insulted you, belittled your accomplishments, and in general treated you like a Hollywood-stile rent-a-cop throughout the game? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But that's back to the same problem - the game says you're actually the true power in Arachnos, but it won't let you actualy do anything to follow that up.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Clearly you've never heard of the figure-head ploy. Leave someone weaker in charge, so THEY have to deal with harassment from the 'Hero' types that feel the need to force their ideals among others. They get to deal with the headaches, and you are left free to enjoy whatever it is about being a Villain that got you into this.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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For Eiko, the reason she doesn't try to overthrow Recluse is because she saw the future where she tried to overthrow Recluse, and destruction of the entire global ecosystem isn't part of her schemes. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
it's back to the problem of villains not being good at working together, and putting the player villains into a position where they can ask "if I'm the equal of Relcuse, why can't I try and overthrow him?".
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After I finished Time After Time with Eiko, I spent a lot of time with my roleplay having her working with Dr. Aeon (by force; I love running missions where the end goal is beating up Aeon. There's got to be a dozen of them in the game), exploring other possible futures outside the DESTINY project to find a future where she overthrew Recluse successfully.
I would love, love, love, love, love for that to be an actual story arc, as you explore all the myriad possible ways and reasons why any given plot to overthrow Recluse would be a failure.
Dangnabbit. I just realised what my AE arc needs to be.
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Because rumor has it that the city is practically populated by heroes. One might even call it a City of Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But then if you're that much more powerful than him, why wouldn't you go and take over Paragon City?
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| or leave the Rogue Isles and carve out your own evil territory? |
The Rogue Isles have always been a base, not a an entire continent. Y'all Paragonians have to stay and rebuild that city, which is why they keep insisting that things that don't belong in a City are there ("It's not really a full fledged forest. It's a, uhm, a park. Yeah, that's the ticket.)
We leave to go on Mayhem Missions. We leave to go to the Shadow Shard. We leave to the future and to the past.
It's just where our bed is. It's always been that way.
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I personally think of the Mayhem timer as "time until the capes of incoming heroes blot out the sun." Being able to take on Lord Recluse one on one is one thing, but being able to take on an entire city full of heroes, many of whom are considered Statesman's equal, is entirely another. But until they show up, we can sure make a mess of the neighborhood - and we don't need Arachnos's help to do it, either.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But then if you're that much more powerful than him, why wouldn't you go and take over Paragon City?
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| ... or leave the Rogue Isles and carve out your own evil territory? |
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| It's still coming back to the problem of the game telling you you're the most powerful villain in the world, but then telling you you have to stay in the Rogue Isles and watch a pathetic no-mark like Recluse rule them. |
I'm glad you see that being expected to respect Recluse and do his bidding after having defeated him in single combat is a problem, though. We're getting somewhere at last.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Most Villains aren't in it for the publicity, either. Sure you get some like the Joker, who intentionally try to get one over on the Bat from day one, but most Villains actually try to keep their actions quiet and off the radar at first. It's only AFTER the Hero has messed every thing up that they start on the revenge ploys. And even then, some times it can take several trips to jail before it starts getting to them.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So doesn't the failure of Arachnos make your success at killing, kidnapping, robbing a destroying look even better? Like you're the only competent villain in town?
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I wouldn't really care - villains are the ego maniacs - real heroes just do what needs to be done, regardless of any praise they get
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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You're not listening. We don't have to actually do anything. It would just be nice if the NPCs would recognize that we COULD, and thus don't continually try to piss us off.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But that's back to the same problem - the game says you're actually the true power in Arachnos, but it won't let you actualy do anything to follow that up.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Hence proving you didn't read a word I said, since I specifically explained this, in detail, here. Let people work towards their plots, just don't let them achieve them. That's still VASTLY superior than never letting us even try. Additionally, why do you assume that ruling the world has to start in the Isles, or even INCLUDE the Isles? If I wanted to rule the world, I'd do so out of my volcano island base with my man-seeking missiles.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Any player who has an "I want to rule the world" villain?
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Again, who gives a crap about the Isles. Given half a chance, most people would ship out of them in a heartbeat. The player distribution between heroes and villains reflects this wonderfully. And no, it's not JUST because people want to be the good guys.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I am listening - and "could" just leads to "well why can't I then?"
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You're not listening. We don't have to actually do anything. It would just be nice if the NPCs would recognize that we COULD, and thus don't continually try to piss us off.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, come July, the shipping can begin |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Again, who gives a crap about the Isles. Given half a chance, most people would ship out of them in a heartbeat. The player distribution between heroes and villains reflects this wonderfully. And no, it's not JUST because people want to be the good guys.
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Although, GR might bring some more respect to villains too
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Because we don't need to. And often, ruling the world is actually more limiting to what Villains want than anything else.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I am listening - and "could" just leads to "well why can't I then?"
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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"I could but I don't want to" is a much easier conceptual fudge than "I want to but can't." Simple as that.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I am listening - and "could" just leads to "well why can't I then?"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The funny thing is villains are idealist/dreamers on par with many heroes...just different ideals/dreams. Failing at a plot is fine, the villain wanted to try something new, it just didn't square up with the real world. So they try something new, hoping it will work instead.
Is this pathetic in some way? How many times, and for how long have heroes tried to halt crime? How many times do they futilely "save the city" before they realize someone needs to in five minutes?
Villains plot..they may fail, but their plotting/conniving is intrinsic to their whole "trying to take what they desire from the world" thing. Just as much as a hero is trying to better the world, despite not actually doing so.