(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Phipps enjoys what he does, but basically everything he does has a goal - it's not random cruelty for kicks.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Actually, Westin Phipps is, like, a 4 or 3. He's is just so much more of a relatable evil that it drives home the point more.
Phipps would aspire to break a woman's will until she becomes a prostitute. Daleks would aspire to destroy all life in the universe. One is clearly more evil than the other, but the other one is something we can imagine. Random tangent. Or rather, random rerailing. |
Recluse is paying him to help keep the masses downtrodden and ignorant so they can't rebel against his reign.
Which is a whole different kind of evil than Rularuu for example (who's kind of CoX's Galactus?).
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
Quote:
Which may have some unintended consequences. If Preatoria delivers on the kind of story presentation and choices we are wanting from the game and we aren't getting them anywhere else, we're going to want to spend our time there, sure. But villain players may find that they don't want to spend their time anywhere else because we don't get treated like villains anywhere else. Which may have the unintended consequence of emptying out redside completely. Which is something that I think GR will tend to do anyway exactly because of the problems that COV has.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think you're maybe expecting a little more from GR than you're actually going to get
 If the devs don't feel that revamping a single zone like Dark Astroia is a good use of resources, then the chances of them going through the entire content of CoV and rebuilding it are close to zero - as in minus 5 or so |
I personally think that by not taking some time to improve the feel of redside, they are going to do a disservice to the game. People are going to want to go from red to blue but not the other way. And I don't think it will simply be because no one wants to be a bad guy. It will be because no one wants to play a lapdog and have a depressing experience simply because you choose to explore a different aspect of the game. Choosing to play a villain in a [I]videogame[/I ]should not make you feel like crap. It should be as compelling and rewarding an experience as playing a hero even if the experiences are different. And they should be different.
You keep missing this point. And maybe part of it is that you staunchly refuse to think about how redside is(because you never set foot there except in MA), but I honestly think it's because you are being purposely dense for your own amusement.
Having a less compelling redside experience isn't good for the game, regardless of what you or people who 'can't stand to play a horrid villain' may think. That includes the devs if they are as shortsighted as you keep trying to make them out to be.
Quote:
No! Screw Recluse! Stop trying to shove Recluse into everything. Stop tying every blood plot point to Arachnos. Stop trying to sell missions as tasks for Arachnos.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Something like the Incarnate System could invovle you being sent by Recluse to investigate...
|
I don't want Lord Recluse to send me ANYWHERE, and if the Incarnate system assumes that, then it will be a huge pile of FAIL right from the start. If I'm going after the powers of the Incarnates, then I want it to be on MY authority, looking to take the power for MY own personal use by MY devices. If contacts are required to do this (which they probably will be), then have them offer to help me. Do NOT NOT NOT have them out and out order me to go get Incarnate power.
No. Just no. Arachnos can go to hell. Enough with the Arachnos. I don't care about them. I don't want to serve them. I don't want to put up with them, and I sure as HELL don't want new content to be about them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
That's kind of the point, though. Unrealistic philosophical debates aside, not having to do with jerkass contacts who show utter disrespect and actually threaten us is the name of the game here. The game's actual practical structure doesn't need to change. It's tone and writing do. And while I know you're not a fan of the game "pretending" to be about contacts working for us because the practical reality doesn't reflect this, I still maintain that that kind of illusion is strong enough to trump reality, especially for those that want to be more meaningful villains.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Asking that we not have to deal with Contacts like Darla Mavis, never mind Hard Case, is one thing, but the simple fact of the matter is that this game is predicated on the players performing tasks at the behest of NPCs. Either limit your character conceptions accordingly, which frankly is not all that hard, or accept that this game doesn't deliver what you want and move on.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
If you're that bad, that powerful, some (not all, but some) contacts should not respect you, they should FEAR you. They should be giving you information so that you don't beat the living tar out of them, their family, their friends. They should be grovelling and licking your boots.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Only? No.
But having Contacts get more respectful would be a big step up; the more so if the degree was actually based on your accomplishments (levels, badges, 'contract bar', whatever). |
edit: really, some of these contacts shouldn't even be villainous at all. Their arcs should be them giving you information they don't want you to have, but you do things to force it out of them.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Quote:
This really is all that needs to be said. There is no reason why playing a villain should result in a much more miserable, much less inspiring experience. No convincing reason, at least. Yes, villains in real life tend to take a lot of crap, but this is not real life. We're playing a game, and whether we choose to play hero or villain, we deserve a compelling experience.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Choosing to play a villain in a videogame should not make you feel like crap. It should be as compelling and rewarding an experience as playing a hero even if the experiences are different.
|
We shouldn't be trying to explain away why it makes sense for everyone to treat us like dirt. This simply should not happen unless the game supports a way to do something about it, which City of Villains does not.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Sorry to quadruple-post, but I LOVE this idea. I keep trying to think of ideas as to how the contacts will want to work for us (you know, like contacts in the real world do) rather than us working for them, but this is EVEN BETTER!|
Originally Posted by gec72
edit: really, some of these contacts shouldn't even be villainous at all. Their arcs should be them giving you information they don't want you to have, but you do things to force it out of them.
|
Picture the following. Your villain learns where the owner of an affluent bank lives. So he walks up to the man, and the bankers is all like "What are you doing in my home! Help! Somebody call the police! Wait, stop! M-maybe we can talk about this?" You get your info, hit one bank, but then you keep coming back to him for more. More information on his company, information on other banks, maybe even getting him to scam another bank director or two for you to kidnap.
This has the benefit of being particularly vile, but it also has the benefit of actually being proactive AND being the kind of villainy that brings you respect and fear. You're not working for your contact. He's not even working for you. He's holding on for dear life and doing what you say. Now why can't we have a few of those?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
The redside content is a win, and I wish we had more content like it,
I've found people have had interesting perceptions of playing redside,
There are those who don't play redside b/c they don't want to be the bad guys, the truth is playing redside is more like being an anti-hero than a villain, what you do over there really isn't all that different from what you do blue side, you spend a lot more time fighting arachnos than blueside does, fight a lot of the same people, only fighting maybe 3-4 factions that could be described as heroic, and only a handful of arcs that can make you feel like a vilain. Other differences include not being sent all over the place, fewer hunt and fedex missions, generally seeing more EB's, and of course fewer merits
Then you have people who can't stand redside because it is villain lite, your not a villain the same way you would be if you were playing Grand Theft Auto, or any of that genre of games
Quote:
Hmm, actually I find the CoV storylines pretty similar to early life in most GTA titles, the period where you work your way up (and even learn where to get weapons |
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
Then you have people who can't stand redside because it is villain lite, your not a villain the same way you would be if you were playing Grand Theft Auto, or any of that genre of games
|
), of course in GTA you eventually take over and become the baddest **** on the block (which makes perfect sense in a single player game).
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html
Quote:
As Recluse and Statesman are the two main Incarnates in the game lore, it seems quite possible that the Incarnate System might use them as a hook.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No! Screw Recluse! Stop trying to shove Recluse into everything. Stop tying every blood plot point to Arachnos. Stop trying to sell missions as tasks for Arachnos.
I don't want Lord Recluse to send me ANYWHERE, and if the Incarnate system assumes that, then it will be a huge pile of FAIL right from the start. If I'm going after the powers of the Incarnates, then I want it to be on MY authority, looking to take the power for MY own personal use by MY devices. If contacts are required to do this (which they probably will be), then have them offer to help me. Do NOT NOT NOT have them out and out order me to go get Incarnate power. No. Just no. Arachnos can go to hell. Enough with the Arachnos. I don't care about them. I don't want to serve them. I don't want to put up with them, and I sure as HELL don't want new content to be about them. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Stuff like that could possibly break the T rating.
|
Originally Posted by gec72
really, some of these contacts shouldn't even be villainous at all. Their arcs should be them giving you information they don't want you to have, but you do things to force it out of them.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
This is exactly the problem with Redside. It should never be about feeling more like COH so you should be comfortable playing it. That's what keeps turning people off. They can get a better hero experience playing blueside.|
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
The redside content is a win, and I wish we had more content like it,
I've found people have had interesting perceptions of playing redside, There are those who don't play redside b/c they don't want to be the bad guys, the truth is playing redside is more like being an anti-hero than a villain, what you do over there really isn't all that different from what you do blue side, you spend a lot more time fighting arachnos than blueside does, fight a lot of the same people, only fighting maybe 3-4 factions that could be described as heroic, and only a handful of arcs that can make you feel like a vilain. Other differences include not being sent all over the place, fewer hunt and fedex missions, generally seeing more EB's, and of course fewer merits Then you have people who can't stand redside because it is villain lite, your not a villain the same way you would be if you were playing Grand Theft Auto, or any of that genre of games |
If, in fact, being a not-really-villain was what people wanted, redside would be way more populated. I play redside a lot, yes. But that's because I can tolerate the way the story arcs are presented due to the fact that the actual playing is more streamlined than COH.
I like the story content of a lot of the redside stuff as well...but the role I play in it as a character is often not what I envision a villain protagonist to be doing.
The content of redside is 'win' only because it sometimes has better writing and characters and flows better in terms of moving from mission to mission than blueside ever does. It's not win because it gives you the feel of being a true villain protagonist playing an active role in a story. This is where my problem lies.
The new villain arcs do a better job of making you feel like you have some kind of control over the flow of the story, even if that is only an illusion.
Quote:
And yet Heroes don't have Statesman shoved into every aspect of their lives. Heck it was several years before he was even seen in the game outside of a single instanced mission.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As Recluse and Statesman are the two main Incarnates in the game lore, it seems quite possible that the Incarnate System might use them as a hook.
|
Something tells me Heroes will be able to explore the Incarnate idea of their own free will, without interaction from Statesman.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
Only played this arc once with a female char that yes.. is a looker! It was very, very, very suitable that Dean would try to date my char. The message alone that gave me the Dean as contact at lvl 25 was oooh so right. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Words frequently associated with villains
Also, from what I've heard, he's a little less big on the dignity, decency and respect if you're not male - like he actually tries hititng on you |
The way that he continues to treat your char was oh so fitting. But as said elsewhere.
One reason I LOVE the arc is because he sees you as the Alpha, the strong one and himself as a helper. He helps you to do get forward in the arc and do your villainious thing (trying to to spoil anything).
(Also I would love having the option for different text dependant upon Origin/Sex in AE... that was completely unrelated, sorry)
To the topic of Incarnates...
For all that is good...errr evil in this case... I Do not think that Recluse will be the contact for incarnates (I hope he will not at all), cause Recluse... sharing power? Yearrright.
Yes, leave Recluse out of the Incarnate, mention him by name sure, but leave Arachnos out of the loop in the Incarnate system.
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gec72
edit: really, some of these contacts shouldn't even be villainous at all. Their arcs should be them giving you information they don't want you to have, but you do things to force it out of them.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Stuff like that could possibly break the T rating.
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Having Recluse encourage other villains to become an Incarnate wouldn't make any sense. Why would Recluse show up as anything but an opponent to the idea of characters gaining the powers of an Incarnate? Why would he want the competition?
If the 40s is about learning the grandeur and power of Grandville and Arachnos (and its sometimes bitter internal divisions), which in some ways is what the missions in the 40s are about, then the Incarnate system would make better sense if it is about villains finding their own way forward and about taking their own role in shaping the game world (however that might be possible).
Quote:
He'd send you, one of his most trusted followers, to investigate whatever the reason for the Incarnate System appearing will be - and then you'd doublecross him, and take the power for yourself |
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Having Recluse encourage other villains to become an Incarnate wouldn't make any sense. Why would Recluse show up as anything but an opponent to the idea of characters gaining the powers of an Incarnate? Why would he want the competition?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
That might be something to do with Statesman being a veteran hero and Recluse being a power crazed dictator - one of those two types is more likely to have an impact on the area where they live |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
And yet Heroes don't have Statesman shoved into every aspect of their lives.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Still doesn't change the fact that Heroes will be given free will on the Incarnate system, and Villains - no, Servants, because you don't actually get to be a Villain in that game - will be ordered about as usual.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That might be something to do with Statesman being a veteran hero and Recluse being a power crazed dictator - one of those two types is more likely to have an impact on the area where they live
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
With the option to doublecross Recluse |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Still doesn't change the fact that Heroes will be given free will on the Incarnate system, and Villains - no, Servants, because you don't actually get to be a Villain in that game - will be ordered about as usual.
|
Also, you are a villain in CoV - you might even be a supervillain - but you're just never an archvillain - so you really are exaggerating when you say you're not a villain in CoV
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
No, you really are just a servant, lackey or other word for minion. Even at 50, you're still bottom of the totem pole. And like you said, it's not going to change any time soon.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
With the option to doublecross Recluse
Also, you are a villain in CoV - you might even be a supervillain - but you're just never an archvillain - so you really are exaggerating when you say you're not a villain in CoV |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
This is true.
|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
No, you really are just a servant, lackey or other word for minion. Even at 50, you're still bottom of the totem pole. And like you said, it's not going to change any time soon.
|
Quote:
I have a badge that proves you wrong. Want to see it?
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
- but you're just never an archvillain -
|
If the Incarnate system was written in the same spirit of lackeyism as the 40s missions, a *lot* of players would have a strongly negative response.
My sense is that the devs listen a little too closely to feedback they get from players for that to happen.
In slightly more general terms, the Incarnate arcs would be a wonderful time for Arachnos and Longbow to take an extended vacation, given their ubiquity throughout the rest of a villain's career.
EDIT: Removed redundancy.
Redside's mission arc design is much better than Blue's, but being new at villains and all they made another mistake - this time storywise (you're a toadie for life :P).
Things will probably improve with GR, it will benefit from 6 years of experience - the mission design is better and the story approach will be better if I17's arcs are an indication.
Hell we even get the whole fixed mission location thing - no more going under the Zig to stop the latest doomsday device :P
As nice as it would be I really doubt they'll be doing much revamping of old arcs on either side of the fence.
Like Underworld? Then take a look at! http://moonid.net/account/recruitmen.../monstersgame/
And don't forget to join the fight for our City! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ard,134.0.html