(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Sure - you can show me your archvillain badge just as soon as you're done polishing Recluse's boots |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I have a badge that proves you wrong. Want to see it?
|
But more seriously, you can't really complain that you're treated like a servant, then say you're an archvillain too - you have to be either one or the other
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
As the Incarnate conent is contained in the zone events in the four new Praetorian zones, I think it's quite likely you won't have too much interaction with Arachnos or Longbow.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
If the Incarnate system was written in the same spirit of lackeyism as the 40s missions, a *lot* of players would have a strongly negative response.
My sense is that the devs listen a little too closely to feedback they get from players for that to happen. In slightly more general terms, the Incarnate arcs would be a wonderful time for Arachnos and Longbow to take an extended vacation, given their ubiquity throughout the rest of a villain's career. |
You might also be pleased to know that the Going Rogue system won't use contacts - so you'll be saved from further abuse and humiliation at the hands of Arachnos contacts
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
She's got a badge that says she's an Arch Villain. I've got a badge that says my character is the Origin of Power. Given the reaction of our masters, the contacts I'd say neither one of them is really true.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sure - you can show me your archvillain badge just as soon as you're done polishing Recluse's boots
But more seriously, you can't really complain that you're treated like a servant, then say you're an archvillain too - you have to be either one or the other |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
On our way to being Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As the Incarnate conent is contained in the zone events in the four new Praetorian zones, I think it's quite likely you won't have too much interaction with Arachnos or Longbow.
You might also be pleased to know that the Going Rogue system won't use contacts - so you'll be saved from further abuse and humiliation at the hands of Arachnos contacts |
Yay.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
Well, it'll work the other way too - you won't need contacts to move towards the evil side either - so that should give most players enough time to mentally adjust from being Statesman's pal to Recluse's lackey |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
On our way to being Heroes.
Yay. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Right. It's all in the writing. Acts could be implied (heck, there's already a mission where you're finding "subjects" for Dr. Vahz - I think we know what is going to happen to them). There are also many ways villains can be devious without necessarily being violent; it could even be as simple as tricking your contact (think Wheeler but reversed).
|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Not necessarily. All you need is a mission where you click a computer desk to download potential blackmail material, or an escort mission where the hostage has the same last name as the contact.
|
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Quote:
There's still a choice between beating them up to get their power and working with them to earn power like theirs. For a hero, the latter would be very much the way, but for a villain, the former is the only way to go. After all, by level 50, I've already handed Recluse his mask (along with his ***), so it makes sense for me to want to find other ways to screw with the guy.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As Recluse and Statesman are the two main Incarnates in the game lore, it seems quite possible that the Incarnate System might use them as a hook.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Stuff like that could possibly break the T rating.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He'd send you, one of his most trusted followers, to investigate whatever the reason for the Incarnate System appearing will be - and then you'd doublecross him, and take the power for yourself
 |
"One of his most trusted followers?" After I broke his face in the future, humiliated him in front of his lieutenants and was told by Recluse himself, that he's not going to try to mess with me anymore? Yeah, GG, why don't you play villain-side first before trying to make wild guesses as to what red-side fiction implies? Because you keep missing the mark by a continental divide.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Yeah, I've only done the first couple of missions for Dean, but I already love the guy. As a contact, that is. As a person, I want to punch him, but it's the good kind of need |
Originally Posted by Lady Arete
Only played this arc once with a female char that yes.. is a looker! It was very, very, very suitable that Dean would try to date my char. The message alone that gave me the Dean as contact at lvl 25 was oooh so right.
The way that he continues to treat your char was oh so fitting. But as said elsewhere. One reason I LOVE the arc is because he sees you as the Alpha, the strong one and himself as a helper. He helps you to do get forward in the arc and do your villainious thing (trying to to spoil anything). |
Dean is the sort of guy who makes you slap your head and make that face a lot. But you know what? That's GOOD! It gives the dude some character, even if it's grating, and it makes me feel like the only competent man on earth who has to make sure Dean doesn't decapitate himself on his mobile phone. Instead of having ultra-professional contacts that act as if they're dragging us scum along, riding their coat tails, Dean is the kind of contact that makes me feel like I'm dragging HIM along.And it's GRRRATE!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Other than the name of the badge, when are you ever Stateman's "Pal"? You're just one of the F.N.G's that came after him and his real team already established things.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, it'll work the other way too - you won't need contacts to move towards the evil side either - so that should give most players enough time to mentally adjust from being Statesman's pal to Recluse's lackey
|
Quote:
Because for her to do that would be the same as kicking puppies and slow-roasting babies while laughing maniacally. And that's pretty much how she sees the rest of us who do play villain side.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yeah, GG, why don't you play villain-side first before trying to make wild guesses as to what red-side fiction implies?
|
Quote:
| Because you keep missing the mark by a continental divide. |
You know, I kept talking about contacts serving us and us having grand plans, all of this without actually having played any of the new content, on account of me having made a Mastermind when I17 hit. Well, this Mastermind is now level enough to attempt both Dean's mission AND Leonard's missions...
...
And they're exactly what I had in mind. Dean is an idiot, but he's a useful, endearing idiot. Useful enough, in fact, for me to go calling him even outside of his mission arc. He's really cool about helping me out, too. Always happy to help, always eager to perform. I'm not sure what Leonard's deal is so far, but even though I suspect he will double-cross me, he still acts cordially and professionally.
And to top it all off, we're building me a clone factory, pretty much exactly as I described it. Oh, sure, it's make-believe and it won't serve me in the long run, but so what? I'm making my own clone factory! That's villainous enough for me. If all the content in Praetoria is like this... Wow! That'll be something to see!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
The good news is that I don't need to convince any player of anything to get what I want. The ones I need to convince are Dr. Aeon and the other mission developers, and it seems like they're already on board. All that needs to happen is for people who play villains, or want to play villains, to play the hell out of the new arcs and then come to the forums to say "more like this, please."
Edited to add: In general, there seems to be a fair degree of support on the forums in general to update and revamp old content, especially in the lower levels. The public stance of the developers is that they'd prefer to create "new stuff", but the Positron revamp and the Faultline update seem to have been extremely well received. I would argue that revamping old content is great PR for existing players, as "new stuff" is judged in a vacuum, but revamped stuff is judged based on what preceded it. It also helps retain players trying out the game for the first time or after a long absence, who come for the "new stuff" but end up hitting a lot of the bad old stuff, and the better the new stuff is, the worse the old stuff compares. Going Rogue dominates the development schedule now and for some time to come, but when they have the chance, I hope the developers take a long hard look at all the launch content that hasn't had a bit of polishing since, and scratch some old itches.
(You think old Posi was a drag? Run Quaterfield some week.)
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Yeah, I see the new arcs as samplers of Going Rogue, and they have me with knife and fork in hand, bib properly salivated. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, I kept talking about contacts serving us and us having grand plans, all of this without actually having played any of the new content, on account of me having made a Mastermind when I17 hit. Well, this Mastermind is now level enough to attempt both Dean's mission AND Leonard's missions...
... And they're exactly what I had in mind. Dean is an idiot, but he's a useful, endearing idiot. Useful enough, in fact, for me to go calling him even outside of his mission arc. He's really cool about helping me out, too. Always happy to help, always eager to perform. I'm not sure what Leonard's deal is so far, but even though I suspect he will double-cross me, he still acts cordially and professionally. And to top it all off, we're building me a clone factory, pretty much exactly as I described it. Oh, sure, it's make-believe and it won't serve me in the long run, but so what? I'm making my own clone factory! That's villainous enough for me. If all the content in Praetoria is like this... Wow! That'll be something to see! |
Quote:
Yeah...that'll justify my preorder right there if there is more of the same in GR.
|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Yeah, I see the new arcs as samplers of Going Rogue, and they have me with knife and fork in hand, bib properly salivated.
|
Quote:
He treats us in a friendly way - and I think he probably quite likes having us around when we save him and the world when the "real" team aren't able to |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Other than the name of the badge, when are you ever Stateman's "Pal"? You're just one of the F.N.G's that came after him and his real team already established things.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You might get some of that in GR - but don't forget that for Loyalist players, there's quite likely to be a lot of ordering about from your superiors - obedience to the will of the leader is an important part of keeping a dictatorship going, so Tyrant is so likely to let his followers be too independant.
|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Yeah, I see the new arcs as samplers of Going Rogue, and they have me with knife and fork in hand, bib properly salivated.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
It's been a pet theory of mine that Loyalists that prove themselves after a while get more freedom than the average citizen, as part of the truly f'd up nature of Tyrant's system. Or, to put it another way: "Communism is actually quite lucrative!" (Archer, episode 4: Honeypot).|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You might get some of that in GR - but don't forget that for Loyalist players, there's quite likely to be a lot of ordering about from your superiors - obedience to the will of the leader is an important part of keeping a dictatorship going, so Tyrant is so likely to let his followers be too independant.
|
But that's a theory, and I suspect that you're more correct.
Quote:
Well, there's the possibility that you'll get to beat up some of your bosses, as that's the way Tyrant likes his promotion system to work - like the Praetroian Police officer you're running eraans for for the first few levels could be the end boss of a later arc where you have to prove your increased power to a new superior - so while you'd still be taking orders, you might still feel you were making progress through the ranks.
|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
It's been a pet theory of mine that Loyalists that prove themselves after a while get more freedom than the average citizen, as part of the truly f'd up nature of Tyrant's system. Or, to put it another way: "Communism is actually quite lucrative!" (Archer, episode 4: Honeypot).
But that's a theory, and I suspect that you're more correct. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Who said they have to beat up on the people above them anyway? Those people are offering the Villain-in-training a venue for his violence and a steady supply of victims. It's like killing the Goose to get to the Golden Eggs inside.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, there's the possibility that you'll get to beat up some of your bosses, as that's the way Tyrant likes his promotion system to work - like the Praetroian Police officer you're running errands for for the first few levels could be the end boss of a later arc where you have to prove your increased power to a new superior - so while you'd still be taking orders, you might still feel you were making progress through the ranks.
|
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
Hero 1 said it at Hero Con - Tyrant's promotion system is based on the ability of an underling to defeat their boss. |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Who said they have to beat up on the people above them anyway? Those people are offering the Villain-in-training a venue for his violence and a steady supply of victims. It's like killing the Goose to get to the Golden Eggs inside.
|
That way, he'll always have the strongest or most devious people as his officers, and they'll always be trying to improve themselves to protect themselves from their underlings trying to take their positon, and also giving themselves a chance to replace their own boss too.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Iz true. I were there. Perfectly legal to kill someone on the grounds that you can do their job better. Justified homicide in that world.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Hero 1 said it at Hero Con - Tyrant's promotion system is based on the ability of an underling to defeat their boss.
That way, he'll always have the strongest or most devious people as his officers, and they'll always be trying to improve themselves to protect themselves from their underlings trying to take their positon, and also giving themselves a chance to replace their own boss too. |
Though I suspect that was added purely to up the "Yar, we must overthrow teh ebil gov'ment" factor that Heroes are going to want in this expansion.
I don't believe in evil. I don't believe it really exists.
I know people can be selfish. I know people can be greedy. I know people can be violent and mindless. I know people commit to great tragedies against their fellow people... But that doesn't necessarily make them evil. It's unsettling to imagine the world if the villains of our past succeeded in order to write history the way they see fit.
Only one thing really falls under any concept of "evil" in my mind: senseless destruction. Sadism falls into this... I don't understand how a person can enjoy inflicting pain and tragedy on another for no good reason. People do things for reasons, even animals fight for territory and kill for food. Monsters do things for no reason. They destroy with no purpose. They cause suffering for the sheer thrill of it.
That said, most of my "villains" do things because that is where life led them. They're in the Rogue Isles not because they're evil, but because it's a "frontier" environment. The law is lax to none, the authorities are more interested in abusing their power than actually using it. They're people. They go out, they explore the Isles, they run afoul of some of the denizens (which are mostly mooks for major villain groups) but none of them are going out of their way to cause trouble. When Going Rogue goes live, most of them will be turning Rogue while others turn Vigilante.
A very few of my characters are seeking wanton destruction. They make me shudder.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
Of course, you're missing that even the lowest ranking 'cop' in that world has still shown he has decided to uphold Tyrant's way of life. Thus, one doesn't really need to be in a very high position to have more power than the sheep who enjoy Tyrant's ideal, yet do nothing to support it. I expect this will be like '20s movies police, rampant corruption at all ranks, with only a few good apples that actually care about the people, more than their badge.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Hero 1 said it at Hero Con - Tyrant's promotion system is based on the ability of an underling to defeat their boss.
That way, he'll always have the strongest or most devious people as his officers, and they'll always be trying to improve themselves to protect themselves from their underlings trying to take their position, and also giving themselves a chance to replace their own boss too. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
It's also how the Powers Division indoctrination program produces only the best soldiers - the 90% of superpowered people who die during the process aren't strong enough, ruthless enough or skillful enough to serve Tyrant, so their deaths aren't a problem to him - plus, it also removes any potential superpowered recruits for the Resistance at the same time.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Iz true. I were there. Perfectly legal to kill someone on the grounds that you can do their job better. Justified homicide in that world.
Though I suspect that was added purely to up the "Yar, we must overthrow teh ebil gov'ment" factor that Heroes are going to want in this expansion. |
EDIT. Some of the 90% could possibly end up as Ghouls instead of dying
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Would also like to comment that this:
Seriously, the reason he breaks his new Servants out of the Zig is because one of his Fortunata saw that someone among them is strong enough to take down Statesman. Finding which one is the right one is something he calls Operation: Destiny.
Unsurprisingly to anyone, if a character is able to take down one Incarnate, he can take down another. Thus you become a threat to Recluse's reign and the world's safety. You them beat up future Recluse to show that you're not one to be messed with. As a result Recluse says he's going to stop Operation: Destiny, since it's too late to stop the war that would result because of it. And then he offers you the chance to go beat up Statesman, the very point of Operation: Destiny to begin with.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.