Redside Heroics

Pissing contests aside, I really have to ask this question, and please give me an honest answer: When there is a City of Heroes as part of the same game, why insist on making heroes in the City of Villains where they don't go by design? The narrative just doesn't support it as well as it does in City of Heroes.

Is it the ATs? Those will cross over soon. Is it the settings? City of Heroes has plenty of run-down slims, too. What can you get in City of Villains that you can't get in City of Heroes that a hero would need?

I'm not some kind of prude who insists that people should play how I say they should play, but it just seems to make sense to do this. Why hammer a square peg in a round hole? Why take an AT and try to make it do something it's not supposed to do when there's an AT designed to do what you want? Why order an item off the menu, but request so many changes that you end up describing another item in the same menu? Why go out of your way to cheat the system when you're doing something the system actually permits and even encourages you to do, anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Fudge is a key part of role playing.

The closest I get to heroic characters in the Rogue Isles is stuff like the guy I mentioned earlier in the thread. He's fighting against evil and corruption, but he's also a cold-blooded killer. He has good intentions, but when you casually kill hundreds of people in the pursuit of justice, society tends to view you as a villain. He doesn't kill innocents, and he really is doing what he believes is the right thing to do. He's very much like the Punisher in that regard.

I mean, do you really think all these villain characters actually see themselves as being evil? Sure, some do, but the majority of the "I'm the most evil being that ever existed" characters are pretty one-dimensional.

Some more examples:

My brute is a descendent of Dracula, who was actually a mutant and not a real vampire. His mutation gave him the abilities that Bram Stoker wrote about, but no one knew what a mutant was back then, so his powers were attributed to the supernatural. He is the closest thing I have to a "real" villain. He believes in survival of the fittest, and if you can't hold onto what's yours you don't deserve to have it. He couldn't care less what Recluse wants, he's just out for himself. He doesn't see himself as evil, just practical.

My Fire/Rad corruptor was irradiated in a Terra Volta accident, where she was an intern. She blames the heroes for her accident, and is out to prove that they aren't as good and pure as they want people to believe. Again, she doesn't see herself as evil, she just thinks that heroes are selfish and are doing what they do for glory and fame.

My stalker is actually an alternate reality future version of my main hero, who is a scrapper. He's trying to prevent a mistake my hero made that lead to the destruction of Earth in his reality. He doesn't realize that he ended up in a different reality, he just thinks he went back in time. He doesn't know that the mistake he made is never going to happen in this reality. So he's trying to do the right thing, but since the "right thing" involves killing a hero, society naturally sees him as being a villain.

Just because you're playing City of Villains doesn't mean your character views their actions as villainous. Most villains actually believe they are doing the right thing, and many of them ARE doing the right thing, albeit by their own moral compass.

I could see a backstory where a hero is deep undercover trying to bring down Arachnos. Undercover agents do things all the time that they don't want to do, but have to in order to maintain their cover. Such a character would be very conflicted between doing their job and what they feel is right.

Or a hero that was framed for something and is stuck in the Rogue Isles trying to clear their name. Unfortunately, everything they do while they're over there just colors society's perception of them even more.

Just because it says they're a villain doesn't always mean that's what they are.

OK, a couple of points:

Firstly, for the most part, Going Rogue will shift these "heroic villains" over to hero-side, or at least into vigilanteism. Would that be a safe assertion to make? I'd certainly not criticise someone for playing "fake villains" because he likes the ATs in a system where those ATs are side-locked, but now that we'll be able to cross them over soon, is there anything ELSE keeping doing this?

Secondly, I maintain that each side assumes hero or villain, respectively. But suppose each side offered "other side" missions that were accessible to, say, only Vigilantes and Rogues. That would remove my claim that the side doesn't support it, and it would allow a character to go to the Rogue Isles, but actually take missions to save people, cull evil corporations, undermine Arachnos and so forth, while allowing a character to go to Paragon City and blow up buildings, kidnap people, set up smuggling routes and so forth.

Granted, an argument can be made that this is already possible, and it is... But not quite. Mayhem missions let villains into Paragon City, but only in a VERY limited fashion. And while villains do end up doing a lot of not-necessarily-evil stuff, it's always under the guise of being evil with some excuse why this is still nasty. I'm not talking about these. I'm talking about a Rogue going to Paragon City, speaking with a Shadowy Figure in a back alley in Brickstown and getting a mission to assassinate the ambassador to West Libertalia while no-one is looking, then taking off back to the safety of the Rogue Isles. Similarly, I'm talking of a vigilante landing on Sharkhead Island, speaking with the Iron Widow and getting a mission to break a bunch of Scrapyarders out of a Cage Consortium brig.

The hero/villain mission tagging can already handle this easily, and there's no reason why contacts can't be situated on one side, but have missions entirely faction-locked to the other side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

All my villains are varying degrees of bad. They range from simply selfish with zero consideration for their fellow human beings to mad scientists who think doing all sorts of experiments on whatever hobo you picked up in Mercy Island is a fun past-time.

That said, I don't mind if people think their CoV characters or heroic. There's even some story arcs that allow a heroic solution, even if said solution is "hey! Let the timer run out! DO IT FOR JUSTICE!"

There are character types that do annoy me, however, and it seems appropriate enough for this thread to rant about them.

For starters, there's the Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos that have "Not actually [Archetype]" as their first line in their bio. I just find it immensely silly that you pick an AT that has a 1-50 story dedicated to them and then say they're not connected to the story? I suppose some people just want to shapeshift without being a Kheldian, and I can respect that, but with VEATs the most unique thing you get the crab-spider backpack, and most non-VEAT VEATs don't seem to have them.

Well, either way, I can kinda see where those people are coming from. They want the gameplay but don't care for the lore attached to it so they make their own. I can respect that.

What actually starts bothering me is when the opposite happens. Having your origin being tied to the existing lore is a great thing as far as I'm concerned. Whether you're an ex-Crey scientist/experiment or you narrowly escaped a Circle of Thorns ritual with some of their artifacts, it's all cool. It starts going a wee bit far when it turns out you're Lord Recluse's wife or child, or the secret lover of Ghost Widow or anything like that. I'm cool with tying yourself to the existing lore and I can deal with dismissing or ignoring existing lore to make your own character concept, but when you warp the existing lore to make your level 2 toon beating up snakes more important than they actually are, I think you're officially trying too hard. Or, as is more likely, not hard enough.

Similar are also the types that claim to be ancient super-gods with the power of omnipotence and demand you worship them... at level 12. I only ever saw those ones in the Pocket D, so I don't exactly care about them, either.

My absolute "favorite" concept, however, and the most common of these at least on Virtue, are Arbiter toons. I just find it hilarious when someone claims to be part of Arachnos' impartial and untouchable branch but is very far from being either one. All the other concepts I, at most, just shake my head and move on, but whenever I see an "Arbiter", I make a point of saying in Local "Do you think that shoddy disguise fools anyone? You're not even shiny like a real Arbiter!"

Again, these are concepts I don't like, but with the exception of Arbiters who get a short one-line quip, I never tell anyone how to make their character concept. It's your choice how to play the game and if you're having fun, awesome! These are just concepts I find silly and I just wanted to share my two cents.

[QUOTE=Samuel_Tow;2692555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steampunkette These character concepts just don't -work- heroside. So, yes, I think even after Going Rogue comes out you'll have people bending the storyline to fit their character better. However: So long as their continuity allows your continuity to exist, they're not Mary-Sueing themselves into positions of power, and aren't God moding, where's the real harm in making a story fit a character? Square Peg in a round hole aside (With power customization I've met dozens of "Dust" or "Sand" controllers dishing out fire damage, and "Light" blasters throwing off energy torrent) does it hurt your continuity for this to occur? If Yes: Don't Roleplay with such characters. Ignore them and go about your business. If No: Roleplay with such characters. And enjoy some interesting and possibly meaningful interaction involving opposite sides of the same fight./QUOTE] I'm not trying to criticise other people's characters, even if I don't happen to agree with the general idea behind some. I'm just more curious why people consistently go against the grain of the game, as while there aren't any stated rules, the design behind the systems isn't hard to see. If you have your reasons, then that's just fine. I have no problem with that. I wouldn't quite run things the same as you do, but then I don't pay your subscription

=-3

Another point to consider is those who enjoy being Proactive.

Heroes, on the whole, are Reactionary. They attempt to maintain the status quo and uphold justice when the evil guy comes to town and starts ruining the apple pie lifestyle. Heroes in the Isles tend to be Proactive rather than Reactive. They're actively trying to change things for the better and, as such, have a more dynamic feel to their storyline.

Think of most Superhero Comics. bad guy appears, causes chaos. hero fights bad guy and sort of loses for a little bit in a bid at tension, then wins the fight. The "Sort of Loses" for a little bit creates tension and interest in the story.

Now think of a Superhero trying to make things better in a bad place. He's now antagonistic to society as it stands while being a heroic figure AND the protagonist. He's an active element who does more than react to changes inflicted by the enemy.

Sometimes I want some of column A. sometimes i want some of column B. i never want column C or D

Column C being the protagonist villain in Paragon city, inflicting change upon a "Good" society for her own ends.

And D being the Villain in a City of Villains not really changing anything or accomplishing -anything- because all she does is work for other people. She's not proactive but she's still the Villain? It doesn't really work for me.

So yes. I re-write. And it makes the characters mean more to me. =-3

-Rachel-

I have a corrupter that is from a planet where literally EVERYONE is a hero. Everyone. It's a "Planet of Hats" if you will.

So he comes to Earth and sees the insanity and evilness of humanity, and decides to fix it. He finds Recluse, Arachnos convinces him that they are the good guys (not too hard to do, since the guy is a moron) and now he works for the side of JUSTICE!

Or so he thinks. He's going blueside as soon as GR hits.

I also have a couple of people blueside that are technically villains. They're on their way to the Rogue Isels as soon as they can.

This I must say is a great thread.

When I made my brute, I really liked the idea of being trapped. I thought they may one day have side switching, but I didn't know for sure. It was fun to RP him on Triumph (not really and RP server) he lives on Virtue now. It was just fun. I would rescue kidnap victims. Never did Patron Arcs, and a score of other things in an attempt to be good. The sad things is Good by human standards, and good by his standards didn't always mesh up. That was fun for me.

That is what it is all about. Fun. If it is more fun go for it. I do have evil Characters on Red side. Those are fun too. My Zombie MM has pets named after my RL friends, he sees nothing wrong with raising them from the dead over and over again.

MY Demon Summoner will be a truly twisted individual. Really excited about this one.

The thing is, the same thing isn't always fun every time. It is a game with multiple characters, and by including a back ground spot in my bio, and giving me a second starting contact the Devs have told me they understand. They said that even louder when they announced side switching, not AT sharing, but going from one side to another.

Why hammer a square peg into a round hole? Because then I get to be different

Sort of? I have a character with MPD, first she was a hero and then she developed a psychotically insane persona, which is what landed her in the Isles. With GR, she'll finally get to go back to Paragon.

B-but... gah... this thread makes my head hurt. >.<

good luck D.B.B.

I'd say there are a fairly decent number of story arcs villian side where your character isn't exactly perceived as the most disgusting creature on Earth.

The early level storyline with Ghost Widow, Wretch, and What's her Name is a good example. I actually felt pretty damn good at the end of that one.

Paper Missions are easily mutable into whatever you want.