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My opinion that "it's stupid" is not flamebait. It's my opinion. Flamebait would imply I was deliberately trying to illicit a negative reaction from you, which is frankly not the truth of the matter.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There is no "Facepalm" to this. It's simple logic. Facepalm, by the way, is more flamebait. It's a derogatory statement which infers your extreme disdain for my statement, regardless of how sound my logic is. Your only argument -against- my logic, thus far, has been "It's stupid", ultimately. |
You are correct that I would still recommend option A, however.
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Well here. I'll give you the option of telling me how to play, so long as you can offer an option D which is still fun to me, and still involves doing the villainside content.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
My opinion that "it's stupid" is not flamebait. It's my opinion. Flamebait would imply I was deliberately trying to illicit a negative reaction from you, which is frankly not the truth of the matter.
You are correct that I would still recommend option A, however. |
-Rachel-
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And what's option D?
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Well here. I'll give you the option of telling me how to play, so long as you can offer an option D which is still fun to me, and still involves doing the villainside content.
-Rachel- |
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That's kind of what I'm asking you to suggest. An option that lets me keep playing the game, have fun with it, and not break the canon utterly.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
And what's option D?
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-Rachel-
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That is odd, though I'm not sure what would have worked better. Something tied to SG bases would make sense (e.g. a Mission Computer option), but then some people would miss out. You could perhaps make a case for using the various stores (although it's questionable with many Natural heroes) or Vault Reserve (which is even worse), but that could be significantly more inconvenient in some cases.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
First of all, I don't actually have a problem with Dual Builds, themselves. I have a problem with the necessity to visit a trainer to swap them.
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At any rate, I think there's a difference between (1) suspension of disbelief for gamey elements and (2) dubbing in your own story over the actual content, so I question the relevance of much of that discussion.
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Frankly, letting me switch by myself would have been ideal. I know the system is there to safeguard against people abusing dual builds to just flip-flop between setups, but surely there has to be a better balancing factor than having to visit a trainer? Again, just upping the timer would have solved that problem completely, but then I don't know. It just bugs me.|
Originally Posted by Teeth
That is odd, though I'm not sure what would have worked better. Something tied to SG bases would make sense (e.g. a Mission Computer option), but then some people would miss out. You could perhaps make a case for using the various stores (although it's questionable with many Natural heroes) or Vault Reserve (which is even worse), but that could be significantly more inconvenient in some cases.
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Needing help to learn new powers, that I can understand. You're developing them. But needing help switch setups? There's no excuse for that!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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How about we just come to the realization that City of Heroes/Villains is a video game based on fiction and comic-book science, and that everyone is entitled to their own interpretations of it?!
It's just a game, people...
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So my opinion that "you're stupid" is not flamebait as well, then. I don't care how you react, I merely think that you're not nearly as creative as you think you are, and that your expression of disdain for someone who doesn't fit into your narrow definition of "How Things Should Be(tm)" shows a rigidity of thought which is to be highly discouraged.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
My opinion that "it's stupid" is not flamebait. It's my opinion. Flamebait would imply I was deliberately trying to illicit a negative reaction from you, which is frankly not the truth of the matter.
You are correct that I would still recommend option A, however. |
It's also my opinion that every time I see one of your posts in this thread that it serves only to belittle or demean someone, but apparently you're merely expressing your opinion. Thus, since that's not an issue, I decided to express my own.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Perhaps you should go back and read that chain of replies. The only time I actually said it "was stupid" was after Steampunkette herself had used the phrase to summarize what she thought I was saying. Thus the whole putting it in quotes.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
So my opinion that "you're stupid" is not flamebait as well, then. I don't care how you react, I merely think that you're not nearly as creative as you think you are, and that your expression of disdain for someone who doesn't fit into your narrow definition of "How Things Should Be(tm)" shows a rigidity of thought which is to be highly discouraged.
It's also my opinion that every time I see one of your posts in this thread that it serves only to belittle or demean someone, but apparently you're merely expressing your opinion. Thus, since that's not an issue, I decided to express my own. |
You; however, are most definitely trolling.
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I'm sure there's a way or two that someone could harshly abuse the ability to change builds even once per TF in the middle of a mission, even if it's badly interruptible. Nothing comes immediately to mind--can you not just WW-port out at that point, change builds, and Mac-port back?--but that's probably what they were worried about.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Again, just upping the timer would have solved that problem completely, but then I don't know. It just bugs me.
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Swapping builds recharges every power you have. That could be somewhat exploitable, if allowed anywhere - particularly during a mission - and on a relatively short recharge.|
Originally Posted by Teeth
I'm sure there's a way or two that someone could harshly abuse the ability to change builds even once per TF in the middle of a mission, even if it's badly interruptible. Nothing comes immediately to mind--can you not just WW-port out at that point, change builds, and Mac-port back?--but that's probably what they were worried about.
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And I would like to issue an apology to Scythus, since I did go back and check more than just the past few replies. I should've gone back a bit further, but while I could set aside Sam's responses due to prior name recognition (and the white and red avatar) I didn't have a similar mental link with Scythus. The obnoxious and insulting responses I remembered from the first two pages of the thread were from someone else, and they blurred together after a few pages to where I responded to the one who was still posting.
I may not like making mistakes, but at least I'm willing to admit to them.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yikes! Yeah, that would be a problem. I guess you could still do the port-to-port thing just for the sake of recharging, say, your Elude, but at the cost of massive bother, I can kind of see that as balanced. In this case, it's not the recharge that's the problem, it's the ability to use it inside a mission, and that I could easily see as explotiable.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Swapping builds recharges every power you have. That could be somewhat exploitable, if allowed anywhere - particularly during a mission - and on a relatively short recharge.
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And, you know, it's not so much the exploit that bothers me as the fact that, if this became common practice, it would mean I'd be expected to use it, and given that two builds means twice the slotting... That's a scary prospect. Besides, it would pervert the meaning of having two different builds for two different situations.
I still don't like doing that at contacts, though. There has to be some way to rig it so that I DO have to leave my mission and go somewhere, but still not require another person to change it for me. Perhaps slap a few techno-magical crystals around the maps for us to switch via? Yeah, it's still kind of drawing power from something else, but at least it's not SOMEONE else, which would be enough for me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No.
No. No. No. I'm not going to accept that because a tech hero has been around since the 70's he can train every person in the whole game in every power regardless of source, method of application, or character's understanding. I'll tell you what. Let's find a Cop who's been around since the 70s. Now let's have him teach a class on being a Cop to all the Psychic Detectives, Forensic Analysts, K9 Trainers, and Computer Technicians. And he'll train them -all- in how to do their jobs in the way they are individually supposed to do it which he has never in his life done. |
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| Training someone to do something you've never in your life -done- is a stretch. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And as far as the trainer debate goes: Just because you learned how to throw a fireball doesn't mean you know how to effectively use it in combat.
I know how to fire a gun, but that doesn't mean I would be an effective member of a special forces team, because I have never been trained to use a gun in a combat situation. The trainers aren't teaching you how to throw a fireball, they're teaching you how to throw a fireball in combat. As far as they're concerned, a fireball is no different than a gun. Their job is to teach you how to use the tools at your disposal in a combat scenario. |
The trainers aren't teaching you how to throw a fireball, they're teaching you how to use it effectively. Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you automatically have the knowledge to apply that skill to a situation where people's lives depend on you doing it correctly.
Just because I know how to shoot a gun does NOT make me a soldier. As far as a trainer is concerned, a gun and a fireball are the same: They are both weapons which can kill innocent people if used recklessly. Their job is to make sure you have a proper understanding of tactics before they send you out with a deadly weapon.
It is perfectly logical that any city that has people running around with these kinds of abilities would want to ensure that they know what the hell they're doing with them.
You say training someone to do something you've never done is a stretch.
So, you're saying back Alley Brawler has never FOUGHT before? Now THAT'S a stretch.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
As a person who's been watching alot of anime, and been reading comics for YEARS, (decades accually) and being a Wrestling fan for years and years. (not as much now) To me, the line tends to blur as to who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. Bad guys go good, good guys fall from grace, are redemed, and bad guys relaps all the time. As a result, my BAD guys do alot of GOOD things prolly for the wrong reasons. I don't really consider any of them "evil". Depending on how much work it is, they may very well all become rouges when the time comes. My original plan was to shift them all to good guys, but, in my little comic book world i'm making, you need bad guys. No bad guys means there's no need for good guys. So some will stay "bad", but non will ever really be evil. (although my 2 stalkers i do kind of play like hitmen. And is kind of on the evil side truth be told...)
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Even that can be a stretch; how does Back Alley Brawler know how to train my Dark Defender on how to forcibly summon a soul from the Netherworld?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The trainers aren't teaching you how to throw a fireball, they're teaching you how to use it effectively. Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you automatically have the knowledge to apply that skill to a situation where people's lives depend on you doing it correctly.
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Me: Hey there Back Alley Brawler. I know I'm strong enough to force a soul from the great beyond into helping me for a while, but I need to know how.
Him: . . . .I punch things kid. Punch them hard. So....punch the universe?
Me: Ok then, never mind. Hey there Castle; I need to know how to yank a soul against its will from the netherworld to help me in combat.
Castle: I'm a mutant that can shoot things with fire. Well, I can also heal you with this tricorder thingie I got. Does that help?
Me: Right. Ok, Mynx? Can you hel-
Mynx: Get away from me! The Furries will find me if you stick around me too long! Shoo, shoo!
Me: o_o;
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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Originally Posted by KianaZero
Even that can be a stretch; how does Back Alley Brawler know how to train my Dark Defender on how to forcibly summon a soul from the Netherworld?
Me: Hey there Back Alley Brawler. I know I'm strong enough to force a soul from the great beyond into helping me for a while, but I need to know how. Him: . . . .I punch things kid. Punch them hard. So....punch the universe? Me: Ok then, never mind. Hey there Castle; I need to know how to yank a soul against its will from the netherworld to help me in combat. Castle: I'm a mutant that can shoot things with fire. Well, I can also heal you with this tricorder thingie I got. Does that help? Me: Right. Ok, Mynx? Can you hel- Mynx: Get away from me! The Furries will find me if you stick around me too long! Shoo, shoo! Me: o_o; |
Kinda missed my point there.
He's not showing you HOW to do it. He's simply making sure that YOU know how to do it competently.
I look at it as like going to get a drivers license. The person riding in the car with you isn't teaching you how to drive, they're just making sure that you know how to do so wthin a certain criteria of safety. You can't just say "Hi, I know how to drive, can I have my license now?" and expect them to just hand you one.
Think about it. This is a city where people are given a license to be a hero. Do you REALLY think they're just going to take your word for it that you know what you're doing? No, they are going to make you pass some kind of test so they have documented proof that you can summon a being from the netherworld without innocent bystanders getting killed/eaten/sucked into the abyss because you did it wrong.
It is safe to assume that all the trainers are qualified to judge whether you are competent enough to use a power you developed on your own without endangering the public. A driving instructor doesn't necessarily have to know how to drive a manual transmission to be able to tell if you can or not, do they?
THAT'S way you go to a trainer to level up. It's not learning how to do stuff, it's to gain clearance to use your new abilities while you're out among the general public.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Ah, okay. That sounds more like how it'd work. The way it's been worded earlier in the thread makes it sound like Back Alley Brawler knows how to suck a soul from beyond simply by being one of the Surviving Eight.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
He's not showing you HOW to do it. He's simply making sure that YOU know how to do it competently.
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I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
I've had a "wannabe hero" kicking around the Rogue Isles since GR was confirmed. The trick I've used is to avoid going too deeply into the actual CoV plot and do neutral/heroic architect content. All I need now is GR to go live and a ticket for a more heroic name.
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Heck, I'm already planning to abuse it for Mission Teleport and Self Destruct. It's not highly exploitable, but there are certainly times when I can reliably plan for a 15-minute break, and 15 minutes is a lot faster than 2.5 hours!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In this case, it's not the recharge that's the problem, it's the ability to use it inside a mission, and that I could easily see as explotiable.
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| I still don't like doing that at contacts, though. There has to be some way to rig it so that I DO have to leave my mission and go somewhere, but still not require another person to change it for me. Perhaps slap a few techno-magical crystals around the maps for us to switch via? |
Thing is, if you're using something that exists now, you'd want something that's already in the co-op zones... I think that does limit it to Trainers or something new, sadly.
(At any rate, it's not a big issue. I doubt there are even many people who care to pay to slot up two full builds on the same character, it's not really a major game mechanic right now.)
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BAB to a new Hero: "No no no... how many times do i have to tell you, you don't throw your fireball at a fleeing hellion... because it's an AOE... beause it hits more people then just one... because you set 7 inncent people on fire to take care of one guy a small flares attack could have... of course it matters... because 7 people... look, look, your obviously not ready for lvl 7... you need more work... No you can't go to Ms. Liberity instead... gah!"|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
He's not showing you HOW to do it. He's simply making sure that YOU know how to do it competently.
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Kind of like that?
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Ehhhhhh I could -almost- accept this... But it also requires all you're "Fallen Angels" and "Risen Devils" or any character with a backstory that doesn't include "Brand New Hero" to walk up to a guy to relearn skills they should logically already know according to their background.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Your problem, my answer to it.
The trainers aren't teaching you how to throw a fireball, they're teaching you how to use it effectively. Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you automatically have the knowledge to apply that skill to a situation where people's lives depend on you doing it correctly. Just because I know how to shoot a gun does NOT make me a soldier. As far as a trainer is concerned, a gun and a fireball are the same: They are both weapons which can kill innocent people if used recklessly. Their job is to make sure you have a proper understanding of tactics before they send you out with a deadly weapon. It is perfectly logical that any city that has people running around with these kinds of abilities would want to ensure that they know what the hell they're doing with them. You say training someone to do something you've never done is a stretch. So, you're saying back Alley Brawler has never FOUGHT before? Now THAT'S a stretch. |
I've played an Aussie heroine who was big stuff down under, who came to America to see what all the fuss was about. She should already know how to use all her powers in combat.
Other people play angels who lose portions of their power when they come to Earth because (insert reason here). It doesn't make sense for their character to go to a trainer all of the time to relearn all their abilities.
So yes. That -might- be a good way to canonically explain them. The trainers could make sense in that fashion... If your character's backstory falls into an extremely narrow band of "Brand New Hero". And even -then- only when you're learning how to use complex or incredibly dangerous powers as opposed to single-target effects, generally speaking. If I know "Flares" as a Fire Blaster there's not a whole bunch of stretch for "Fire Blast" really. since they do the same thing in a different animation.
Just because you know how to use a gun doesn't mean you're a soldier. But if you were pressed into a fight you'd be able to pull the trigger. You don't need weeks or months of intensive combat training to know "Point gun at bad man, pull trigger, bad man goes away" It might be an oversimplification, but, after being "Trained" in an AoE the first time to avoid the civvies or any items that look terribly important as evidence... You really shouldn't need a lot more help when you get your next AoE. Especially if the superpower is innate (Mutant/Science).
-Rachel-
You missed my second post Steampunkette, in which I explained better what I meant.
He's not showing you how to use your powers. He's there to make sure that you know what the hell you're doing with your powers.
You can't walk into a DMV and say "Hi, I know how to drive, and I own a car, can I have my license now?". You have to PROVE that you know how to drive within the governing body's minimum safety requirements. Why should getting a Hero License be any different?
It's a city that issues a license to be a hero, and that city is liable for any damage a hero they gave a license to does. You can be damn sure they are going to make sure anyone they give a license to is competent enough to not incinerate 100 innocent bystanders in a fight with a villain. Imagine the lawsuits that would happen if a licensed hero destroys a mile long section of the train tracks, sending hundreds of people plunging to their deaths.
Sure, you might be 1,000 years old and have had the ability to set things on fire with your mind since birth....but it's highly doubtful anyone is just going to take your word for it and hand you a license, and all the police powers that go with it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Just be glad it's as simple as Talk to trainer, get new power.
If it were anything like it would be in the real world it would be:
Talk to the trainer and demonstrate your competence with the new power. The trainer then signs a piece of paper stating that you are competent with the new power.
But it doesn't end there!
Then you have to take that piece of paper to the proper office for processing and submit to a psyche evaluation to prove that you're mentally stable enough to be wielding said power. (you didn't REALLY think they were going to let just anyone who can hit a target run around with an assault rifle, or other destructive abilities, did you?)
Provided you passed the psyche profile, you then get to wait 7-10 business days for your application to be processed and approved by the appropriate authorities. Then, once it's approved, it needs to go BACK to the original office to be processed again, and put into the database.
Once all that is done, you will then be issued a new Hero ID card that states you are now Security level 2 and have been deemed trustworthy enough to use the power "Fire Blast" in a public location.
And you'd have to do that EVERY time you gained a level.
Still think talking to a trainer and getting a new power is silly?
Seriously, if Paragon City's government is ANYTHING like a real world government the red tape and bureaucracy you'd have to wade through to be a hero would be mind numbing. I'll stick with "Talk to trainer, get new power", thank you very much
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Apology accepted. I may not be the most social of people, but I certainly know I've said and haven't said.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Swapping builds recharges every power you have. That could be somewhat exploitable, if allowed anywhere - particularly during a mission - and on a relatively short recharge.
And I would like to issue an apology to Scythus, since I did go back and check more than just the past few replies. I should've gone back a bit further, but while I could set aside Sam's responses due to prior name recognition (and the white and red avatar) I didn't have a similar mental link with Scythus. The obnoxious and insulting responses I remembered from the first two pages of the thread were from someone else, and they blurred together after a few pages to where I responded to the one who was still posting. I may not like making mistakes, but at least I'm willing to admit to them. |
First of all, I don't actually have a problem with Dual Builds, themselves. I have a problem with the necessity to visit a trainer to swap them. Why the (REALLY redacted) hell do I have to visit someone else to shift my stance and alter my preparation? Even if we accept that the trainers can help us evolve our powers, which admittedly is a stretch, there's no reason for them to be able to switch between two different setups. What, did I leave my M30 Grenades at Positron or something?
And, you know, I don't think that's even needed. By all means, if you want to keep us from swapping builds too often, then just slap a half-hour to two-hour recharge on the thing, but let us do it in the field. Give it a 60-second activation time if need be, just SOMETHING that doesn't require me to run back to my trainer every time I want to swap!
Once again, if there were Hero-tagged missions doable in the Rogue Isles that only Rogues could take part of (which I kind of doubt), then I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever. In fact, I WANT to see this kind of thing, because it would really bring Rogues and Vigilantes to life as more than just faux factions. And, really, with the advent of Going Rogue, I really have very little ground to stand on when it comes to this subject, because the iconically obvious alignment of both sides is about to become a lot more ambiguous, and that's by design. So, really, I'd say wait for Going Rogue, and the we can pick this back up