Redside Heroics

Actually i think that depends entirely on your understanding of reality. The Resistance knows Tyrant to be a tyrant and not the hero of the world that the mass media portrays him to be.

For a person that -accepts- the Mass media and what they've likely been taught in school, Emperor Cole is just as sweet, humble, and kind as Thailand's King Bhumibol Adulyadej (a man who, in his youth, studied in a buddhist temple and traveled across Thailand talking to locals and helping them out in whatever ways he could) being a hero under his rule is just as noble as it is in Paragon, if not moreso.

If you believe the Resistance, then it's easy to become a hero on the side of rebels and nigh-terrorists.

Basically you can be a good person in either direction. Either good in a lawful manner (uphold society to protect the populace in what is, ostensibly, a utopian society) or a chaotic one (destroy the established regime to bring freedom back)

Ultimately i think it will be harder to play a villain in Praetoria than a hero... As you'd have to just be flat out evil, which both sides would probably resent...

-Rachel-

Short short recap of the other thread:

Tyrant 'Apologists': Well, maybe Tyrant won't be that bad a guy.
Other side: NO! He's absolutely EVIL! He's a mass murdering grand-child molester. Which is why it's perfectly acceptable for Heroes to immediately join what would, on Primal Earth, amount to a terrorist organization, topple the global government and FORCE democracy on the people of Praetoria, whether they admit they want it or not!
TA: But then the side switching mechanic makes no sense. There's no slippery slope of morality if Heroes are joining a force of pure evil.
OS: Well, maybe your hero is an idiot?

So if Tyrant is really that evil, then very clearly it would make that much more sense to take him down.

I'm only commenting that the theme these "heroic" redsiders keep chanting with "dark dogooders" challenging an "oppressive government" will be perfectly represented in Praetoria. Even more so that the Rogue Isles, as Recluse has this whole social Darwinism thing going on where those who are willing to backstab for power can get it and keep it. Tyrant, on the other hand, has the "My way or the highway" philosophy.

Actually, one could apply the Lawful/Chaotic labels to the Villains as easily as they do Heroes. Lawful Evil Villains would enjoy the freedom crushing and (implied) civilian killing that Tyrant's laws offer, while the Chaotic Evil villains can find Tearing down an evil government as much fun as a just one.

Ehhhhhh... Maybe? Though both Emperor Cole and the Resistance seem to be the type of people to fight against villains, regardless of which side they're on.

But we'll see!

-Rachel-

I recall reading somewhere that Tyrant is perfectly fine with you 'replacing' your boss if you can preform his task better, but very much frowns on challenging himself. So there is some similarity to him and Recluse.

I'm interested also in what Recluse is going to do with the Heroes going to Preatoria. I don't really expect he'll just stay put when there's potential chaos to manipulate. It would be slightly lame if he did.

That's a good list, and I'll give you a few things, but:

Security/Threat Levels: Those don't actually need a ret-con. Most fiction and at least a few real-world organisation use security levels to grant clearance to parts of a whole to certain people and more parts of it to certain others. It doesn't matter what exactly you explain it as, it's just a system for ensuring heroes have some way to be scored on their expected performance.

Combat Levels: Yeah, that's a bit more meta-game than real fiction, but it's more an idealised representation of the relative strength of a hero, the relative strength of an enemy and the gulf between the two. It's "OVER 9000!!!" in a more orderly form.

Trainers: I don't see how that is a problem. The process of training itself is cut out entirely (as in, you pick from a menu whereas something like Revenant would have made you actually TRAIN), but the concept of visiting a veteran handler to get advice on how to train up a brand new ability is not at all meta-game. In fact, games where you spontaneously develop a brand new ability our of the aether without having used anything even remotely like it is rather less believable.

Contacts: Outside of the physical limitations that prevent them from ever moving away from where they've had their shoes nailed to the ground, what's the problem with contacts? Even a non-super-hero detective will have his cadre of contacts, some from the actual crime organisations, some experts with information, and he will gather intel from them. Granted, he won't actually get his orders from them, and to this extent I agree that many missions assume you're doing jobs FOR the contacts, rather than getting information FROM the contacts and doing jobs for other reasons. To that extent, I agree that they DO break immersion somewhat.

Security Zones: This confuses me. What's the problem with not allowing a hero to enter a zone that he's never going to survive in? Granted, the meta-game limitations of not allowing sidekicks in always sucked, and were that in place, I'd have seriously called foul, but I have nothing against the concept of NOT allowing characters into certain zones if they're below a certain level or accompanied by someone who's allowed to enter. I have no problem bringing a newbie into Ouroboros, but why can't I bring a newbie into Cimerora. If I'm trusted to be there, am I not trusted to bring help? The solution of just removing the restrictions is too crude, in my opinion, but I'll take it.

Ambient crime: Well, probably not, but your heroes won't skip a crime scene unless you specifically choose to ignore it, so I'm not really sure you can blame the game for that one. Yes, crime never ends, but really, isn't that what you'd expect? You'll never stop all crime ever committed ever ever, so you really need to expect that no matter what you do, more will occur. Either you bust every mugger along the way, or you don't, but that is your choice.

INF: Yeah... This I'm going to give you without context. Prior to the Markets, I could KIND OF see Influence/Infamy serving as some kind of non-tangible IOU currency or reputation, but when we have markets where we're basically trading it like cash money... Yeah, it's money, and it's immersion-breaking to keep calling it Influence or Infamy. It's $$. Drop the pretence crap and call it what it is. Trying to keep claiming it's anything BUT just kills any sort of immersion related to the economy, and with the completely meta game that is inventions, that's the last thing we need.

And I'm really trying not to spin these. I did the best I could to avoid using any "but maybe" justifications and stuck just to what makes direct sense out of context and without need for justification.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This one I've got to call you on.

My level 4 Fire/Fire mutation blaster walks up to Back Alley Brawler and asks his advice on how to hurl a ball of fire granted by my innate mutation. Brawler knows how to do that -and- explain it?

My level 2 Gravity/Force Field Science Controller who I RP as having control over time itself walks up to Brawler and asks him to teach her how to reach through reality to grab a forklift from a junkyard 3 years ago and sling it at a foe before returning it to it's appropriate place in the timestream. And he knows how to do it AND explain it?

Brawler is a Guy. Sure he's a hero and a Boxer. but the man uses technological boxing gloves. He shouldn't be able to teach my magic user the right words to call forth magical ice as easily as he teaches newbie fighters how to box.

So no. Trainers make FAR less sense in the context of a super-hero game (where powers are generally inherent to the character) than it does for a Fantasy game. though the exceptions to that CAN BE Magic and natural. You don't teach someone how to be a mutant. You don't teach someone how to be a gene-spliced catgirl. And you certainly don't teach someone to be an alien. But for martial artists (Boxers, fighters, gun-wielders, sword-swingers, axe-men, etc) it makes sense and also for people who LEARN magic. It can make sense for -some- Tech origin people...

But overall it's a horrible time-wasting measure put into the game to make you spend an extra 5 minutes running to the trainer before logging out.

-Rachel-

What, it's too hard to imagine that the most popular heroes in town don't have a staff of assistant trainers on hand where some might know how to train your mystical character? Just because we don't see him taking you to his private gym doesn't mean its not possible. You're already mentally rewriting the entirety of CoV, so why is it so hard to think BABs has specialized aides at his gym?

I think you've got it backwards here, mate. It's because we need to do this here that makes it seem like not that much more to put a Hero in the Isles. Taking another look at my list, I suppose I could have simplified it to "anything that has to do with either XP or Inf."

Not really. Any successful trainer is going to logically have his own franchise.

Okay. So he's got assistants to train my Magic user in learning new spells.

Does he also have Mutant trainers who can help my mutant hurl fireballs? That's pretty presumptuous, in itself, that it's something even other fire-users can teach. Do me a favor. Flex your left pectoral muscle. It's easy. all you do is focus on that muscle and move it. Can you do it? Keep trying. just flex that one muscle.

Why would it be any easier to teach a mutant how to throw a fireball using their mutant powers? And that's assuming it's a similar mutation! Fuerboll (my fire mutant) secretes a gelatinous oil-based substance that catches on fire when friction rubs across it. Pyro (of the X-men series) has Pyrokinetic control over flame, but can't create the stuff. Could -he- teach Fuerboll how to throw a fireball? No?

There are many, MANY character concepts for whom a "Trainer" makes no sense. how about a demon coming into power after being weakened by her inter-dimensional travel? Does she need a trainer to regain her strength? No. how about a superman styled character. Trainer? No.

-Rachel-

By that assumption, the whole premise of Charles Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters doesn't work because all the mutants have different powers and thus wouldn't be able to teach each other. But if you read X-Men at all, you'd know that this wasn't really the case. Xavier taught the original X-Men how to use their powers HIMSELF.

Seriously, if the X-Men can do it, then BAB's mutant assistant surely can.

Eh... Charles taught Jean Grey how to use hers telepathically. And Scott Summers how to keep his under control with the Specs. He didn't teach Wolverine how to heal faster or Beast how to jump.

I've always understood the X-Men as teaching mutants how to use their powers for GOOD instead of evil while also teaching them the basics they'll need to get ahead in life where, outside of his college, they'd be ostracized and attacked, insulted and assaulted, and likely drop out of school or use their powers for selfish and likely destructive ends.

Plus this isn't Marvel comics where one gene is the cause for all mutations and can be suppressed.

-Rachel-

Wolverine was not one of the original X-Men. The dude joined much later and already had a century of experience. In any case, the very first issue of X-Men has Xavier running the original team through a combat practice.

It is; however, stated in "Origin of Power" that the first atomic bomb is most likely responsible for mutants in CoH. So there is an overarching connection.

Combat practice is not the same as "Flex your left pectoral muscle"

Training someone to jump through a hoop is a physical training that any person can understand the mechanics of and fairly easily describe the mechanics of to another person. Same thing goes for climbing a rope. But flex your left pectoral muscle. use a mutant power you've never used before and I'll describe it in utterly subjective terms from my personal experiences.

You can't possibly describe something that subjective and individualized to someone else. It's like describing the color Green. It's Green. Someone else may perceive what you see as Green as Blue. But because his parents and teachers call it gree he calls it green. We'd never know that he has the -perception- of that color differently. Because he can't explain it as anything but green.

So flex that left pectoral muscle, Scythus. Or better yet, reach down inside and grab that tingly feeling and pull it up to the surface and make it into a fireball.

-Rachel-

And yet you can mentally delete an entire game's text and write your own story. Amazing.

A superpowered trainer is an acceptable stretch, but noble heroes resisting evil governments of their homeland going to Paragon City to rob banks and kill cops is reaching. Massive reaching.

Umm... You're the one arguing that a "Trainer" is feasible, Scythus... not me.

this isn't a Bugs Bunny Cartoon. I'm not going to mysticall argue for the Trainer's existence. You'd have to have gotten the conversation down to "Does not!" and "Does Too!" for that to even have a fraction of a chance to work.

And even then, I'd be going along with the joke. Not arguing for their feasibility.

-Rachel-

Edit: Ah! Misunderstood.

Nope. It's acceptable to you. And you also assume I have my heroes killing people and robbing banks. Though I do have some of my heroes play "Robin hood" with Arachnos' cash, or The Family's.

Edit Edit: Explaining the original, mistaken post: You seem shocked that I was willing to ignore the existence of trainers when I'm happy rewriting an entire storyline for my character every time I run a mission redside. So your second statement seemed utterly out of place and confused me. Though if you don't "Get It" by now ("It" being why I rewrite the storyline for different characters) then I'm at a loss as to what to tell you. Go back and re-read my posts. There's not really anything else I can say. I roleplay Heroes because I like playing heroes, not villains. My characters don't kill, even when fighting Arachnos, the Rikti, or the Rogue isles Police.

I don't know, I'd say not letting someone, even if it's the Devs themselves God Mode your character into something you don't want to play would be the smaller stretch than hand waving away an entire game mechanic.

And it doesn't matter whether it's your view on Training or mine, because BOTH are hand waving something in game. You say the Trainers have their own gym or gyms. I say the character doesn't need to be trained in his own abilities, and certainly not one judo throw at a time. The game says that Back Alley Brawler just tells you "Do this (what ever this may be) and you get the power called Dark Servant."

Yes, because sarcasm is ALWAYS saying the opposite of what you mean.

Damn straight.

Desperate reaching.

Psssst! not gonna get the kind of response you're looking for. Stop flamebaiting me, or I'll simply stop communicating with you.

-Rachel-