2x Experience Weekend is farming for people that don't admit they farm
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2010-03-08 14:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, seriously, I don't know what teams you play on, but I know that the vast majority of the times I play on teams, nobody pays attention to the story. More so you're talking about paper/radio missions. WHAT STORY?
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
But if you are grabbing Radio missions and chugging them as fast as possible without any regard to their stories...
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You clearly did not read the rest of the thread. Please read on. |
Originally Posted by Street_Wolf
No, seriously, I don't know what teams you play on, but I know that the vast majority of the times I play on teams, nobody pays attention to the story. More so you're talking about paper/radio missions. WHAT STORY?
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I was mainly doing story arc missions this weekend actually
Does not always detect CoH
I'll admit that double xp weekends do bring out some of the more greedy personality traits in some but no more than a large sale at your favorite shop i think.
I and several members of my SG did a marathon of Taskforces on Saturday from Positron to Numina. I was equally pleased by my tank progressing from level 42 to 49 during them as i was to cash in the nearly 300 merits i had gained.
as for powerleveling? i did my share of that as well.
you can only go through a story arc or taskforce so many times before you cease caring about the plot points and only care about when the twit who has entrusted the safety of millions to you, will also entrust you with their damnable phone number.
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Just a side-note, I usually never read stories (especially radio ones)...although I guess I read some/most of the arcs since I've been here almost 6 years)....but in general...I don't read the stories (even when 2xp is not on). |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
But if you are grabbing Radio missions and chugging them as fast as possible without any regard to their stories...
or if you are doing one arc after another for the XP and have no regard for the setting or scenery... or if you are rapidly pounding out Task Forces and skipping the clues because they bog you down... ... and all of this is brought on by the lust for XP brought on by Double Experience weekend? It seems to me that it's the exact same mentality as farming and that differences are irrelevant semantics. To clarify, I don't consider farming a bad thing, nor do I partake in it most of the time. Just food for thought that think farming is the anti-game. |
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Marcian, you're a venerable Tower of Logic, Reasoning, and Sanity, and I have the utmost respect for your opinion. But I have to ask:|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
But if you are grabbing Radio missions and chugging them as fast as possible without any regard to their stories...
or if you are doing one arc after another for the XP and have no regard for the setting or scenery... or if you are rapidly pounding out Task Forces and skipping the clues because they bog you down... |
For those of us who've been playing the game for 5 years and more, do you really expect us to read through the mission text, examine the clues, and delve into story lines that we've already experienced over and over and over again?
My theory is that at some point--because we haven't really gained any significant boost to the amount of content story-wise in a while--it all becomes farming, because you are just repeating missions you've done over and over and over again. Roll up any new character. Everything that new character will be something you've already done. Repeatedly. I challenge you to find a contact you haven't run through, a mission you haven't completed.
I'm sure others will disagree. But if we widen our perspective to encompass the entire lifetime of our characters and our careers within the game, we have to admit: it's just a case of repeating the same missions over and over again. I fail to see how that's different from farming. And honestly, once I've learned the lore, I'm not going to waste a lot of time learning it again.
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You're a veteran who's having a normal day.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
But if you are grabbing Radio missions and chugging them as fast as possible without any regard to their stories...
or if you are doing one arc after another for the XP and have no regard for the setting or scenery... or if you are rapidly pounding out Task Forces and skipping the clues because they bog you down... |
Molehill =/= mountain.
I sat around the market more than anything (got my build nearly done but still need 1 more piece to complete the Touch of Death set I was looking for to finish IOing all my attacks but am broke now...). I joined a few teams, tested out the build and then solo'ed by testing my old AE arc (been a while and for some odd reason, the last group in the last mission spawned 4 AVs instead of just 1...maybe its cause I have my setting to x4? I dunno...). Ah, and I tweeked my costumes while waiting for stuff to sell and got the last few Vanguard merits for my katana. All in all, business as usual for me.
Overall, I hate grinding. It's probably why I don't have that many lvl 50s, because I lose interest too fast...
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The basic error with the suggested theory of the people you're parodying is that it rests on acceptance of the condition of "farming is bad" as a truth or fact. "Farming is bad" is an opinion, not a fact (I know, I know, expecting people to know the difference on the Internet is asking a lot), held by people inappropriately attributing properties of one activity which is bad, namely, exploiting a broken mechanic, to something which is a method devoid of being good or bad.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Shame on farmers, who ruin the game by sitting in one place jamming on the attack button to level their characters much faster than intended.
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Of course, there are some that do consider the assumed condition described above as true but then, that's their prerogative. I could not care less about them as long as they don't start negatively influencing me. They actually amuse me more than anything because I get the imagery of the old bitty spying on her neighbors through shutters and binoculars whenever they pipe up about it.
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Thoughts:
1) I had a number of things to do this weekend that were more important than the game, so wasn't on much.
2) I don't get particularly upset at how other players like to play the game, and do not tolerate much in the way of nosy parkers who want to tell me how I am supposed to play the game, so I don't have much to say about farming, and if I preferred to farm, would not be much interested in what anyone else had to say about it.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
I had my XP turned off for the most of it and pretty much played for kicks like I always do. I did like the overall frenzy, though. There's something about 2XP/reactivation weekends that makes the game feel festive.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
I had my XP turned off for the most of it and pretty much played for kicks like I always do. I did like the overall frenzy, though. There's something about 2XP/reactivation weekends that makes the game feel festive.
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I usually turn XP off during double XP weekends as well (or run a 50).
The OP makes some interesting points, I think.
Larry: Owen, what the hell did you do to my wife?
Owen: Well I don't want to say on the phone - all I can tell you is that I killed her last night.
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sounds about what i end up doing these days. before i was able to turn off XP, i'd keep off any of my alts that were near 50 on DXP weekends since i liked to save the last DING! for the end of a TF or something similar. still it is cool to see so many folk on during those weekends.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
I had my XP turned off for the most of it and pretty much played for kicks like I always do. I did like the overall frenzy, though. There's something about 2XP/reactivation weekends that makes the game feel festive.
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To me the OP seems like an elegant attempt at a troll thread.
I'll posit this: that true farmers laugh at DXP weekends. On Freedom anyways, the AP AE was as busy as ever with farms. The only reason I can see for this is that they still garnered their XP at a far faster rate than even the most hardcore normal team radio-mission players on the DXP, the ones the OP makes fun of. The AE farmers continue to do their thing even during DXP because even DXP doesn't come close to what they can get doing their business as usual.
And no one seems to have a problem with this.
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I can see why you'd think that, but I promise I'm not. |
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
To me the OP seems like an elegant attempt at a troll thread.
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Not really. Speaking for myself as a farmer, I REALLY ramp it up for 2XP weekends. Doing those old forgotten about farms maps and some that people probably hadn't thought of farming. I would have farmed the last mission of the BSF, but at 45, what's the point. Oh how I wish villains had more SF's.
| 2x Experience Weekend is farming for people that don't admit they farm |
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
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"Farming" is a term, and since everyone defines it differently, and because so many people make the presumption that in any discussion everyone must honor their own personal definition of the term, discussions of farming end up being just semantic games.|
Originally Posted by TyrantMikey
My theory is that at some point--because we haven't really gained any significant boost to the amount of content story-wise in a while--it all becomes farming, because you are just repeating missions you've done over and over and over again. Roll up any new character. Everything that new character will be something you've already done. Repeatedly. I challenge you to find a contact you haven't run through, a mission you haven't completed.
I'm sure others will disagree. But if we widen our perspective to encompass the entire lifetime of our characters and our careers within the game, we have to admit: it's just a case of repeating the same missions over and over again. I fail to see how that's different from farming. And honestly, once I've learned the lore, I'm not going to waste a lot of time learning it again. |
The devs have stated their definition of farming multiple times, at least where it is specifically used in this context: farming is problematic to the game. And that definition is this:
Farming is the act of performing the same task repeatedly, specifically with the sole or primarily intent of generating the maximum amount of or significantly higher than normal levels of in-game rewards.
In this case "task" refers to something specifically designed within the game to generate a specific reward. It could refer to the act of killing the same minion over and over again for its specific rewards, or it could refer to the act of completing the same mission over and over again for its specific rewards. It cannot refer to the act of executing an attack over and over again in different situations, because the act of executing an attack is not a "task" designed by the devs to generate a reward.
The definition is very specific and not easily paraphrasable, because every element of the definition points to why the devs are specifically concerned with that specific type of activity. In particular, the definition focuses on the act of generating rewards for the sake of generating rewards by repeatedly banging on the same reward-generator. That creates two problems for the devs: there is the design issue of whether or not the rewards for that task are being demonstrated to be too high which suggests a failure of reward implementation, and it makes them uncomfortable that there exist activities that are only performed for their reward generation ability which suggests a failure of game design.
If your definition of farming doesn't match this one, then your definition of farming might be something that other players don't approve of, but its not something the devs have stated they disapprove of.
And in any case, farming without exploits is something the devs don't consider a punishable offense. It usually suggests to them a fault on their part of some kind. Farming with exploits is something the devs have said repeatedly that no one should be surprised to see both revocative and punitive action taken against.
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So I need to take my time and really enjoy the setting and scenery that I have virtually memorized due to seeing the same maps over and over again. I need to take the time and read clues and such on TFs that I have also done more times than I wish to count. How about no? |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
or if you are doing one arc after another for the XP and have no regard for the setting or scenery...
or if you are rapidly pounding out Task Forces and skipping the clues because they bog you down... |
With the new leveling rules with TFs, TFs seemed like bad places to actually level. Oh look, even con mobs. Yay? I was disappointed in the Synapse team that was at 15, went slow, but rather safe past the first mob, and then decided to reset the TF because it would take too long/be too hard. +5 double exp at 15 on a balanced team and we freaking reset. No sense of adventure in kids these days.
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I'd have to go back and check it, but if I remember the quote exactly right, this isn't quite what Castle had to say on the subject. If I'm remembering it right, the reward was the entire intent, not just the primary intent, and "fun" wasn't part of the equation (since he did clarify that some people find repeating content for speed runs and whatnot fun). If I'm remembering the post right, he also said that it was his personal definition and not an NCSoft "official stance", too, and I haven't seen any other redname post with a definition of farming.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs have stated their definition of farming multiple times, at least where it is specifically used in this context: farming is problematic to the game. And that definition is this:
Farming is the act of performing the same task repeatedly, specifically with the sole or primarily intent of generating the maximum amount of or significantly higher than normal levels of in-game rewards. |
But yes, he did say that in the context of doing something that you don't find fun repeatedly solely in order to receive higher than normal rewards, that was "farming" and was bad for the game.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I did bounce that basic wording off of him, actually before the Architect issues arose, and I've been quoting it since before I14.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'd have to go back and check it, but if I remember the quote exactly right, this isn't quite what Castle had to say on the subject. If I'm remembering it right, the reward was the entire intent, not just the primary intent, and "fun" wasn't part of the equation (since he did clarify that some people find repeating content for speed runs and whatnot fun). If I'm remembering the post right, he also said that it was his personal definition and not an NCSoft "official stance", too, and I haven't seen any other redname post with a definition of farming.
But yes, he did say that in the context of doing something that you don't find fun repeatedly solely in order to receive higher than normal rewards, that was "farming" and was bad for the game. |
Even the devs will state ambiguous things while in the act of explaining their position, so I tried to derive a very precise version of different things they had said in the past. The reason why my version says "primary or sole intent" is because saying "only intent" creates the obvious trivial loophole you partially reference in your statement on "fun" - that anyone who enjoys earning massive rewards has the ability to assert two intents by implication.
While Castle's definition isn't the official corporate one, the one I state above is also consistent with everything Positron said, and everything Paragon Studios did, in regards to the architect rewards issues. I doubt the players will get as precise of a definition directly from PS, because it opens the door to semantic games. The one I offered above is, in my judgment, as precisely consistent with the devs consensus opinion** on deleterious farming as I think is possible short of a pronouncement approved by the collective reward team.
** The devs are not a hive mind. Lots of people are involved in the process of designing, implementing, and balancing rewards and reward-related systems, and they don't all see things in the exact same way. Positron as a point of view. War Witch probably has her own distinct point of view. Synapse has his point of view. Castle has his point of view. Developers and Producers you've probably never heard of have their point of view. MMO development is a delegated and consensus driven enterprise - at least in my experience it seems to be, here.
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I don't believe you're trolling, M_T, I believe you're just garden-variety wrong. How long do you think it takes to read and comprehend the paper/radio missions, and the arc mission briefings? And how long should be spent in contemplation of the above? Personally, when I open up the paper I have already read all three descriptions in the time it took me to get to the second comma in this sentence, and by the time I reach the third comma here, (yes that one) I've already decided what mission my character is most likely to take, chosen it, and am en route to it. In the time it took me to write that last sentence I've made it through the arc briefing and headed off to that mission.
The teams I was on this past weekend, several different PuGs worth, did radio/papers, bank jobs, and arc missions in combination. Whatever sounded good we did. There was plenty of chatter. No resetting of a single mission. It sounds as though you define "farming" in the same way that I, every teammate I had, and I daresay a majority of the player population would define playing the game. It was just quicker, and using the word "intended" negatively is a rather odd choice considering somebody with authority decided to double the xp. I'll be doing pretty much the same thing I did this past weekend in a few minutes, only this time I...won't be farming? Or is it still farming. I'm confused.
What Day Job is it that grants an experience bonus upon mission completion? Law Enforcer maybe? I have a character sitting in a police station right now so she can get a law enforcement-related title, if I log her in tonight will I be then be farming? Huh.
I've no doubt there was plenty of farming, by anyone's definition, done this past weekend. But to assume that everyone did it is quite a leap. Plenty of cybering done this past weekend too one imagines, as well as marketeering, character-creating, bio-writing, dancing in the D...geesh, how did anybody do anything!
Replace "farming" with "power-leveling" throughout here, and it still won't fly.
I did missions as normal. The only thing I do differently for the double XP weekends is that I focus on my slower leveling characters, especially my defenders. I didn't gain more than one level with any given character. No farming for me.
Am I a rare exception to the double XP farming rule? I doubt it.
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I appreciate your demeaning faith in my character. |
Originally Posted by Primal
I don't believe you're trolling, M_T, I believe you're just garden-variety wrong.
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(Very tired and crunched for time. Can't give the rest of the post the respect it deserves at this time.
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Hey, wrong is okay. Somebody who's not occasionally wrong is not to be trusted.
So this is a shades of gray thread then?
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