My personal feeling has been since closed beta that they erred on the side of weak with the intent of buffing after datamining.
::shrugs::
Still an interesting discussion to me. If I were a betting man, however, I'd gamble that the dev's will be more likely to buff the effects of swap ammo than they would the overall damage of the set. Throw in a tweak to the HoB's recharge and call it a spread.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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... Ice Storm is in Ice Blast, you know the Blaster Primary power set.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Yea, my ice/ice blaster is overpowered too. I got a stoopid Blizzard AND an Ice Storm, even though ice storm is in my 2ndary, i think it does WAY too much damage with my stupid Aim AND Build Up.
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Not to mention that it does less damage than the Equivilant in Fire Blast, due to also giving -10% recharge. (Interesting that 10% recharge is worth a 7% damage diffrence)
I don't think eryq was being serious
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You're gonna be pissed when you get divorced 5 years from now and think back to all the DXPs that you missed out on. You can get married and divorced anytime in your life, but DXP only happens once in awhile|
Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
Sounds like fun. Only one problem though, I'm not gonna be able to play much during double exp this weekend. Its the anniversary of when I met my fiance and spending time with her is more important than playing this game. It might be a while before I hit 50 with a Pistols blaster. When I do though it'll be a blast(or 2 or 3).
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"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Ah,the force is strong in you, young one. |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I don't think eryq was being serious
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Let me help you out with this because you obviously don't know how Defiance 2.0 operates. There is a specific formula that the devs use that assigns the size of the +dam buff from Defiance based on the animation times of the attacks. The durations are also manipulated so that they last exactly 7.5 seconds after the attack finishes animating so that you can actually take full advantage of them. This was done so that, as long as you're saturating your attack string, pretty much every Blaster is getting the exact same +dam buffs. It's remarkably interesting actually.|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
The one thing that I consistently see MISSING from these arguments is is this- DP is the first set designed FROM THE GROUND UP with Defiance 2.0 in play. The proliferated sets were tweaked yes, but this is the one that was designed with the Devs thinking ok.. as they blast they are getting a stacking damage buff every x seconds... OF COURSE THE BASE DAMAGE WILL BE LOWER. It may suck.. but thats the thinking from a balance standpoint.
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Acting as if the set is somehow weaker because it's designed to get the exact same +dam buffs as every other blast set, not to mention that it's not just a Blaster set, is simply facepalm worthy. DP doesn't get anything special from Defiance that any other set doesn't already get. Defiance is something that they can tack on to any existing set in order to provide the Blaster bonus damage. It's not something that requires full rebalancing for lower damage.
Hail of Bullets is pbaoe? That's REALLY sad.
Mike Spectre � 50 Warshade (Virtue)
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suspicious... and what's with the facepalm fetish? I wish I could travel back in time, change Statesman's mind, he stays, numbers and make-believe numbers people make up, never are known and we play a game, instead of a massively multiplayer online math game.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Welcome to this episode of Umbral's "Get Your Information Correct, Please!"
Mids' doesn't handle rolling DoTs correctly. FSC really has a base damage of 121.44. Mids' also doesn't have the proper damage on Shield Charge because it wasn't increased to account for the AT mods change. SC really has a base damage of 200.2 damage. Golden Dragonfly deals 164 base damage in a 10' long, 20' arc. You can get 2, at most 3, target with a single application of GD and it requires a decent bit of placement. The hard cap on the number of targets is 10, but it's literally impossible to fit that many targets into the area of the effect so that number is pretty useless. FSC, SC, and LR are all PbAoEs with 10' and 20' radii respectively. FSC can easily target all 10 targets for its target cap and SC and LR can easily target all 16 of their targets. Don't attempt to compare a power that has a tiny bit of AoE capability as a tangential asset with powers that are legitimately AoE powers. You're comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to make the question of balance irrelevant. Welcome to the required Straw Man facepalm. If you're going to do it the same way next time, at least try to make it a bit harder to tell along with actually getting the numbers right. Maybe use Shadow Maul instead of Golden Dragonfly, because at least Shadow Maul is intended to hit multiple targets. |
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Nobody is stopping you from being ignorant if you wish to be. Simply go play the game if that's what you enjoy, and leave the balancing act up to those that enjoy doing that.
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Originally Posted by BloodFairy
suspicious... and what's with the facepalm fetish? I wish I could travel back in time, change Statesman's mind, he stays, numbers and make-believe numbers people make up, never are known and we play a game, instead of a massively multiplayer online math game.
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Except if that is the case then every other Blaster powerset is overpowered, since they do higher damage before Defiance is taken into account. I really doubt all other Blasters are overpowered, simply because if they were any weaker then they'd be worthless... Scrappers already do almost as much damage far more safely so any significant drop in Blaster damage would render them obsolete.|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
The one thing that I consistently see MISSING from these arguments is is this- DP is the first set designed FROM THE GROUND UP with Defiance 2.0 in play. The proliferated sets were tweaked yes, but this is the one that was designed with the Devs thinking ok.. as they blast they are getting a stacking damage buff every x seconds... OF COURSE THE BASE DAMAGE WILL BE LOWER. It may suck.. but thats the thinking from a balance standpoint.
(edited cause I hit post too fast) |
I believe Pistols was designed to have slightly weaker powers to balance out the swappable ammo. The problem is that the swappable ammo is not really an advantage... Blaster sets with single fixed special effects and damage types generally outperform DP even when the DP user selects the optimum damage type for that enemy. The set isn't horribly, but it is a few percentage points behind the curve and performance oriented players notice that quickly.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
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Took AR and War Mace almost five years to get attention, took Ice Melee and Elec Armor almost four years, and took Energy Aura three years. I'm still waiting for a buff to EM for the nerfs that set dealt with, and a buff to Storm to compensate for the pet recharge nerf which makes Lightning Storm into a sad little power.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Try 3 years.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I'm not remotely performance oriented and play weaker sets all the time, but I even noticed it right away, and I can't for the life of me understand why DP performs so much worse than AR or Arch. I have both an AR and Arch blaster and they can clear through whole mobs easily. My DP is damn near dead if I take on more than 3 mobs at a time.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
The set isn't horribly, but it is a few percentage points behind the curve and performance oriented players notice that quickly.
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Keep in mind that AR and Archery are both better at AoE than DP... your DP Blaster can probably handle three +3 mobs faster than your AR (not counting differences in secondaries) but the AR will handle six +0s a lot faster than the DP.
Dual Pistols is almost identical to Energy Blast (considered by most a middle of the road primary in both AoE and ST damage) in AoE performance, the only difference being the nuke. Archery has a crashless nuke that can be used safely every 1-2 spawns instead of only every 2-4 and at significant risk. It also has a slightly better cone. AR has a safe, fast recharging crashless nuke and a huge amount of additional AoE damage. On the other hand, Dual Pistols has slightly better single target performance than Archery or AR... but only slightly better and at the cost of significantly worse AoEs.
That may be the real problem with DP... it is only middle of the road in AoE capability so people compare it to the more single target sets, but those tend to have more mitigation than DP does (tons of KB in Energy, slows and holds in Ice, that huge cone Sleep in Sonic) so it seems too squishy for a single target set and too weak damagewise (especially AoE) for the "burn them down first" approach.
(Yes I did leave out Electric Blast... I'm only comparing DP to viable primaries. 
)
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
So far the set is a big disappointment for me as a Blaster.
The animations are great, but on the other hand... if feels very sluggish, and kinda weak. It gives me the feeling I'm playing a corruptor without a secondary. I spent a part of the week end in teams where half the players were Dual Pistols Blasters, and I couldnt help to start thinking how faster our teams would have been if we'd been Fire Blasters instead.
ES was definitely the killing blow for me on the set, I've put my blaster on the shelve and started another scrapper for the end of the double xp week end instead.
I really hope the set gets buffed fast. Because it was the reason behind my preorder and reactivation.
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I like the look of ES as to me, it suits the name. You casually aim and fire. It's nothing cowboy handbags at dawn style in terms of speed which you couldn't regard as an executioner taking a shot....but it is stupid. |
Originally Posted by Ehina
ES was definitely the killing blow for me on the set, I've put my blaster on the shelve and started another scrapper for the end of the double xp week end instead.
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As a gunshot, firing only 12 metres away and incapable of one shotting some npc makes it pathetic.
I didn't roll one in the end.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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But it has 1 more aoe than Archery, it should be better at aoe than Archery considering you're required to be in melee range for the mini-nuke, and close range for one of the cones. I can't even get the 2nd cone to work because it's so freaking narrow.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
Keep in mind that AR and Archery are both better at AoE than DP... your DP Blaster can probably handle three +3 mobs faster than your AR (not counting differences in secondaries) but the AR will handle six +0s a lot faster than the DP.
Dual Pistols is almost identical to Energy Blast (considered by most a middle of the road primary in both AoE and ST damage) in AoE performance, the only difference being the nuke. Archery has a crashless nuke that can be used safely every 1-2 spawns instead of only every 2-4 and at significant risk. It also has a slightly better cone. AR has a safe, fast recharging crashless nuke and a huge amount of additional AoE damage. On the other hand, Dual Pistols has slightly better single target performance than Archery or AR... but only slightly better and at the cost of significantly worse AoEs. That may be the real problem with DP... it is only middle of the road in AoE capability so people compare it to the more single target sets, but those tend to have more mitigation than DP does (tons of KB in Energy, slows and holds in Ice, that huge cone Sleep in Sonic) so it seems too squishy for a single target set and too weak damagewise (especially AoE) for the "burn them down first" approach. (Yes I did leave out Electric Blast... I'm only comparing DP to viable primaries. ) |
I don't see how it's a single target set when it has 4 aoes and they cost more end to use because they're aoes. Energy has just as many aoes as Archery, they just happen to be weak, and scatter very easily which is counter productive.
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That is the worst reasoning ever. Look at the numbers/facts. First off, only 30% of the damage is fire/cold/toxic. So when comparing to say archery, 70%, exactly the same for the most part. Now 30% of that is the special damage type. Even if you match it perfectly so none of its resisted, you're looking at 30% full damage, versus the 30% that is resisted. Even if that's 50% resistance the enemy has (usually lower) that's 15% less damage, so we're looking at dealing 15% less damage, where the other sets, even if they are fully lethal, are balanced around this fact and have higher DPA/DPS etc to compensate for this. so they are already dealing the damage damage, where you have to take a full power, to swap ammo types and match up the effect to deal that same damage.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In the end I want the same thing you do: a set that functions well. Not interested in ripping people apart.
The damage on Hail of Bullets is probably too low. I have "looked at the numbers," seen that 2 is more minutes than 1, and concluded that the power does less damage than some others. The probable reason is that the developers feel the ability to change damage types gives Dual Pistols some utility. |
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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Piercing Rounds really shouldn't be considered an AoE. It's best to consider it a single target attack with the ability to hit another target on occasion, just like Golden Dragonfly and Headsplitter for Scrappers. It's substantially easier than it used to be to catch additional targets in there, but the max targets is 3, so it's not like you can really capitalize on it all that much.
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Originally Posted by Smoking Baby
But it has 1 more aoe than Archery, it should be better at aoe than Archery considering you're required to be in melee range for the mini-nuke, and close range for one of the cones. I can't even get the 2nd cone to work because it's so freaking narrow.
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3 is still a cone attack giving it a 4th aoe. Regardless even at 3 it has the same amount of aoes as Archery so if Archery can be considered an aoe set then DP should be too.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Piercing Rounds really shouldn't be considered an AoE. It's best to consider it a single target attack with the ability to hit another target on occasion, just like Golden Dragonfly and Headsplitter for Scrappers. It's substantially easier than it used to be to catch additional targets in there, but the max targets is 3, so it's not like you can really capitalize on it all that much.
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Even ignoring all that the argument that DP is a single target set doesn't diminish the fact that DP does crappy damage. Long animation times, you have to be in melee for your mini-nuke, close range for 2 attacks, and after all that you don't kill anywhere near as fast as two lethal sets.
It just doesn't make sense.
And that's ignoring the fact that DP has 3 solid aoes and one technical one.
Unless they wanna give us psi-bullets to "make up" for the terrible damage they need to boost the recharge of the mini-nuke and give DP a damage boost. At the very least firing pink bullets would make me feel less bad about being a gimp as my gimpiness would be fully advertised by usage of pink bullets.
soon the mini-maxxers will abandon the set and move on. i want the concept not the numbers. less DPs the better.
here's to it remaining "sub-par" indefinately :P
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That is a pretty poor outlook. Why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?
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Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
soon the mini-maxxers will abandon the set and move on. i want the concept not the numbers. less DPs the better.
here's to it remaining "sub-par" indefinately :P |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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So the numbers change the concept how?! Shooting faster makes you lessof a dual pistol user? Bullets doing significant damage moves away from the concept how?|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
soon the mini-maxxers will abandon the set and move on. i want the concept not the numbers. less DPs the better.
here's to it remaining "sub-par" indefinately :P |
I'm not a min-maxer, but a set can be improved and the concept remain the same. Especially when people aren't changing anything but cone width and/or slightly speeding up animations.
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I consider Piercing Rounds a single target attack that occasionally hits an extra enemy, not a real AoE. That's also how I look at the "line" style melee cones like Headsplitter. From a practical standpoint DP has three AoEs: a standard cone, a standard targeted AoE, and a PBAoE mini-nuke. The DP "nuke" can be used three times as often as Nova, but Nova actually kills pretty much all non-bosses it hits... so I actually consider DP and Energy similar in terms of AoE power.|
Originally Posted by Smoking Baby
I don't see how it's a single target set when it has 4 aoes and they cost more end to use because they're aoes. Energy has just as many aoes as Archery, they just happen to be weak, and scatter very easily which is counter productive.
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| 3 is still a cone attack giving it a 4th aoe. Regardless even at 3 it has the same amount of aoes as Archery so if Archery can be considered an aoe set then DP should be too. |
Hail of Bullets cannot be used every spawn, is too dangerous to open up with in many situations, and Hail will not reliably clear the minions from a spawn. That makes it a situational power rather than a core part of the attack chain, leaving only the standard two AoEs that almost all Blaster sets get. In other words, DP is only average in usable, every-spawn AoE power... much like Energy.
(Note that I tend to rate sets on what they can do consistently. Nukes (other than mini-nukes that can be used every fight), tier 9 "god mode" powers, and long recharge short term buffs are cool toys but do not alter basic spawn to spawn performance, so I don't really give them much consideration when looking at a set's overall performance.)
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
All the disappointment and QQ'ing aside, the one thing I do like about DP is the awesome echo effect you get off nearby walls. It's this kind of attention to detail that keeps me playing this game.
EDIT - I'm actually fine with lower damage overall, but I'd really like to see the mitigation in swap ammo increased. With so many aoes and also with the DoT in fire ammo I'm finding that I can pull aggro off my wife's Black Dwarf right through her taunt. Granted, as blasters go I make a good doormat, but I am drawing a serious amount of attention to myself compared to my other blasters, and I don't think it's the animations. Switching from fire to cryo or chemical only helps in that the DoT from the fire ammo doesn't aggro quite as much. I'm not actually seeing the mitigaton of the alternate ammo types so much as I'm seeing the absence of the extra damage from fire.
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