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Do not go off of what Mid's numbers are because they are not even close to being correct for Hail of Bullets.
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Originally Posted by Quixotik
eh, I like Dual Pistols. According to Mid's, base damage for HoB is around 40% higher than FA or RoA (120 vs 90), but about 35% of the damage from Inferno. Seems like some thought went into it. I would like a shorter timer, but then again, I'll take the higher recharge time for the higher base damage. If Mid's is wrong, HoB should be buffed in damage to be higher than RoA and FA for balance.
The only thing I could suggest is that the KB chance should be higher on a few higher damage attacks, like Executioner's Shot and Piercing Rounds so you could go to those when you need a knockdown/back. The only DP power I will usually skip is Suppressive Fire, which by itself is not worth a power pick. I would have given DP an AoE sleep like Siren's Song instead of the same old 'Beanbag-by-another-Name' power. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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HoB uses basically the same system as the extra DoTs in Fire except that the ticks are not set to stop checking after one misses. That means that even though it is 24 possible ticks of damage, there is only one actual attack roll and one possible proc chance... the 50% checks for each tick are just percentage rolls that cannot trigger a proc, not 24 separate attacks.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Just a quick question that maybe someone knows...
If I put a dmg proc IO in Hail of Bullets, does that proc have a chance to go off every 'tick'? I know in a normal dmg click power it just has 1 chance for the 16 (however many are near you) targets...but I was curious since HoB isn't like other click nukes since it has 12 (? not sure how many) separate ticks of damage. |
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| Do not go off of what Mid's numbers are because they are not even close to being correct for Hail of Bullets. |
Full Auto: 178
Rain of Arrows: 225
Hail of Bullets: 166
If using incendiary ammo, HoB also has five possible ticks of fire DoT, which pushes it up to around 200 damage or a bit higher. Unlike the main damage ticks, this bonus DoT does end as soon as one tick misses so I can't easily calculate the exact average, but it's somewhere in the 200-210 range. The important thing is that unlike the other two powers, Hail of Bullets can theoretically do up to twice that much damage... or no damage at all. In practice you will rarely get damage outside of the 110 - 220 range (plus another 30-40 or so from the fire DoT if using incendiary). That means that sometimes it will be a little better than Rain of Arrows, but other times it will be significantly worse than Full Auto. That's bad, because that means you can't count on it to reliably kill the pack of minions you had to go stand next to to use it...
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Quote:
Ah okay, that's what I was expecting but wanted to make sure of! thanks |
Originally Posted by StrykerX
HoB uses basically the same system as the extra DoTs in Fire except that the ticks are not set to stop checking after one misses. That means that even though it is 24 possible ticks of damage, there is only one actual attack roll and one possible proc chance... the 50% checks for each tick are just percentage rolls that cannot trigger a proc, not 24 separate attacks.
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I am still partial to having 5 of the 12 ticks (for both damage types) have a 100% chance to hit while leaving the other 7 at 50%.
Currently Hail deals damage like this (the second lines damage type changes per toggle):
50.0% chance: 12 ticks of 0.3108 Dmg(Le) for 3.5s to Foe
50.0% chance: 12 ticks of 0.1332 Dmg(Le) for 3.5s to Foe
Change it so that it deals damage like this:
5 ticks of 0.3108 Dmg(Le) for 1.5s to Foe
50.0% chance: 7 ticks of 0.3108 Dmg(Le) for 3.5s to Foe
5 ticks of 0.1332 Dmg(Le) for 1.5s to Foe
50.0% chance: 7 ticks of 0.1332 Dmg(Le) for 3.5s to Foe
And reduce the recharge to 90 seconds.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
My thoughts are that HoB needs to have its average damage increased to equal to or above RoA, the damage needs to be more consistent, the recharge needs to be reduced to either 90 second or 60 seconds, and if the recharge is at 90, it'd be nice if there was a small unenhanceable global defense buff for the duration of the power, but that's probably asking too much. The damage needs to justify the risk involved with using the power.
Either making the shots more likely to fire, making a fraction of the shots assured to fire, or increasing the damage of each shot will do.
Executioner's Shot needs to have its animation dropped by half a second to bring it in line with other, similar powers, or it needs to have its damage increased to make up for the longer than average animation.
Also, increasing the duration, but not the strength of the debuffs for the toxic and cryo rounds would be nice, but isn't necessary. It would make the two rounds more useful (especially to Blasters), while making strategic use of Swap Ammo more beneficial than is is right now. Bringing the duration of the hold/stun of Suppressive Fire to the same level as similar powers would be nice as well.
I'd also like a pony and an I Win Button. :3
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
My DP is overpowered.
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I agree with most of what you said but just wanted to make a note about comparing damage between Full Auto and Hail of Bullets. Full Auto has a target cap of 10, versus Hail of Bullets' target cap of 16, so on a per-use average against large groups Hail of Bullets will out damage Full Auto by a significant amount (assuming the numbers above are correct). Full Auto will, of course, recharge faster.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Full Auto: 178
Rain of Arrows: 225 Hail of Bullets: 166 |
I consider the ability to use Full Auto from range makes up for the lower target cap... at times you can't safely use Hail of Bullets even with a good tank since AoE-heavy groups will probably kill you with splash damage, and solo / small (tankless) group it is far easier to use a long range cone than a PBAoE. You can certainly use HoB without dying, but I've noticed that DP Blasters I've teamed with that use HoB seem to faceplant considerably more often than other Blasters do.
Still, even if you assume using both as often as possible the shorter recharge means that Full Auto is hitting 20 targets for every 16 hit by HoB, plus AR has better AoE capabilities to stack on top of Full Auto. About the only thing HoB has going for it is the knockdown, but even using Standard ammo (and therefore doing even less damage than Full Auto) the mid-attack knockdown isn't very reliable. The knockdown at the end is reliable, but that's a little late since everything has already had a chance to attack you.
I don't consider HoB a bad power, I just don't think it's better than Full Auto. Which means it should recharge as fast as Full Auto.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
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If Mids' is to be believed, HoB also has a (very slightly) longer animation and a higher endurance cost.
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
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Yes, I can see Mid's is incorrect atm. My DP/MM is instantly dead after using HoB. Much too weak. Blaster PBAoE nukes must either destroy or nullify minions and Lts or they are just XP Debt. 90% of the times I use HoB as a nuke my toon arrives at the hospital within 20 seconds. Now if it actually did do 40-50% more damage than RoA or Full Auto, then it would work as a PBAoE Nuke. If damage isn't seriously buffed, HoB needs to be changed to a fast recharge stand-off AoE.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Do not go off of what Mid's numbers are because they are not even close to being correct for Hail of Bullets.
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Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
As long its nice and better to use then Blizzard, i'm happy with it
(blizzard is my standard of how a T9 nuke should NOT be, specialy in the old days it was even a far worse power, non-dmg buffable)
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
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Quote:
Can you unpack this sentiment, please? There's a thread on the Archetypes board which is full of people frothing and lathering about how Blizzard is basically a chocolate cake with a free unicorn.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
As long its nice and better to use then Blizzard, i'm happy with it
(blizzard is my standard of how a T9 nuke should NOT be, specialy in the old days it was even a far worse power, non-dmg buffable) |
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You mean its not?
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Can you unpack this sentiment, please? There's a thread on the Archetypes board which is full of people frothing and lathering about how Blizzard is basically a chocolate cake with a free unicorn.
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Quote:
Even if the entire community liked Blizzard, it wont change my standard.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Can you unpack this sentiment, please? There's a thread on the Archetypes board which is full of people frothing and lathering about how Blizzard is basically a chocolate cake with a free unicorn.
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I've partied with a bit too many knockback happy people and pets, i now dont even have that power on my powerbars anymore. It still is 1 of the perfect examples of what the CoH engine actualy lacks, or rather, how 'cheap' such targeted AoE's are implemented.
Was only refering to the damage part, related to the pet system, as in the old days, player's damage buffs couldnt be transfered to the 'pet'.
The effect of the power itself ingame i cant do more then happy agree, it is one of the most 'easiest' nukes around. But for implementation into the game, and more, how long it took them to finaly get it right, no thanks, no more Blizzard alike nukes for me.
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Okay, so you're saying that Blizzard is a terrible, terrible power because of something that you acknowledge isn't true any more?
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No, i say a power should never be like something, that the engine basicly cant handle ('pet' powers - TA finaly working? there's my point).
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Okay, so you're saying that Blizzard is a terrible, terrible power because of something that you acknowledge isn't true any more?
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50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
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Quote:
But it can, now. It couldn't, then. Are we to avoid implementing things that we couldn't have implemented in the past? Or is it that the first impression of a power is such that you should never be willing to accept powers changing?
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
No, i say a power should never be like something, that the engine basicly cant handle ('pet' powers - TA finaly working? there's my point).
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Quote:
And how long did it take? How long TA is already borked (aka, the engine still cant)? How long did it take for MM pets finaly stopped from going crazy on every 'pet' power a mob casted?|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
But it can, now. It couldn't, then. Are we to avoid implementing things that we couldn't have implemented in the past? Or is it that the first impression of a power is such that you should never be willing to accept powers changing?
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'pet' powers is something creatively done, what the engine cant. But each power they add, comes with a package full of bugs and issues.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
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Quote:
I'm not sure I understand your point... Blizzard now works fine, so the only reason not to take it now would be if you just don't like nukes with endurance crashes or you just don't like area targeted DoTs like "rain" powers. Both are legitimate reasons to skip Blizzard, but they have more to do with your play style than any problem with the power itself... for instance, if you always run on fast moving teams you'll never have time for it to do it's full damage, but if you like to duo with a Controller who uses an AoE immobilize Blizzard will be awesome.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
And how long did it take? How long TA is already borked (aka, the engine still cant)? How long did it take for MM pets finaly stopped from going crazy on every 'pet' power a mob casted?
'pet' powers is something creatively done, what the engine cant. But each power they add, comes with a package full of bugs and issues. |
As far as Dual Pistols goes, nothing in the set is "broken" in the sense that old Blizzard, Oil Slick Arrow, and so forth were. Every power works as intended and properly accepts buffs, etc... We can argue that the basic intent of some of them is flawed and needs tweaking (Hail of Bullets) but they do all work exactly as intended.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
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I never said it should be avoided, or its very lousy, i only state:
blizzard is my standard of how a T9 nuke should NOT be
Thats it. I rather see a Nuke working from the start and only needs some balance issues (damage, risk vs reward etc), then powers that need months before they finaly working as they should be.
My initial post was only about saying any nuke will be ok, as long it aint in the style of blizzard (like a bullet rain or something - pet based, not like RoA).
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Powers working right from the start is of course good, but I'd rather the devs experiment with cool new effects than never risk releasing anything that isn't 100% solid. After all, Blizzard wasn't really that bad even in the old days... it didn't take buffs but it still did a lot of damage and was the only nuke that could be fired around corners at range. And if they hadn't released Blizzard and then figured out how to fix it, we might not have Rain of Arrows now... and RoA is the best crashless nuke in the game.
Really, there have been almost no powers that went live truly broken, and the couple that did were just plain bugged and not caught in beta (original Smoke Grenade for instance). Original Blizzard was a bit sub-par but still useful, Oil Slick Arrow was still worth taking for the knockdown even when it wouldn't light reliably, and so on. The various pet AI problems are annoying but Mastermind pets in general have the best pet AI I've ever seen in a MMO... no MMO ever seems to have pet AI that is anywhere near as good as single player games, presumably due to limits in how much CPU time they can take up.
The only powers I've ever considered "worthless" were due to balance issues rather than bugs. Things like Time Bomb or Poison Trap (from /Poison, not /Traps) work exactly as intended and always did... they just suck. 
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
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The MM version of Time Bomb aint that bad (detonate), specialy for Necro its a free pet.
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No, Detonate is a fairly cool power. Time Bomb, on the other hand, is one of the few powers I can never see myself taking except as a set mule or on a second build just to goof around with.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
I was on a team with three level 50 DP blasters and they couldnt kill a thing.. I was amazing with all the bullets flying around nothing was really dying...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
eh, I like Dual Pistols. According to Mid's, base damage for HoB is around 40% higher than FA or RoA (120 vs 90), but about 35% of the damage from Inferno. Seems like some thought went into it. I would like a shorter timer, but then again, I'll take the higher recharge time for the higher base damage. If Mid's is wrong, HoB should be buffed in damage to be higher than RoA and FA for balance.
The only thing I could suggest is that the KB chance should be higher on a few higher damage attacks, like Executioner's Shot and Piercing Rounds so you could go to those when you need a knockdown/back.
The only DP power I will usually skip is Suppressive Fire, which by itself is not worth a power pick. I would have given DP an AoE sleep like Siren's Song instead of the same old 'Beanbag-by-another-Name' power.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator