Dual Pistols

Why does this even need to be said. Hail of Bullets does less damage than Full Auto and Rain of Arrows, maybe the same with Incindiary bullets on, why on earth does it need to be said that it should have the same 1 minute recharge timer. 2 minutes? Come on devs you're being seriously disappointing in your logic right now especially on a set that does not get aim.

Yeah, why does it need to be said?

Personally I'd really like to see an explanation of why it has a two minute recharge, considering it does at best roughly equal damage to Rain of Arrows. Plus it's more dangerous to use, being a pbaoe rather than ranged so you have to run into a mob and get pounded on to use it.

I think the issue is mosre that RoA and FA are overpowered (especially in these days of IOs) and Hail of Bullets is more representative of where they should be.

so you're saying let it just be sucking as it is? =/

Perhaps I'm not reading this right. A level Tier 4 power rivals the DPA of a Tier 8, but the DPS is cut in half cause of recharge?

Where's the problem exactly?

And of course there's no Aim. Blast sets with 4 crashless AoEs don't have Aim.

I think people sometimes forget that the devs are balancing sets, not just individual powers. Most cone attacks do ~2x the targeted AoE attacks in their set, with a much larger potential coverage area... yet Full Auto only does 3/4ths what Rain of Arrows does. That's on top of Archery getting Aim. Why's that you say? Because Assault Rifle has the most AoE out of the box.

All that said, I'd be much more surprised if Rain of Bullets had a 60 second recharge, honestly.

Hail of Bullets, not Bullet Rain. Hail of Bullets is the tier 9 power. It's on a two minute recharge, does less damage on average than Rain of Arrows even with incendiary ammo, is inconsistent in its damage, has a four second animation, and is a PBAOE attack that will make you faceplant faster than Lady Jane in a Rikti Raid. In a set that doesn't have Aim, and has lackluster damage.

There really isn't any reason for it to be like that.

yeah.....but doesn't it look cool? :-)

I was quite surprised that Hail has 2 minutes recharge. Even more so that it seems to have been the one power that didnt get the love it deserved from the Beta testing. The rest of the set wound out nearly spot on, IMO. But Hail is, while still gorgeous, lacking something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This was brought up a lot on beta. Hail of Bullets originally had a six minute recharge like true nukes, but it was later cut to two minutes. I can only assume that the longer recharge is due to the secondary effects (admittedly the knockdown with standard ammo is quite good) and the maximum damage being significantly higher than Full Auto. However, since the odds of getting even 3/4 of max damage are 1 in about 4000 and the damage with non-incendiary ammo (the kinds that get secondary effects) is quite low I can't see the problem with giving it the same 60 second recharge as other crashless nukes.

As far as the set as a whole being balanced rather than individual powers, Assault Rifle has more AoE damage and a more powerful crashless nuke, yet its nuke is only a 60 second recharge. Archery has the same effective number of AoEs (I do not count Piercing Round as a true AoE any more than I count Headsplitter as one) yet has a far superior mini-nuke. About the only thing Dual Pistols has going for it that other sets lack is an additional long range, high damage (mostly) single target attack that isn't a snipe. I (and many others) really don't see that as worth doubling the recharge on Hail of Bullets, especially since Executioner's Shot has such pathetic DPA that nobody's going to use it except for the animation...

Really, Dual Pistols is very similar to Archery when it comes to useful power picks. Both have:

- Standard tier one and two shots
- A full 80 foot range "tier 3" (Blazing Arrow hits a bit harder, Piercing Round can occasionally hit 2-3 targets)
- A ranged stun (that can be switched to a hold in DP's case, but same idea)
- A standard ranged cone AoE
- A standard targeted AoE
- a crashless nuke

Archery gets Aim while DP gets Swap Ammo, and Archery gets a snipe that most people skip while DP gets a short range tier 3 blast with a massive animation time and pathetic DPA that most people skip. So comparing the powers that are actually good, we see that Archery has Aim and a slightly stronger tier 3 blast while Dual Pistols has selectable ammo and a chance to hit multiple targets with its tier 3 blast. Overall that seems very closely balanced to me, so I can certainly see comparing Hail of Bullets directly to Rain of Arrows. And in that comparison, Hail of Bullets falls flat on its face.

So unless Archery is just overpowered (which I certainly don't believe), why should Dual Pistols effectively be a weaker clone of it? The swappable ammo is a neat gimmick but ultimately it doesn't actually do much since only 30% of the damage changes and the secondary effects are significantly weaker than other blast sets... it certainly doesn't justify a tier 9 that's so much worse than any other crashless nuke. The lack of Aim alone is enough to balance out the minor (usually less than 10%) damage boost you can get by swapping to an ammo type the target is weaker to, and the weaker secondary effect strength balances out being able to select which effect to use. So what is the double recharge on Hail of Bullets balancing out? The one in a thousand (literally) chance to do more damage than the other crashless nukes?

Don't get me wrong, Dual Pistols is a very pretty set. But from a numbers standpoint, it's not very good, especially Hail of Bullets and Executioner's Shot.

they should have given swap ammo as an inherent ability of the guns, not a power you pick. In the place of swap ammo, there should have been a power called AIM. It's weird swap ammo is a power you choose. it's like making domination a power you have to actually pick. It's ridiculous.

"Ah, Dual pistols how do I dislike thee, let me count the ways."

Low DPA. (Due to long animations)
Low AoE damage output.
Low mitigation due to the ability to switch secondary effects (not worth the trade off IMHO)
Cone width and length on Empty Clips does not match the animation.
Animation of Bullet Rain requires far too much suspension of belief.
Hail of Bullets does not recharge fast enough, does not do enough damage based on recharge time, is a PBAoE rather than a ranged attack so it is much less safe to use, doesn't do enough damage to finish the spawn but does do enough damage to pull aggro off the melee toons and on to you (at least partly because it is a PBAoE).
Gun Fu animations with no "more sedate" alternates available.

IMO the worst of all the blast sets currently available taking that honor away from Elec/.

The level 50 DP/energy I have on test from Beta is likely the only one I'll ever have and I am primarily a Blaster, Controller, Defender, Dominator, Corruptor player.

The ability to adapt your power set to the current situation on hand is the reason for the lower numbers.

I championed this change in the beta forums, and beat it and beat it and pretty much killed the subject but none of the developers wanted to listen.

Also whoever said Archery is over powered in on something lol. Rain of Arrows is pretty much what defines the set. Without it, its a decent set.

RoA overpowered in the day of "IO's"? Well, considering that ALOT of people wanna play the "COH is fine with SO's" card, you can't really call a power "overpowered in the day of IO's".

I don't think calling a power overpowered by using IO's is fair. EVERY toon can become overpowered with IO's. I bet you i can even make a Mind troller capable of farming. Wanna try that bet?

Every crashless nuke should have the same damage/timer just as the nukes all act the same way considering they all get the same 2ndaries.

On a side note, i'll take the DP name winner with my Goldy Glocks. tyvm.

I was wondering how the damage was determined, Umbral. So... that means there's around a six in one hundred million chance of doing double damage if I'm calculating that right...

That's... Incredibly underwhelming.

Anyone that honestly thinks FA and RoA are overpowered has not played the set. After nearly 6 years, the devs actually have some merit with damage to recharge ratios that pretty much even out with all the sets. All statistics aside, there will always be a subjective interpretation to a set being "underpowered" by crying foul on another set or sets that have been nerfed and buffed more times than months played by most people.

Pistols damage and recharge are low and long, an will likely be addressed in due time when giving solid feedback.

Recharge: most times should be lower and possibly a damage increase.

Animation time: this is what really makes me not like DP so far. I was never a fan of Woo Foo gunkata crap, but there were a bunch of people that always drooled over it. DP will probably get its activation times decrease just as AR did.

Range: I do think the ranges should be in line with Archery. If anything, DP should be a hybrid of AR and Archery.

I do absolutely believe DP is weaker than all other primaries since I know the set needs IO Set bonuses to gain performance versus SO and IO builds. DP is playable given survivability powers like tough and EPP/PPP resistance/defense oriented tweaks in a build.

I reckon that the devs will eventually take heed to the player base majority and/or the well presented cases of the issues in the set. I also think that getting dual pistols sets much sooner than expected by some is a gift that should not be written off from the start. Every set in this game has undergone changes (some for better and some for worse...cough..Regen..cough cough).

Dual pistols has a great unrealized potential as it stands. But this is also the first live iteration of the set, so we have to expect tweaks to it eventually.

I think this inconsistency has been reported many and many times during the DP beta. And I'm pretty sure the devs know about that, but still havent decided to change it yet for a reason I'm not sure about.

Sometime I think they are afraid of giving too much AoE power to a single powerset, because it makes solo farming much easier. At the same time they recently gave Shield Charge to Shields, which is a tremendous farming power.

At this stage, I just wish they still have a little buff for HoB in their sleeve incoming soon. Because it clearly deserves it.