Dual Pistols


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
No, Detonate is a fairly cool power. Time Bomb, on the other hand, is one of the few powers I can never see myself taking except as a set mule or on a second build just to goof around with.
Agreed, my first DP was a /Dev, first getting the Time Bomb, quite useless.. then the 'what is this? 6 sec cast??' gun drone. Good side was having 2 extra powerslots for something else


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Posted

Gun Drone is actually useful now that it follows you (mainly for soloing). Back when it was a stationary turret it was marginally useful for AVs and that's about it, but at least now it does add some damage. A shorter activation time and a bit of a movement speed increase would be nice, but at least it lasts a decent length of time.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windenergy21 View Post
Why does this even need to be said. Hail of Bullets does less damage than Full Auto and Rain of Arrows, maybe the same with Incindiary bullets on, why on earth does it need to be said that it should have the same 1 minute recharge timer. 2 minutes? Come on devs you're being seriously disappointing in your logic right now especially on a set that does not get aim.
No. Roleplayers say the set is fine and I believe them.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
I was on a team with three level 50 DP blasters and they couldnt kill a thing.. I was amazing with all the bullets flying around nothing was really dying...
Bad players kill slowly with Fire Blast. Bad players do not speak to the set as a whole.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Bad players kill slowly with Fire Blast. Bad players do not speak to the set as a whole.
QFT. Despite some tweaks needing to be made (lower recharge on HoB mostly), DP/ does not perform nearly as horribly as the hyperbole seems to make it sound. I am reliably killing +1 and +2 minions with build up, BU+PSW+HoB takes care of minions and most of the LTs HP or all of it. So far I've built this blaster like I do all the rest and it is not performing so horribly worse then any other blaster I've played, in fact my DP/MM is performing on par with everything I've played to this point, (Fire/MM, Arch/MM, Fire/EM, Nrg/Nrg, Nrg/Elm, Ice/Elm, Ice/MM), and specifically the Fire/MM, Arch/MM and Ice/MM.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
Gun Drone is actually useful now that it follows you (mainly for soloing). Back when it was a stationary turret it was marginally useful for AVs and that's about it, but at least now it does add some damage. A shorter activation time and a bit of a movement speed increase would be nice, but at least it lasts a decent length of time.
Bonus, it gives you a fairly significant Defuriance bonus.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
I championed this change in the beta forums, and beat it and beat it and pretty much killed the subject but none of the developers wanted to listen.

Also whoever said Archery is over powered in on something lol. Rain of Arrows is pretty much what defines the set. Without it, its a decent set.
Not to mention... Uhm, end game a LOT of things heavily resist lethal damage. Fighting something with 60% lethal resistance or more? Rain of Arrows is less effective. Fighting the same enemy with Dual Pistols? Just swap ammo types to something that works better then 'nuke'. You end up with about the same damage I bet.


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Posted

Reading through this long winded argument still. Just thought I'd log into the game and pull up some numbers though. First, I will give unenhanced values. Then enhanced values. Then likely damage based on those for the a high lethal resistance foe. I'm only comparing Full Auto, Rain of Arrows, and Hail of Bullets because that's what people here keep comparing. I'm pulling the unenhanced values directly from the game mind you, so it is accurate.

Keep in mind people keep saying Lethal damage sets are subpar because so many things heavily resist it. And they do, right? Let us assume an enemy has 50% resistance to lethal damage.

First of all, let's take a look at Full Auto.

Full Auto (unenhanced)
Recharge Time: 60 seconds
Average Damage: 178.55
Damage Per Activation: 44.64
Damage Per Cycle: 2.79

Full Auto (enhanced at +95% damage)
Average Damage: 348.1725
Damage Per Activation: 87.048
Damage Per Cycle: 5.4405

Full Auto (enhanced) vs 50% Lethal resistance: 174.08625 average per use

And I'll admit right now that 50% resistance might be a tad high. This is for illustrative purposes only.

Rain of Arrows (unenhanced)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Average Damage: 150.15
Damage Per Activation: 37.54
Damage Per Cycle: 2.35

Rain of Arrows: (enhanced at +95% damage)
Average Damage: 292.7925
Damage Per Activation: 73.203
Damage Per Cycle: 4.5825

Rain of Arrows (enhanced) vs 50% Lethal Resistance: 146.39625 on average

Ok, so let us look at Hail of Bullets now. I'll do two vs resistance numbers. One with standard rounds, one with one of the other rounds. I'm not gonna add in the bonus damage proc from fire rounds though. That's a tad unreliable from what I've seen.

Hail of Bullets
Recharge: 120 seconds
Average Damage: 166.66
Damage per Activation: 39.97
Damage per Cycle: 1.34

Hail of Bullets (enhanced to +95% damage)
Average Damage: 324.987
Damage per Cycle: 2.613 (ok, this looks low, but then it has twice the recharge too so it evens out)

Hail of Bullets (enhanced) vs 50% lethal resistance: 162.4935

But wait, what if you weren't using lethal damage ammo? It's accepted that 30% of the damage can be swapped for a different type. At level 50 this would be 97.4961 damage or so. And you do know which mobs heavily resist lethal damage right? So let's recalculate that.

After subtracting the 30% damage being switched from lethal type before resistance is applied, we learn that 211.24155 is the new average damage vs that highly resistant mob.
Damage Per Activation: 77.9415

Looks pretty balanced to me so far. Once I get the power in game I'll be able to tell better how effective it really is. But so far, it looks good on paper.

Also remember that Rain of Arrows is a 'rain' power. Thus if the enemy leaves the aoe after one tick, it only takes a third of the damage. Plus HoB has aditional secondary effects that can be useful too.


"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
With so many aoes and also with the DoT in fire ammo I'm finding that I can pull aggro off my wife's Black Dwarf right through her taunt.
That's nothing. An hour ago I pulled agro off a fire tank AND an ice tank, at the same time. After the fight they asked me what I did to cause that. Previously, I'd only known a TA/A defender to pull agro off an ice tank.


"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkada View Post
Lol'd hard at saying that less complaints = more changes. That's possibly the single most blatantly wrong thing I have ever heard from someone regarding this game.
It's more a case of the following two examples:

"Oh no, I hate this set. Change it now! Everyone agrees with me that it under preforms, so change it! Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a blind fanboi!"

Which gets read by developers who wonder what you see is wrong with it

or

"This set is under preforming. This is why I feel it is. This is how it could be changed to improve."

Which do YOU think gets a dev's attention faster? Well, according to CupaJo, the second one does. What do you think happens when you have a hypothetical 50 people saying "Well, the set is ok, but it could use a few tweeks" vs 10 people saying "Ok, the set needs some work, here are the areas which need work and why" vs 150 people going "anyone who disagrees is a fanboi cause I say the set sucks"? My guess is that the developers see that the majority who weighed in on the issue probably just didn't like it for some nebulous reason, many people like it as is, and a minority think it under preforms.

I think it ironic that when TA and Archery first came out everyone said archery sucks because "it's all lethal damage so does low damage". And now it's touted as one of the best blast sets, while a set which looks like it does comparable damage but can deal reliable non-lethal damage is inferior to it.

Admittedly my dual pistol blaster is only level 11 so far. I just got Going Rogue at 10:30am as of the day I post this. So far though it's damage is very respectable. I compared it's damage over the course of 50 levels to others touted as the 'best', and it competes very well I find. I'm enjoying the large amount of aoe and cone attacks so far. Enemies tend to melt before me, even faster if I'm teamed with a good tanker.

I do think a few attack animations so far are a bit long. Bullet Rain for example is the main one so far. Even so it does very good damage. And using elemental shot an enemy is weak to makes a noticeable difference. As do the various secondary effects.

My overall assessment of Dual Pistols so far? A solid 6/10. I'd rate it higher, but the long animations of a few attacks drag it down.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
I'm enjoying the large amount of aoe and cone attacks so far.
Eh? It's got Empty Clips (short cone), Bullet Rain (targetted AoE), and Hail of Bullets (PBAoE). Hardly a 'large amount of aoe and cone attacks'.

In that respect, it's the same as Archery: Fistful of Arrows (short cone), Explosive Arrow (targetted AoE), Rain of Arrows (location AoE).

Assault Rifle wins as far as the 3 mostly-Lethal sets go: Shotgun (short cone), M30 Grenade (targetted AoE), Flamethrower (short cone), Ignite (small location AoE), and Full Auto (long and narrow cone).


 

Posted

Speaking of AR, I take full responsibility for the major overhaul the set got several months ago. I admit to being excited and talking a lot in the Corruptor forum about how insane it was to have an AR/Kin with Web Envelope and fulcrum shifting Ignite doing over 500+ damage every 3 seconds. :P You can blame me for that. I'm not saying I disagree with the changes, but I kinda wish they widened the FA cone.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post

Rain of Arrows (unenhanced)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Average Damage: 150.15

Rain of Arrows: (enhanced at +95% damage)
Average Damage: 292.7925

Rain of Arrows (enhanced) vs 50% Lethal Resistance: 146.39625 on average
The "average damage" in-game numbers are actually wrong on several powers, including Rain of Arrows. The average seems to assume only two of the three ticks hitting, but in reality all three usually do unless you try to hit running targets (at least solo... in teams it does miss a lot more). The real RoA numbers should be:

Rain of Arrows (unenhanced)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Average Damage: 225.225

Rain of Arrows: (enhanced at +95% damage)
Average Damage: 439.18875

Rain of Arrows (enhanced) vs 50% Lethal Resistance: 219.594375 on average


That means Rain of Arrows still hits harder than Hail of Bullets even against robots and other 50% lethal resistant targets unless you use incendiary ammo, in which case the fire DoT will push HoB's average up to somewhere in the 245-250 range (it's hard to calculate exactly since the DoT stops on the first missed tick).

Of course the thing that I personally find more important is that RoA reliably kills non-resistant even con minions every time I use it, and kills +1s and +2s every time with Aim or Build Up (or moderately resistant +0s or +1s). It also does so without them ever getting to shoot back since I can use it at range or even from around corners (rain powers do not need line of sight). HoB kills even con non-resistant minions less than half the time and always gives them a chance to return fire (unless you get lucky and the first tick knocks them down), and you don't have Aim... though at least with the longer recharge you probably will always have Build Up ready.

I think the real imbalance is in the risk posed by using these powers:

Rain of Arrows = highest damage and lowest risk, but enemies can run away in mid-activation and avoid some or all damage (like when the tank pulls a group just after you start to fire )

Full Auto = middle damage, moderate risk (some enemies might shoot back but it does have a long range), guaranteed damage

Hail of Bullets = lowest damage, far higher risk, wildly variable damage

With FA or RoA (assuming the targets stay still) I know what I'm getting. I know what will be alive afterward (barring the occasional miss) and how damaged the survivors will be. With HoB I might take out +1 minions, or I might leave -1s alive. I just don't know, which means I can't rely on it... so I can only use it in situations where I'll stay alive even if nothing drops. That's kind of limiting for a PBAoE with a huge animation time.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
Reading through this long winded argument still. Just thought I'd log into the game and pull up some numbers though. First, I will give unenhanced values. Then enhanced values. Then likely damage based on those for the a high lethal resistance foe. I'm only comparing Full Auto, Rain of Arrows, and Hail of Bullets because that's what people here keep comparing.
Obviously you didn't read the entirety of this thread. Otherwise you would have seen this thread which quite obviously point out that, even using existing precedents for powers of a kind, HoB is drastically underpowered.

Quote:
I'm pulling the unenhanced values directly from the game mind you, so it is accurate.
Except that it's not. You're using the wrong value for Rain of Arrows. 3 ticks of 75.07 damage does not equal 150.15 damage. Simple math tells you that it's equal to 225.21 damage (rounding errors account for small indiscrepancies). Ask anyone that uses archery: you'll get 3 ticks of damage virtually every time.

Quote:
Keep in mind people keep saying Lethal damage sets are subpar because so many things heavily resist it. And they do, right? Let us assume an enemy has 50% resistance to lethal damage.
And this is where you fail. "Heavily resisted" in CoX refers, in a vast majority of situations, to roughly 25-30% resistance to a specific damage type is "heavy resistance", and, even then, only if you assume that the damage resistance isn't general resistance for the target. 50% resistance without similar levels of resistance to all damage types is virtually unheard of.

If you actually applied a realistic level of "heavy resistance", you'd see that the damage is actually still under par by a significant degree.

Quote:
Also remember that Rain of Arrows is a 'rain' power. Thus if the enemy leaves the aoe after one tick, it only takes a third of the damage.
What you don't seem to realize about Rain of Arrows is that the ticks of damage don't take as long to apply as a normal rain. There is less than a second of time in between the first and final tick of damage. The chances of someone leaving the area while the pseudo pet is down are almost entirely negligible. Of course, you're similarly ignoring the fact that, because it's a rain rather than a single application of a power, if another target leaves or a target dies, then it will hit another target if one is available. RoA and Blizzard are the only nukes that can actually hit damage more targets than the target cap because of this.

Quote:
Plus HoB has aditional secondary effects that can be useful too.
Yet the secondary effects alone don't make up for the fact that it takes twice as long to recharge, deals less damage than it should considering it's a melee PbAoE rather than a ranged AoE (of which there is strong precedent that it should deal more damage to account for the added level of danger), and doesn't have properly accounted for variable damage. The secondary effects provide some functionality, but they don't make up for all of the other problems with HoB.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Of course, you're similarly ignoring the fact that, because it's a rain rather than a single application of a power, if another target leaves or a target dies, then it will hit another target if one is available. RoA is the only nuke that can actually hit damage more targets than the target cap because of this.
Blizzard makes a sad face.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Blizzard makes a sad face.
Gah. >.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby View Post
Eh? It's got Empty Clips (short cone), Bullet Rain (targetted AoE), and Hail of Bullets (PBAoE). Hardly a 'large amount of aoe and cone attacks'.

In that respect, it's the same as Archery: Fistful of Arrows (short cone), Explosive Arrow (targetted AoE), Rain of Arrows (location AoE).

Assault Rifle wins as far as the 3 mostly-Lethal sets go: Shotgun (short cone), M30 Grenade (targetted AoE), Flamethrower (short cone), Ignite (small location AoE), and Full Auto (long and narrow cone).
By level 8 I had two cone/aoe attacks. Archery has to wait longer to get a second area attack. I should be getting Pen Shots soon too. And I don't know about you guys, but I am skilled at lining up narrow cones. Playing a dark/dark scrapper taught me how. Open up with Pen Shots, then unleash my other aoe and cone attacks. Already with just the first two area attacks I can nearly drop even con minions, and seriously hurt LT's. I'm thinking with pen shot I can drop the minions easily.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
I should be getting Pen Shots soon too. And I don't know about you guys, but I am skilled at lining up narrow cones.
If you can hit more than 3 targets with Piercing Rounds, I will give you 5 billion influence.

Piercing Rounds doesn't get to claim legitimate AoE status for the simple reason that it is target capped to be so limiting. Headsplitter and Golden Dragonfly are functionally ST attacks for the exact same reason.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Obviously you didn't read the entirety of this thread. Otherwise you would have seen this thread which quite obviously point out that, even using existing precedents for powers of a kind, HoB is drastically underpowered.
You obviously didn't read my post closely. I wrote the breakdown WHILE STILL READING THE TEN PAGES OF THREAD.

Quote:
Except that it's not. You're using the wrong value for Rain of Arrows. 3 ticks of 75.07 damage does not equal 150.15 damage. Simple math tells you that it's equal to 225.21 damage (rounding errors account for small indiscrepancies). Ask anyone that uses archery: you'll get 3 ticks of damage virtually every time.
So, your saying "You used the wrong value because you looked at the entry for AVERAGE DAMAGE instead of how much any given tick does? THe entry for 'average damage' is just that, how much damage the power will do... on average. This accounts for sometimes it only hitting with some ticks, sometimes hitting with all the damage ticks.

Quote:
And this is where you fail. "Heavily resisted" in CoX refers, in a vast majority of situations, to roughly 25-30% resistance to a specific damage type is "heavy resistance", and, even then, only if you assume that the damage resistance isn't general resistance for the target. 50% resistance without similar levels of resistance to all damage types is virtually unheard of.
From fighting warwolves, I'd say they have at least 40% resistance to smash/lethal. Other resistances seem rather low however. That's just one example. Some robots would appear to have high resistance to lethal/smashing (35% to 40% it seems), but low to non-existant resistance to energy and elemental damage.

Quote:
If you actually applied a realistic level of "heavy resistance", you'd see that the damage is actually still under par by a significant degree.
What you didn't seem to notice was me stating the value was purely for illustration. I make no claims to know the actual resistances of every enemy. I've noticed that some have high resistance to some damage types. I've noticed they tend to be weaker to other types. I noticed on my claw/sr scrapper that robots tend to take half as much damage as carnies do. I noticed that warwolves take half as much damage from my TA/A defender as Family or standard Council troops.

Quote:
What you don't seem to realize about Rain of Arrows is that the ticks of damage don't take as long to apply as a normal rain.
You know what? I haven't actually gotten to use rain of arrows yet. My TA/A defender is 35 or so. I don't have RoA yet. My A/Dev blaster is 29, almost 30. I have something like 40 different characters I play. Most are still in their 20's. I've fought Manticore on a mastermind though. I haven't really used too many 'rain' powers outside of Rain of Fire on my mastermind (oni casting it). And that has a lot more damage ticks then RoA does.

Come to think of it, I'm starting to think that Hail of Bullets should be compared to something like Rain of Fire more so then mini-nukes. Once I get it I'll have a better idea of the power. On paper though it is NOT inferior to other sets. It's average damage listed is about the same as the other 'mini-nuke' powers.

Quote:
Yet the secondary effects alone don't make up for the fact that it takes twice as long to recharge, deals less damage than it should considering it's a melee PbAoE rather than a ranged AoE (of which there is strong precedent that it should deal more damage to account for the added level of danger), and doesn't have properly accounted for variable damage. The secondary effects provide some functionality, but they don't make up for all of the other problems with HoB.
This you may be right about. I can't tell yet. Once my blaster hits 32 I will be able to tell. Or more likely once she hits 33 and slots 3 damage into it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
So, your saying "You used the wrong value because you looked at the entry for AVERAGE DAMAGE instead of how much any given tick does? THe entry for 'average damage' is just that, how much damage the power will do... on average. This accounts for sometimes it only hitting with some ticks, sometimes hitting with all the damage ticks.
Except that it's obvious from reading the power entry that those numbers are wrong. Just because it's written in game doesn't mean it's correct. If you're going to assume that it's supposed to be "normal" to ignore ticks of a power, Blizzard is listed as having an average damage of 500.49 damage. It deals this damage with 152 separate ticks that each deal 3.34 damage. That damage is a simple multiplication (once again, rounding errors account for the tiny discrepancy) that includes all ticks even though the power itself deals the damage over 15 seconds while making enemies run out of it. The same thing applies to Ice Storm and Rain of Fire.

Hell, the animation times are listed as such but no one who does any valid number crunching actually trusts those values for the purposes of analysis since the game revolves around a discrete .132 second time frame.

You can't simply trust the derivative values given in the detailed information. RoA is an excellent example of why.

Quote:
From fighting warwolves, I'd say they have at least 40% resistance to smash/lethal. Other resistances seem rather low however. That's just one example. Some robots would appear to have high resistance to lethal/smashing (35% to 40% it seems), but low to non-existant resistance to energy and elemental damage.
So you're anecdotally attempting to diagnose the various resistance levels of enemies and then attempting to apply those numbers in an unbiased manner to those damage types? Seriously, do some research first if you want to crunch some numbers in any kind of attempt to draw accurate conclusions.

If you actually checked (the Power Analyzer craftable temps are great for this), you'd realize that Warwolves have 35% resistance to smashing and lethal and 25% resistance to all other damage types. That doesn't grok with the numbers you used because, even with 35% resistance, in order to preserve that proportion of resisted damage, the target would need to have a 30% weakness to other damage types.

The only enemies that have a 50% resistance to lethal without some similar level of resistance to a large number of other damage types are the Council robots, I'll cede that. Though I don't think you can legitimately make the claim that the Council robots form such a large portion of the population of enemies that you could logically use them as a point of comparison with the other crashless nukes. You might as well start attempting to claim that Invuln has no survivability because it dies incredibly quickly when forced to fight enemies that use psychic damage (a similar small portion of enemies compared to the Council robots).

Here is a link to a thread that has a compiled list of all enemy resistances. That will show you just how off base your resistance number is.

Quote:
What you didn't seem to notice was me stating the value was purely for illustration. I make no claims to know the actual resistances of every enemy. I've noticed that some have high resistance to some damage types. I've noticed they tend to be weaker to other types. I noticed on my claw/sr scrapper that robots tend to take half as much damage as carnies do. I noticed that warwolves take half as much damage from my TA/A defender as Family or standard Council troops.
So you stated those values purely for illustration and then attempted to use those values when applying math to them to determine whether a power is underpowered? As I have been saying since the very beginning, if you're going to try to use math in an attempt to validate your opinions about a power, make sure you actually get your information right.

Quote:
On paper though it is NOT inferior to other sets. It's average damage listed is about the same as the other 'mini-nuke' powers.
Don't make me beat you upside the head with numbers and existing precedent. I've already given you a link to the post where I definitively proved that HoB is underpowered. Do you want me to repost it right here, just for you, because you are under some kind of delusion that your terribly flawed attempt at analysis was correct?

In its current incarnation, HoB is substantially weaker than it should be. It's provable. Just because you're too ignorant to realize this and you attempt to validate your concerns with math that has more holes in it than Marxist Communism doesn't make it untrue. Next time you try to do anything with numbers, make sure those numbers are right. Just because you did math doesn't make the results even remotely close to correct.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
If you can hit more than 3 targets with Piercing Rounds, I will give you 5 billion influence.

Piercing Rounds doesn't get to claim legitimate AoE status for the simple reason that it is target capped to be so limiting. Headsplitter and Golden Dragonfly are functionally ST attacks for the exact same reason.
Yeah, it kind of makes me sad, especially with bigger foes... it's hard to line up their hit boxes nicely with smaller targets near them (like Warwolves next to smaller foes in the Council, for instance). I've often been surprised that I didn't hit two foes that were directly in line (or so it seems) in front of me because of this. I understand why Castle needed to fix how those cones worked (you used to be able to jig a bit to the side and server lag or something would make it easier to catch targets in the cone, for those that don't know), but I rather wish the angle was about 5 degrees wider.

It is a bit too difficult to hit more than one target with those. If I'm going to take the time to sidestep and line up targets, the cone should reliably work. I know there are people that don't even bother, so I'd like it to work more reliably.

Given all that, I'm assuming I can make Piercing Rounds hit two targets most of the time, but I wouldn't hope for more, unless they're nicely lined up on the Cim wall or are in a really large group around a tank.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
Given all that, I'm assuming I can make Piercing Rounds hit two targets most of the time, but I wouldn't hope for more, unless they're nicely lined up on the Cim wall or are in a really large group around a tank.
Two isn't hard as long as you are willing to move a bit... of course every second you are repositioning is a second of zero DPS so you may not always want to take the time to hit two if firing off a second attack is quicker.

Three is hard unless you take plenty of time or the enemies are lined up in a row, though it's slightly easier at max range since the cone does spread a little bit.

Four or more is impossible since Piercing Rounds is capped at 3 targets.


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Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Except that it's obvious from reading the power entry that those numbers are wrong. Just because it's written in game doesn't mean it's correct. If you're going to assume that it's supposed to be "normal" to ignore ticks of a power, Blizzard is listed as having an average damage of 500.49 damage. It deals this damage with 152 separate ticks that each deal 3.34 damage. That damage is a simple multiplication (once again, rounding errors account for the tiny discrepancy) that includes all ticks even though the power itself deals the damage over 15 seconds while making enemies run out of it. The same thing applies to Ice Storm and Rain of Fire.
Did you know that when the power description lists average damage for Dual Pistols abilities, it doesn't always include the secondary damage type in the figure? For example, Executioner Shot was giving a listed average damage of 101 with my current slotting of it earlier today. And yes, the power was doing exactly that much damage... But that was JUST the lethal damage that it always does. It was also hitting for another 40 or so points of lethal/fire/cold/toxic depending on which ammo type I had equipped.

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You can't simply trust the derivative values given in the detailed information. RoA is an excellent example of why.
Funny, they are usually spot on from what I've seen.

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So you're anecdotally attempting to diagnose the various resistance levels of enemies and then attempting to apply those numbers in an unbiased manner to those damage types? Seriously, do some research first if you want to crunch some numbers in any kind of attempt to draw accurate conclusions.
So, tell me oh science master. How else does one try to determine information that must be extrapolated? Last time I checked, you did so by using observation (in this case my observations while fighting various enemy groups for the last five years). You then take those observations and use it to extrapolate. In this case, taking observations combined with average damage values we're given to determine what an average case situation might be for damage vs high resistance enemies.

Or is there some super secret school of analytical thought you went to?

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If you actually checked (the Power Analyzer craftable temps are great for this), you'd realize that Warwolves have 35% resistance to smashing and lethal and 25% resistance to all other damage types. That doesn't grok with the numbers you used because, even with 35% resistance, in order to preserve that proportion of resisted damage, the target would need to have a 30% weakness to other damage types.
Wait, you mean you assume everyone has access to a crafted temp power? Even if they have gotten exactly 3 temp power recipe drops EVER since the crafting system was added (all 3 were pistols)? You also assume everyone is fully aware of every single temp power they could craft, even when they had just returned to the game Thursday, the first of April, and been spending most of their time actually playing instead of doing the market mini-game?

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The only enemies that have a 50% resistance to lethal without some similar level of resistance to a large number of other damage types are the Council robots, I'll cede that. Though I don't think you can legitimately make the claim that the Council robots form such a large portion of the population of enemies that you could logically use them as a point of comparison with the other crashless nukes.
Heh, you have no idea do you? Madam Enigma fights a whole lot of robots. She's gone through more then a few council missions, random police band ones at that, which contained more robots then any other type of council troop. She fights nemesis robots frequently. The only high end robot type she doesn't regularly fight is the malta ones.

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So you stated those values purely for illustration and then attempted to use those values when applying math to them to determine whether a power is underpowered? As I have been saying since the very beginning, if you're going to try to use math in an attempt to validate your opinions about a power, make sure you actually get your information right.
Try to grasp a very very simple concept.

If a example is given to illustrate how something can offset a perceived weakness, in this case 'this attack is inherently weaker then the other similar attacks with nearly identical average damage', does it really matter if real values are used? To you I guess it does. I pulled a value out of my rear end. And in the post your so eager to criticize I admitted the number was pulled out of my rear end. I used that number FOR AN EXAMPLE.

Please, consider what the example actually states. I gave an example for if an enemy has X resistance to one lethal damage, and no appreciable resistance to another type. Let's say hypothetically your attacking something with 40% resistance to lethal but only 30% resistance to cold, fire, or toxic damage. You will still end up doing more damage with an attack that combines lethal damage with one of those three then if you used an attack which has the same average damage but is all lethal damage.

But I suppose those you think that example is invalid too because again I pulled numbers out of my rear end. Wait a minute, I just realized something. Your saying I can't use the info from the Detailed Description of powers because it can be wrong, but your then willing to trust the info gained from something else devs put in. Something that could have the wrong info. I find that laughable. Or did you take characters with each and every damage type, and use 100.00 point damage attacks to check resistances?

[quote]Don't make me beat you upside the head with numbers and existing precedent. I've already given you a link to the post where I definitively proved that HoB is underpowered. Do you want me to repost it right here, just for you, because you are under some kind of delusion that your terribly flawed attempt at analysis was correct?[quote]

Again, did you miss that I was pulling numbers out of my *** for the example of vs resistance, and ADMITTED IT in the very same post the example was given? Or are you incapable of handling hypotetical examples? Are you only capable of analyzing a example if it's grounded in numbers you can admit are proven? If so, then maybe what you should do is try to prove that the power description doesn't list average damage for Hail of Bullets. And keep in mind that the average is not "maximum" or "minimum" damage, but what over the course of time the damage averages out as. If an attack always hits with every tick of damage, then the average damage should be identical to minimum and maximum. But if an attack only has a chance of hitting with each tick, then the damage would average out to X amount, which can easily be different then minimum or maximum damage.

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In its current incarnation, HoB is substantially weaker than it should be. It's provable. Just because you're too ignorant to realize this and you attempt to validate your concerns with math that has more holes in it than Marxist Communism doesn't make it untrue. Next time you try to do anything with numbers, make sure those numbers are right. Just because you did math doesn't make the results even remotely close to correct.
So let me get this strait, you've ignored my statements of "Until I actually get the power, I can't make a final assessment, but on paper it looks fine"? I am the very first to admit I don't know exactly how well Hail of Bullets preforms. My DP/Dev blaster is currently level 19. I expect to be able to try it out next month at least. Assuming demon summoning doesn't distract me. Nor do I know how well rain of arrows works. I just got it earlier today, and have not used it in combat.

If after using it I find the power is underwhelming, you can bet I'll be posting well reasoned criticisms of it. Until I can actually use the power or see team mates using it (read be able to pay attention as they use it during a chaotic battle) I will not claim it's broken or not. I will say this though. You all keep saying it's damage is lower then Rain of Arrows. And yet according to the in game info on the two powers, it's slightly stronger.

Think about that please. Then maybe you will grasp that until I can actually test out the power, I can NOT make any judgments on it.

By the same token, everyone here seems to think Bullet Rain has too long of an animation. I find it's about right. Everyone seems to think that Executioner's Shot has too long of an animation and does too little damage. I disagree. I feel it may be right where it should be. In fact just now I managed to one shot a even con minion with it. Of course I still had 2 or 3 damage buffs from other attacks. Usually it leaves a bit of health left. I'd put it in the same category as Blazing Arrow for damage (based on what I've played so far). Only it's animation is shorter then blazing arrow.

But then, from the attitudes I'm seeing in this thread, the mindset of "I'll wait until I can test it myself before damning the power" is less desirable then being a lemming who agrees with others sight unseen.

I'll tell you what. I'll switch over to my archery blaster for a bit and actually try out Rain of Arrows. I'll check what it's currently listed average damage is first. I'll then compare that to actual damage, and I'll even look at your link to factor in their damage resistance.

Started to run this test. At my level, it says that RoF does 3 ticks of 57.65 damage, for an average damage of 115.29 points. In actual practice it has been doing 67.56 damage per tick, but only hitting with 1 or 2 ticks half the time. I think it's applying the damage buff from it's self. It's also taking into account I leveled once before entering the mission. Thus enemies are -1 to me. So still seems pretty accurate. It's averaging around what it said it would. As I slot it up, the average damage will go up.

Although as I'm doing this I noticed something you may have consistently missed.
Copy/Pasted directly from my enhancement screen, and set to level 50:

Average Damage:150.15
Damage Per Activation Time: 37.54
Damage Per Cast Cycle:2.35
Activation Time:4.00s
Recharge Time:1m 0s
Endurance Cost:20.80
Accuracy:1.60X
Available Level:32
Power Type:Click
Target Type:Friendlies
Power Range:90.00 ft.
Effect Area:Location
3 Ticks of 75.07 lethal damage over 1.00s on target
+5.60% strength to all damage for 11.50s on self Ignores buffs and enhancements unresistable

I bolded what may be of interest to you. It's listed average damage IS accurate. Notice how it states the average damage is lower then that of 3 ticks added together? That is because it is not maximum damage. It is AVERAGE damage. It is the damage you can expect to get over time. If the power always hit with all 3 ticks, the average damage would be the sum total of the ticks. Because it does not hit with all 3 ticks all the time, the average is not the sum total.

Keep this in mind when talking about how the in-game info for the power is wrong. Or do you only compare powers based on maximum possible performance? In which case I guess you factored in having Aim and Build Up (I think) from /energy activated for RoA. Of course by doing so you automatically disqualify any set without Aim from competing if comparing similar powers.

So yes, if your only comparing values with maximum possible self +dam buffs activated, RoA is the clear winner. But, and I've said this multiple times in the past, I will not pass a damning judgment on a power until I have actually tried it.


"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

 

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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
Did you know that when the power description lists average damage for Dual Pistols abilities, it doesn't always include the secondary damage type in the figure? For example, Executioner Shot was giving a listed average damage of 101 with my current slotting of it earlier today. And yes, the power was doing exactly that much damage... But that was JUST the lethal damage that it always does. It was also hitting for another 40 or so points of lethal/fire/cold/toxic depending on which ammo type I had equipped.
Yes, I have noticed this. I noticed it from the very beginning. This is why the "average damage" isn't reliable.

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Funny, they are usually spot on from what I've seen.
Except that you actually just said that it's not correct in the case of the Dual Pistols powers. Are you even paying attention to your own arguments?

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So, tell me oh science master. How else does one try to determine information that must be extrapolated? Last time I checked, you did so by using observation (in this case my observations while fighting various enemy groups for the last five years). You then take those observations and use it to extrapolate. In this case, taking observations combined with average damage values we're given to determine what an average case situation might be for damage vs high resistance enemies.
Even though your observation was quite obviously wrong? The only case in which your numerical comparisons were correct (and you gauged them as "accurate") is in the case of Council robots. Not any of the other robots (such as the Nemesis robots which do not have any substantial resistance to lethal damage that would even remotely compare to the levels of resistance your were using). Council robots and that's it.

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Or is there some super secret school of analytical thought you went to?
Yes, I went to the super secret school of empirical data collection wherein we don't count on human perception bias in order to collect our information. You may want to try this because I doubt any of the data you collected was anything but anecdotal and thereby unreliable. The very fact that you assumed that 50% resistance to lethal without commensurate resistance to any other damage type was normal pretty much invalidates any claim as such.

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Wait, you mean you assume everyone has access to a crafted temp power? Even if they have gotten exactly 3 temp power recipe drops EVER since the crafting system was added (all 3 were pistols)? You also assume everyone is fully aware of every single temp power they could craft, even when they had just returned to the game Thursday, the first of April, and been spending most of their time actually playing instead of doing the market mini-game?
If someone is, legitimately, this ignorant of what they can do to figure out what's going on with the game, I seriously doubt they give much care to actually attempt to calculate power strength discrepancy. Number crunching is a pretty niche hobby, though, the Power Analyzer isn't the only way to check enemy combat attributes: if you've got a Blaster, you can quite easily get Surveillance (which is an awesome power to get nonetheless because -res is awesome).

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Heh, you have no idea do you? Madam Enigma fights a whole lot of robots. She's gone through more then a few council missions, random police band ones at that, which contained more robots then any other type of council troop. She fights nemesis robots frequently. The only high end robot type she doesn't regularly fight is the malta ones.
First off, this is assuming that everyone's playstyle matches yours. Secondly, you're assuming that your outlier examples (more robots than normals) are standard examples. Third, you're operating under the assumption that all robots have the same resistance suite as the Council robots, which they don't. The Malta robots have balanced resistance suites, and the Nemesis robots have very low resistances to lethal damage.

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Try to grasp a very very simple concept.

If a example is given to illustrate how something can offset a perceived weakness, in this case 'this attack is inherently weaker then the other similar attacks with nearly identical average damage', does it really matter if real values are used?
Yes. It does. If you're using incorrect values, then the fundamental basis of your entire comparison is flawed. The validity of your fundamental assumptions is one of the very first things that you should ensure because the entire rest of your case is based around your assumptions being true. When they're not true, or, only true within a very limited sense, then the validity of the entire analysis is called into question unless it is analyzed within the explicit limited sense in which your assumptions are true.

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Your saying I can't use the info from the Detailed Description of powers because it can be wrong, but your then willing to trust the info gained from something else devs put in. Something that could have the wrong info. I find that laughable. Or did you take characters with each and every damage type, and use 100.00 point damage attacks to check resistances?
First off, you can't use the information from a number of the Detailed Descriptions explicitly because they're wrong. I can reliably prove that those numbers are wrong. I can do it empirically. I can get 30 different people and prove it empirically. It has been proven that those numbers are wrong and that the correct numbers are those listed in the combat attributes rather than in the average damage.

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Again, did you miss that I was pulling numbers out of my *** for the example of vs resistance, and ADMITTED IT in the very same post the example was given? Or are you incapable of handling hypotetical examples?
Hypothetical examples aren't a problem when they're grounded in truth. Yours were not. You literally said...

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Keep in mind people keep saying Lethal damage sets are subpar because so many things heavily resist it. And they do, right? Let us assume an enemy has 50% resistance to lethal damage.
Your assumption was that "many things heavily resist it". Unless your definition of "many" is "a specific subset of a specific enemy group for a specific level range", the basis of your entire "hypothetical argument" was fundamentally flawed.

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Are you only capable of analyzing a example if it's grounded in numbers you can admit are proven? If so, then maybe what you should do is try to prove that the power description doesn't list average damage for Hail of Bullets. And keep in mind that the average is not "maximum" or "minimum" damage, but what over the course of time the damage averages out as. If an attack always hits with every tick of damage, then the average damage should be identical to minimum and maximum. But if an attack only has a chance of hitting with each tick, then the damage would average out to X amount, which can easily be different then minimum or maximum damage.
Already been done. Already been done a couple times, in fact.

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So let me get this strait, you've ignored my statements of "Until I actually get the power, I can't make a final assessment, but on paper it looks fine"?
Because your paper analysis was not only flawed but horribly flawed.

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You all keep saying it's damage is lower then Rain of Arrows. And yet according to the in game info on the two powers, it's slightly stronger.
And yet I'm still drawing the information from the in game information. Look at the combat attributes. Do you honestly believe that 3 times 75 is 150?

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Think about that please. Then maybe you will grasp that until I can actually test out the power, I can NOT make any judgments on it.
And yet, for some reason, you did. You even made these judgments explicitly to counter the judgments of people that actually have use the power. Are you a hypocrite, an idiot, or both?

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By the same token, everyone here seems to think Bullet Rain has too long of an animation. I find it's about right. Everyone seems to think that Executioner's Shot has too long of an animation and does too little damage. I disagree. I feel it may be right where it should be. In fact just now I managed to one shot a even con minion with it. Of course I still had 2 or 3 damage buffs from other attacks. Usually it leaves a bit of health left. I'd put it in the same category as Blazing Arrow for damage (based on what I've played so far). Only it's animation is shorter then blazing arrow.
This is because you're basing performance off of a single attribute that ignores animation time: raw damage. You're ignoring the substantially more important value of damage per activation second.

Also, you're completely wrong about Blazing Arrow having a longer animation time. Do you even bother checking your information? Blazing Arrow has a raw animation time of 1.83 seconds. Executioner's Shot has a raw animation time of 2.57 seconds. 1.83
Seriously, you can't even get that right.

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But then, from the attitudes I'm seeing in this thread, the mindset of "I'll wait until I can test it myself before damning the power" is less desirable then being a lemming who agrees with others sight unseen.
Of course! Because no one except for you has actually played around with the power. All of the players from closed and open beta that complained about the mediocre damage capabilities of the set didn't play around with it at all. All of the players that have already played a Dual Pistols toon up to 50 and complained about the mediocre damage capability didn't play around with it at all. The only person in the entire game that has tested out the power and come to an accurate conclusion is you, even though you can't even get basic information about the power correct.

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I'll tell you what. I'll switch over to my archery blaster for a bit and actually try out Rain of Arrows. I'll check what it's currently listed average damage is first. I'll then compare that to actual damage, and I'll even look at your link to factor in their damage resistance.

Started to run this test. At my level, it says that RoF does 3 ticks of 57.65 damage, for an average damage of 115.29 points. In actual practice it has been doing 67.56 damage per tick, but only hitting with 1 or 2 ticks half the time. I think it's applying the damage buff from it's self. It's also taking into account I leveled once before entering the mission. Thus enemies are -1 to me. So still seems pretty accurate. It's averaging around what it said it would. As I slot it up, the average damage will go up.
Are you only looking at the numbers that pop up, because, if there are enough numbers popping up from a single application, more don't show up. Do you honestly believe that the enemies you're fighting only have 65 hit points because you only see one or two ticks from RoA? This is why empirical data collection is so much more effective than your anecdotal analysis. I can tell you right now that the entire reason you're only seeing one or two ticks is because of number appearance saturation. If you'd like other examples, try looking at your damage dealt rather than simply counting on the UI to tell you things.

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Although as I'm doing this I noticed something you may have consistently missed.
No, I think this is what you've been missing. I've been harping on you about this from the very beginning. Those numbers are wrong.

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I bolded what may be of interest to you. It's listed average damage IS accurate.
Except that it isn't because you don't know how to accurately collect information.

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Notice how it states the average damage is lower then that of 3 ticks added together? That is because it is not maximum damage. It is AVERAGE damage. It is the damage you can expect to get over time. If the power always hit with all 3 ticks, the average damage would be the sum total of the ticks. Because it does not hit with all 3 ticks all the time, the average is not the sum total.
Did you ever read what I told you about the other rain powers and how they have average damages that are explicit sums of the totals of their ticks even though they force enemies to leave the range of the power on their own? Honestly, do you not read anything except what you want to hear?

Do you honestly expect Blizzard to deal the 500 damage it lists in its average damage even though it deals that damage over 15 seconds and causes its enemies to run out? The only time you're going to get all of the damage from Blizzard is if you have all of the enemies in there immobilized, which will cause the exact same thing with RoA. Either every other power in the game is wrong or RoA (and you) are wrong.

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Keep this in mind when talking about how the in-game info for the power is wrong. Or do you only compare powers based on maximum possible performance? In which case I guess you factored in having Aim and Build Up (I think) from /energy activated for RoA. Of course by doing so you automatically disqualify any set without Aim from competing if comparing similar powers.
Except that I explicitly stated that I was using base damage numbers. Good job reading that.

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I will not pass a damning judgment on a power until I have actually tried it.
But you'll put out fundamentally flawed math and enter into a full on raging argument with someone that has used all of them, looked at all of the numbers on all of them, and done the math for all of them to outright prove that one of them is drastically underperforming?

I'm did not enter into this discussion ignorant of the capabilities of the powers in question. I have experienced each of them both first and secondhand. I have verified their damages and average performance levels. I actually know what I'm talking about. You have admitted you don't. Do you really want me to continually have to tell you all of the places that you're wrong and demonstrate to the few people still reading this just how little you comprehend about the topic at hand?

I know what I'm talking about. People I have never met ask me questions about this kind of stuff all the time because I know what I'm talking about. The devs care about what I say and the analysis I do because I know what I'm talking about. You don't even know how to read the detailed information correctly.


 

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I agree with NekoNeko! I really enjoy playing City of Heroes! And I have been waiting for a Pistol Powerset since the Original Beta! (I've spent more time than I ever expected deployed than I ever anticipated; so CoX seems "fresh and new" to Me everytime I come back home!). I will admit to being dazzeled by exciment, and that I tend to play Toons based on my "concepts" and just plain fun, rather than DPS or which AT's are more powerful.

I appreciate the time and consideration so many other players have spent gathering this information and posting it. I do read the forums when I can, and it adds to my enjoyment of the game. Thank you for your contributions!


Duty, it is the most sublime word in the English language, you can never do more, you should never wish to do less.