Quote:
Considering you thought that looked like gibberish rather than a correction of your incorrect information, I'm going to have to go with "you have no idea what's going on".|
Originally Posted by eryq2
With all that gibberish i can't tell if you're agreeing they aren't or just wanting to look like MR. UBERNUMBERS.
|
Quote:
| I guess we're suppose to know mids numbers are off/on? |
Quote:
Surrounded in a farm, it's VERY possible to hit more than 2 targets. Need a pic posted, again? 
|
2. I never said anything about it being impossible to hit more than 2 targets. I said that you can get 3 on occasion. The only way to actually get to the cap and treat GD as a "real" AoE is to stack the enemies up (which is possible, if difficult). The AoE capability is a secondary benefit of an AoE power, which is why it doesn't follow the AoE damage formula.
3. If you can really find a pick of you hitting 10 targets with a single application of Golden Dragonfly, feel free. I'm game for seeing that. I'll still say that you can't compare them on the same level because the amount of target manipulation required to get 10 targets into the tiny area of GD is almost infinitely more than is required for FSC and Shield Charge. You can't simply assume that every attack on the planet that can hit multiple targets will have saturated targets, especially when it's literally impossible to fit that many targets in the area of effect without a bug.
Quote:
I think that it is possible that feedback was taken into consideration, but the patches necessary to address that could not be applied before needing to move on in the development schedule or they couldn't be added to an incremental build and needed to be put in the next full build (which would probably mean they're in I17). I don't think it is unreasonable to believe we may still see some changes to Dual Pistols over the next couple months. Unfortunately until I17 is released, we won't be seeing any more patches on Live other than hotfixes.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
That is the issue, there was given solid feedback, people were clambering to have HoB, ES, and EC, changed but they did not listen.
|
This certainly wouldn't be the first time that we've been told about a change that we didn't get for a long time because of the way their build system works.
Quote:
I suspect the reason Rain of Arrows does so much damage is that it really is a "rain" power with three damage ticks, which means that if an enemy runs out of the area before all the damage has landed then that enemy avoids the rest of the hits. It also may have a lower damage cap if it uses the pet cap like some pseudopet powers do. It's not uncommon for some enemies to avoid the third or even second damage tick, and it's difficult to use on moving targets. (I'm not saying RoA isn't a great power, but it does have drawbacks that could account for the extra damage.)|
Originally Posted by Katten
Are you out of your mind? FA, no, not necessarily over powered. But holy cow yes, RoA is overpowered, Shield Charge is Overpowered, and Lightning Rod is over powered.
|
Based on the description of Hail of Bullets, I think it works like Full Auto in that anything in the area is subject to all 24 damage rolls, even if it runs away in the middle of the animation. Based on that, HoB should probably have a 1 minute recharge and do a bit more average damage than Full Auto when using incendiary rounds and about the same when using others... the additional secondary effects would be balanced by having to be in melee range. If it keeps the extra recharge, it should hit harder than Full Auto.
I'd like a bit more damage than that to make up for its unreliability, but if we just balance based on average damage (which the devs seem to do) it still seems underpowered.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Quote:
In the end I want the same thing you do: a set that functions well. Not interested in ripping people apart.| If the set were balanced around having lower damage, the set wouldn't follow the standard dam/rech/end formula. If you actually look at the numbers rather than what you want to believe about them, you'd see that. |
The damage on Hail of Bullets is probably too low. I have "looked at the numbers," seen that 2 is more minutes than 1, and concluded that the power does less damage than some others. The probable reason is that the developers feel the ability to change damage types gives Dual Pistols some utility.
I hope the devs buff DP i really do.
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
The only real difference i see in DP from beta is that the ammo toggles got slapped with a small recharge...which honestly isn't saying a whole lot.
The 2 minute recharge on HoB sounded riduculous on test...and it still does on live. Even with standard SO slotting reducing it to just over a minute, for what HoB does that recharge is excessive by a rather large margin. I'm still gonna GET IT....but it still really needs some tweaking. Standardized to crashless nuke recharge and give me some reliability. This power, on a blaster, should not darn near require 2 DP'ers to accomplish what i've managed to do on a single Archery DEFENDER!
And by that i mean this...I have a TA/Archery defender i took up to 50. I could practically wipe out 70%-80% of even conning to +1 mobs with a combination of Disruption Arrow, Aim, and RoA...not counting little things to prevent running out of the area and return fire before RoA...ie Glue Arrow & Mass Hypnosis from Psy Mastery EPP. Oil Slick Arrow usually finished off surviving LT's and ALMOST bosses when it lit...but that's neither here nor there. HoB does NOT, on average, dish out the same results as my TA/A def's DA+Aim+RoA (and heck...probably with just Aim) with just BU (assuming you're not /dev) AND it has double the recharge, AND it's PBAoE...oh...and it takes FOUR SECONDS TO FINISH! A lllllllittle skewed there, it is.
As much as i love the animations (yup...i'm one of the guys that LOVES the gun-fu/Wanted feel) I can't argue that the anims are also a hinderance to the set in terms of damage output (combined with lower base damages). If you take longer to shoot, it's gonna take you that much longer to get to your next shot...and so on, etc. Time add's up and you feel it. We mentioned it in test that there should probably been some shaving of animation times if possible while still trying to maintain the visual styling of the set. Again...crossing my fingers for this one.
So, while I do hope that we will see some tweaks to DP down the line...preferably sooner rather than later, with the efforts that will be going towards getting I17 and GR ready for the respective releases, i'm not going to hold my breath on anytime within the near future. Though the Devz have surprised us every so often...so here's to hoping (crosses fingers). But until then...i will still be running around Paragon/Rouge Isles waving my shiny guns around and shooting people with glee. (Yes...even with powers like ES and HoB 
)
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
Quote:
It may not be the "normal" play but it seems to be VERY popular over the past 5 years. Just instead of everyone hanging in PI, they stay in Atlas. I could really care less for looking at mids and going in game to see if every sinlge tick of damage adds up. I create for concept more than damage. Even on damage toons. Playing at x8, it's not hard at all to get surrounded by baddies. Granted you have a toon (even if you don't have a clue what's going on) that can handle it. (like i do)
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Considering you thought that looked like gibberish rather than a correction of your incorrect information, I'm going to have to go with "you have no idea what's going on".
Well, it would probably help. I mean, you could always look at the in-game numbers or other sources of information and see if/when they sync with the existing information so as to make your information seem correct. 1. You're talking about being surrounded in a farm. That's not really the "normal" gameplay that this game is balanced around. 2. I never said anything about it being impossible to hit more than 2 targets. I said that you can get 3 on occasion. The only way to actually get to the cap and treat GD as a "real" AoE is to stack the enemies up (which is possible, if difficult). The AoE capability is a secondary benefit of an AoE power, which is why it doesn't follow the AoE damage formula. 3. If you can really find a pick of you hitting 10 targets with a single application of Golden Dragonfly, feel free. I'm game for seeing that. I'll still say that you can't compare them on the same level because the amount of target manipulation required to get 10 targets into the tiny area of GD is almost infinitely more than is required for FSC and Shield Charge. You can't simply assume that every attack on the planet that can hit multiple targets will have saturated targets, especially when it's literally impossible to fit that many targets in the area of effect without a bug. |
Anyone who believes SC is balanced with SOs hasn't done the research and/or is on crack. Not going to bother posting yet again pages of numbers as it's obvious by now people who still claim SC is balanced don't want to listen.
LR and RoA... No argument here. Long animations and powers being in relatively average powersets, I've never seen a problem with these.
Before anyone tards this up with "omg LR = SC"... SC is a tier 9 attack in a defense powerset. Take Super Strength and replace Hurl with Overload, of course meaning you'd be able to stack it with whatever secondary you'd want ; go ahead, tell me that'd be balanced, because that's, in spirit, what you're saying if you say "if LR is fine, then SC is fine".
Quote:
We say it's fine cause we dont want SC to get nerfed. So many people like/love SC, it aint hurting anything so why change it.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Anyone who believes SC is balanced with SOs hasn't done the research and/or is on crack. Not going to bother posting yet again pages of numbers as it's obvious by now people who still claim SC is balanced don't want to listen.
LR and RoA... No argument here. Long animations and powers being in relatively average powersets, I've never seen a problem with these. Before anyone tards this up with "omg LR = SC"... SC is a tier 9 attack in a defense powerset. Take Super Strength and replace Hurl with Overload, of course meaning you'd be able to stack it with whatever secondary you'd want ; go ahead, tell me that'd be balanced, because that's, in spirit, what you're saying if you say "if LR is fine, then SC is fine". |
plus it raises the bar for other stuff
I'm not sure if the set feels underpowered to me. When I played it during closed beta it did feel a bit underwhelming before the changes. After the changes it played much better for me. I'm gonna have to try on live and slowly build my toon up from 1 to get an idea of how to handle the set's abilities.
I did have this idea about using the toxic ammo on bosses to cut down on the damage I take. I wonder how the set performs with chilling embrace from the Ice secondary. I'm sure someone will chime in with a suggestion of a better secondary but I do like the idea of stacking damage debuffs with toxic ammo. Anyone think thats a viable strategy?
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Tried dual pistols in the beta, and .. yea.
I look forward to playing the set in 2012, when it next gets looked at. Although I'd probably give it another look if we could choose alternate animations that aren't "jump around like an idiot shooting at everything except what I'm aiming at"
The Bacon Compels You.
Quote:
While I do enjoy the set as is, I hope to see an option for less over-the-top animations. Because it's rather hard to make a 'serious' character with the current animations.
|
Originally Posted by JohnnyKilowatt
Tried dual pistols in the beta, and .. yea.
I look forward to playing the set in 2012, when it next gets looked at. Although I'd probably give it another look if we could choose alternate animations that aren't "jump around like an idiot shooting at everything except what I'm aiming at" |
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Quote:
Try 3 years. |
Originally Posted by Venture
If history is any guide, the set will eventually be buffed....
...in about a year. |
I can only see playing this set now as a corrupter. I have asked for opinions in another thread to see what others have done with the set. It doesnt look good at all. Its like when they gave elec armor to stalkers all over again. Personally I dont know what was going on in their minds when they let this set go live with such horrible damage with no aim power either.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
What's the best recharge you can get on SC with SO's? What's the best best recharge that you can get with FSC with SO's? Now compare the damage over the down time of SC that FSC is still doing. Any ideas?
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Anyone who believes SC is balanced with SOs hasn't done the research and/or is on crack. Not going to bother posting yet again pages of numbers as it's obvious by now people who still claim SC is balanced don't want to listen.
LR and RoA... No argument here. Long animations and powers being in relatively average powersets, I've never seen a problem with these. Before anyone tards this up with "omg LR = SC"... SC is a tier 9 attack in a defense powerset. Take Super Strength and replace Hurl with Overload, of course meaning you'd be able to stack it with whatever secondary you'd want ; go ahead, tell me that'd be balanced, because that's, in spirit, what you're saying if you say "if LR is fine, then SC is fine". |
Quote:
Quoting myself, because damn, people who quote other people and manage to not EVEN READ THE QUOTE THEY'RE REPLYING TO still annoy me.| Before anyone tards this up with "omg LR = SC"... SC is a tier 9 attack in a defense powerset. Take Super Strength and replace Hurl with Overload, of course meaning you'd be able to stack it with whatever secondary you'd want ; go ahead, tell me that'd be balanced, because that's, in spirit, what you're saying if you say "if LR is fine, then SC is fine". |
In the chances that you are actually that dumb and not just trolling, I'll explain : FSC is in an attack powerset. SC is in a defense powerset. You can combine FSC and SC.
Also : HAY GUYZ blaster nukes suxxxx because neutrino bolt does more DPS lololol
Get. Real.
Or keep whining, your choice. I'll keep obliterating everything in my path before being IOed out on my Shielders - *obligatory edit, because someone is bound to (pretend to) misread that* or before using any IO at all.
Quote:
lulz
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Quoting myself, because damn, people who quote other people and manage to not EVEN READ THE QUOTE THEY'RE REPLYING TO still annoy me.
In the chances that you are actually that dumb and not just trolling, I'll explain : FSC is in an attack powerset. SC is in a defense powerset. You can combine FSC and SC. Also : HAY GUYZ blaster nukes suxxxx because Nihilii bolt does more DPS lololol Get. Real. Or keep whining, your choice. I'll keep obliterating everything in my path before being IOed out on my Shielders - *obligatory edit, because someone is bound to (pretend to) misread that* or before using any IO at all. |
Quote:
I made a thread about this and have to give u 2nd place to 'Getting DPd hurts'.
|
Originally Posted by eryq2
On a side note, i'll take the DP name winner with my Goldy Glocks. tyvm.
|
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
When you get to 50, we'll go team against L53 rikti on test. You can use your pistols blaster while I use my archery blaster and we'll see who kills quicker.
|
Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
I'm not sure if the set feels underpowered to me. When I played it during closed beta it did feel a bit underwhelming before the changes. After the changes it played much better for me. I'm gonna have to try on live and slowly build my toon up from 1 to get an idea of how to handle the set's abilities.
I did have this idea about using the toxic ammo on bosses to cut down on the damage I take. I wonder how the set performs with chilling embrace from the Ice secondary. I'm sure someone will chime in with a suggestion of a better secondary but I do like the idea of stacking damage debuffs with toxic ammo. Anyone think thats a viable strategy? |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
I made a thread about this and have to give u 2nd place to 'Getting DPd hurts'.
|
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
Yea, my ice/ice blaster is overpowered too. I got a stoopid Blizzard AND an Ice Storm, even though ice storm is in my 2ndary, i think it does WAY too much damage with my stupid Aim AND Build Up.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Quoting myself, because damn, people who quote other people and manage to not EVEN READ THE QUOTE THEY'RE REPLYING TO still annoy me.
In the chances that you are actually that dumb and not just trolling, I'll explain : FSC is in an attack powerset. SC is in a defense powerset. You can combine FSC and SC. Also : HAY GUYZ blaster nukes suxxxx because neutrino bolt does more DPS lololol Get. Real. Or keep whining, your choice. I'll keep obliterating everything in my path before being IOed out on my Shielders - *obligatory edit, because someone is bound to (pretend to) misread that* or before using any IO at all. |
Quote:
Sounds like fun. Only one problem though, I'm not gonna be able to play much during double exp this weekend. Its the anniversary of when I met my fiance and spending time with her is more important than playing this game. It might be a while before I hit 50 with a Pistols blaster. When I do though it'll be a blast(or 2 or 3).
|
Originally Posted by Santorican
When you get to 50, we'll go team against L53 rikti on test. You can use your pistols blaster while I use my archery blaster and we'll see who kills quicker.
|
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Yea, my ice/ice blaster is overpowered too. I got a stoopid Blizzard AND an Ice Storm, even though ice storm is in my 2ndary, i think it does WAY too much damage with my stupid Aim AND Build Up.
|
You've got to be kidding me. You're comparing Blasters to Scrappers now? Nihilii's point - had you actually bothered to read his posts completely through - was that Shield charge is an ATTACK power in a MITIGATION secondary.
Blasters get to have high damage attacks in their primary and secondary by the nature of having an offensive secondary! Yes, your Ice blaster gets TWO highly offensive powers in TWO offensive sets. One in the primary and one in the secondary. Blasters can do that. (although I might point out that the two powers you mentioned are both in the same set? WTH?)
Can't believe I have to point this out, but scrappers get an offensive primary, BUT they have a MITIGATION secondary - hence Nihilii's remarks regarding shield charge.
I'm starting to lose track of why any of this bickering about shield charge has anything at all to do with Dual Pistols as a blaster set (although I think there was a valid point back in this thread somewhere) so can we please get over the fact that Nihilii bruised your ego and get back to discussing the merits - or lack thereof - of Dual Pistols? Up until this point I was finding the discussion interesting.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The one thing that I consistently see MISSING from these arguments is is this- DP is the first set designed FROM THE GROUND UP with Defiance 2.0 in play. The proliferated sets were tweaked yes, but this is the one that was designed with the Devs thinking ok.. as they blast they are getting a stacking damage buff every x seconds... OF COURSE THE BASE DAMAGE WILL BE LOWER. It may suck.. but thats the thinking from a balance standpoint.
(edited cause I hit post too fast)
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
The one thing that I consistently see MISSING from these arguments is is this- DP is the first set designed FROM THE GROUND UP with Defiance 2.0 in play. The proliferated sets were tweaked yes, but this is the one that was designed with the Devs thinking ok.. as they blast they are getting a stacking damage buff every x seconds... OF COURSE THE BASE DAMAGE WILL BE LOWER. It may suck.. but thats the thinking from a balance standpoint.
(edited cause I hit post too fast) |
Okay, I'm seeing the point, but then don't the long animations work counter to that theory? I'd have to see the defiance numbers for the powers before I could give a halfway qualified response, but that did jump out at me as an obvious flaw.
EDIT - I'm actually fine with lower damage overall, but I'd really like to see the mitigation in swap ammo increased. With so many aoes and also with the DoT in fire ammo I'm finding that I can pull aggro off my wife's Black Dwarf right through her taunt. Granted, as blasters go I make a good doormat, but I am drawing a serious amount of attention to myself compared to my other blasters, and I don't think it's the animations. Switching from fire to cryo or chemical only helps in that the DoT from the fire ammo doesn't aggro quite as much. I'm not actually seeing the mitigaton of the alternate ammo types so much as I'm seeing the absence of the extra damage from fire.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Mids' doesn't handle rolling DoTs correctly. FSC really has a base damage of 121.44.
Mids' also doesn't have the proper damage on Shield Charge because it wasn't increased to account for the AT mods change. SC really has a base damage of 200.2 damage.
Golden Dragonfly deals 164 base damage in a 10' long, 20' arc. You can get 2, at most 3, target with a single application of GD and it requires a decent bit of placement. The hard cap on the number of targets is 10, but it's literally impossible to fit that many targets into the area of the effect so that number is pretty useless.
FSC, SC, and LR are all PbAoEs with 10' and 20' radii respectively. FSC can easily target all 10 targets for its target cap and SC and LR can easily target all 16 of their targets.
Don't attempt to compare a power that has a tiny bit of AoE capability as a tangential asset with powers that are legitimately AoE powers. You're comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to make the question of balance irrelevant. Welcome to the required Straw Man facepalm. If you're going to do it the same way next time, at least try to make it a bit harder to tell along with actually getting the numbers right. Maybe use Shadow Maul instead of Golden Dragonfly, because at least Shadow Maul is intended to hit multiple targets.
GOOD JOB! TY. Anyways, the powers based on SO's aren't overpowered. Like i said. With all that gibberish i can't tell if you're agreeing they aren't or just wanting to look like MR. UBERNUMBERS. I guess we're suppose to know mids numbers are off/on?
Surrounded in a farm, it's VERY possible to hit more than 2 targets. Need a pic posted, again?