Dual Pistols

Talen Lee · 03-07-2010 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkada

People who say the set being fine underpowered obviously play the game very, very differently to most.

Isn't it amazing how every different point of view is backed up by a huge, unprovable, silent majority?

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MutantX_7 · 03-07-2010 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talen_Lee

Clearly, the people you know and the people he knows should have a fight.

I'm always up for a good fight!

Quote:

Or maybe you should both pull your heads out and consider other, better arguments than 'All my friends say so.'

My only point was that there is no need that facilitates a change to the blaster nukes, just because people skip them. I know people who have skipped them, but I've come across more people who have taken them, so obviously their is some draw.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.

Talen Lee · 03-07-2010 06:22 PM

Yep. I take them or skip them, varying on the character. My nuke on my fire/fire is a set mule, for example. That's a much more reasonable perspective to put forward.

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Grey Pilgrim · 03-07-2010 06:27 PM

Okay, I can tell someone has a hard time seeing set balance if they're saying Dual Blades is a weak set. Man, I just covered Dual Blades in the Tanker section, too. Here goes yet another post on the subject.

Dual Blades is an AOE monster for a melee set. Brutes are able to tap into this AOE capability even faster than other Tankers are, too, so there is no defense in saying it's weak for Brutes. You can not like the look of the set, sure, but by the numbers, it IS solid. You have to focus on ST damage at first, and it does blossom a lot more the further you go in the set.

From past postings on the subject, I think people forget how much DB's numbers add up. For one attack, the damage is often parceled out in 2-5 hits, rather than one bigger orange number. The overall effect is on par with other melee sets, and better for some when it comes to AOE.

So no more hyperbole about Dual Pistols as well, please. It is not trash, it is not completely ran over by other blast sets.

Could it use some tweaking? Yes. So no making me out as a blind fanboi of the set, either. I have plenty of posts in the open beta arguing for an animation to Executioner's Shot (I'd argue for Dual Wield as well), and a balancing of Hail of Bullets. HoB shouldn't have such an extreme range of damage to it and should work a little better.

However, its being a PbAOE is not that big of a deal... if you can't handle getting in melee range to use it, then you're just lumping the set along with ones that also have PbAOE nukes. The devs can't please everyone with a set's design, and that should not be an expectation.

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Shinkada · 03-07-2010 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talen_Lee

Isn't it amazing how every different point of view is backed up by a huge, unprovable, silent majority?

You want to argue with that one? There are VERY few people who can deal with a build that is dramatically weaker than anything else in the AT, regardless of how much they like the concept. Claws would be much more popular if this weren't the case, I think, and Energy Melee much less so.

@Grey Pilgrim: Actually I never said Dual Blades is underpowered. What I said is that it's an endurance chewer, it's much worse at low levels than other sets, and it works very poorly with Energy Armor. It was an anecdote to state that, even if you love the concept, most people have trouble having fun being intensely underpowered, especially when they've seen first hand what other combinations are capable of.

I personally think T9's are immensely important to a Blaster set, though I seem to be one of few in that regard. A nuke can instantly end a spawn without effort - with the obvious exception of EBs onwards - even in a solo scenario. In a team it's basically an emergency I Win button regardless of what the team should run into. A pseudonuke on the other hand can completely cripple every second spawn to the point where the Blaster should be able to solo the rest, and a team easily can. More useful, though I still don't discount Nukes.

HoB isn't an instant mob-clearer or -crippler, not is it an emergency effort, nor is it an immense raise to DPS like the other pseudonukes. Most powers that are skipped, are skipped because they're very situational. When a power that seems like it's meant to define the set is skipped purely because it's just inferior, well, that's a big problem, especially when you can just point to another set and say "What about that one?"

Oedipus_Tex · 03-07-2010 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim

So no more hyperbole about Dual Pistols as well, please. It is not trash, it is not completely ran over by other blast sets.

Could it use some tweaking? Yes. So no making me out as a blind fanboi of the set, either. I have plenty of posts in the open beta arguing for an animation to Executioner's Shot (I'd argue for Dual Wield as well), and a balancing of Hail of Bullets. HoB shouldn't have such an extreme range of damage to it and should work a little better.

However, its being a PbAOE is not that big of a deal... if you can't handle getting in melee range to use it, then you're just lumping the set along with ones that also have PbAOE nukes. The devs can't please everyone with a set's design, and that should not be an expectation.

This pretty much sums up my feeling about things too. Not trash, could use some tweaks, and way too many people freaking out. The thing about it is, the reason the devs can't risk a massive hike to damage is that if they do it, get it wrong, and have to reverse it in whole or part, people flip out even more. The more we yell and throw boogers, the less likely changes of any kind get made.

macskull · 03-07-2010 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

The more we yell and throw boogers, the less likely changes of any kind get made.

Disagree: while the "this set is bad!" cries won't get anything changed, there are several people who've run the numbers and said, "Yes, this set underperforms, and here's how you can fix it." That kind of feedback is necessary, and indeed very helpful, but throughout the course of this game, there's a track record of taking a looooooooong time to buff underperforming sets.

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Shinkada · 03-07-2010 08:17 PM

Lol'd hard at saying that less complaints = more changes. That's possibly the single most blatantly wrong thing I have ever heard from someone regarding this game.

Oedipus_Tex · 03-07-2010 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkada

Lol'd hard at saying that less complaints = more changes. That's possibly the single most blatantly wrong thing I have ever heard from someone regarding this game.

I don't know if you're referring to me, since you didn't quote anyone. But if so, that's not what I meant to imply. What I said was this:

Quote:

The thing about it is, the reason the devs can't risk a massive hike to damage is that if they do it, get it wrong, and have to reverse it in whole or part, people flip out even more. The more we yell and throw boogers, the less likely changes of any kind get made.

This doesn't mean people shouldn't voice dissatisfaction, it means if you start screaming and pointing fingers every time someone disagrees with you or there's something you don't like people will stop listening. And it's a known fact in gaming that game developers should start with underpowered powers and tweak them up rather than overpowered and tweaked down because players tend to freak at the first hint of a "nerf," even of something that just came out of testing.

Stating that you don't like a powerset is fine. Saying such and such power is poor, not working right, too weak, too strong, and so on are fine too.

Where things are murkier is when it turns into "...and anyone who disagrees with me is just stupid/blind/an idiot/mesmerized by the graphics/not looking at the numbers/illiterate/a fanboi/lying to themselves." That kind invective is counterproductive.

StrykerX · 03-07-2010 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim

So no more hyperbole about Dual Pistols as well, please. It is not trash, it is not completely ran over by other blast sets.

Could it use some tweaking? Yes. So no making me out as a blind fanboi of the set, either. I have plenty of posts in the open beta arguing for an animation to Executioner's Shot (I'd argue for Dual Wield as well), and a balancing of Hail of Bullets. HoB shouldn't have such an extreme range of damage to it and should work a little better.

However, its being a PbAOE is not that big of a deal... if you can't handle getting in melee range to use it, then you're just lumping the set along with ones that also have PbAOE nukes. The devs can't please everyone with a set's design, and that should not be an expectation.

It's not the fact that HoB is a PBAoE that's bad so much as the fact that it's a PBAoE that does not reliably kill minions and has a very long animation. Being rooted in the middle of a group for several seconds and pulling lots of aggro without actually killing anything is a great way to faceplant as a Blaster. It's a little safer for Defenders and Corruptors since they can use debuffs to survive the return fire, but for a Blaster if the damage comes up much below average (which happens a lot) it doesn't kill even con minions. Being a PBAoE would be fine if it reliably wiped out the minions like real nukes do. But when Full Auto and Rain of Arrows do more damage with half the recharge time and can do so from a safe distance HoB starts looking pretty weak.

Of course part of it is that HoB is the only PBAoE DoT. All the real nukes have long animations but don't actually pull aggro until the boom hits, which gives Blasters ways to use them more safely. HoB slowly kills mobs like Full Auto does, only you're right next to them while doing it so they can hit you with their best shots before going down even if you do hit them hard enough to drop them. That makes HoB an inherently more dangerous to use than any other Blaster tier 9, yet going by the numbers it's less than half as good as any other Blaster tier 9. When every non-DP Defender nuke or mini-nuke is better than a Blaster mini-nuke, something is wrong...

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JuliusSeizure · 03-07-2010 11:20 PM

It's been a while since I checked, but doesn't Executioner's Shot have a 1.4 base accuracy?

Umbral · 03-07-2010 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure

It's been a while since I checked, but doesn't Executioner's Shot have a 1.4 base accuracy?

You're thinking Hail of Bullets. Executioner's Shot has a base acc of 1.25, compared to the rest of the set that has a 1.1 base acc.

JuliusSeizure · 03-08-2010 12:01 AM

Ahh-- thanks for the clarification Umbral.

Warkupo · 03-08-2010 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloodFairy

yeah and some of you people who drove this game into the ground are worthy of it? I don't think so. Get your own jobs and stop pretending to know things about development and screwing with this game.

Anyone who doesn't see these guns need to be a little stronger (their guns for christ's sake) is blind.

The point was that if you do not enjoy thinking of ways to balance things, you don't have too. There's plenty of people to do that who *do* enjoy it and are quite good at it. Clearly discussing balance makes you upset, despite the fact that you apparently have opinions about it. Obvious solution is to just go do something else.

PC_guy · 03-08-2010 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim

However, its being a PbAOE is not that big of a deal... if you can't handle getting in melee range to use it, then you're just lumping the set along with ones that also have PbAOE nukes. The devs can't please everyone with a set's design, and that should not be an expectation.

except that the difference between this PBAoE and the others is that this has a much longer animation and it does DoT instead of burst damage. you have a much greater chance of dying during the animation than you do after. and for that matter, since the damage is lower than it should, you have a greater chance of dying after the nuke than you do for the others. thats what I don't like about it atleast.

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Oedipus_Tex · 03-08-2010 02:35 AM

I don't think the nuke is awful. I agree it could use a damage boost, but I'm not sure I'm on board with calling it the worst nuke out there. It's not so awful that I'd personally skip it, at least for a teamed character.

Part of the equation is that Archery's Rain of Arrows is really, really, really good. It's probably the best of all the nukes out there, although that's subjective. Part of this is that RoA keeps Blaster-level damage when ported to other ATs, which HoB doesn't do. But it's also linked to the recharge time (fast), damage (great), shape (radial and ranged), and crashless-ness.

Full Auto is conditionally good. The damage and recharge are great, but the shape of the cone can be a challenge to work with. It also has a lower target cap than any other nuke, (10 instead of 16). I wouldn't put this power in the same ballpark as Rain of Arrows despite looking similar from a DPA perspective.

Hail of Bullets is very risky; too risky, IMO, because of where it makes you stand and the fact that it draws aggro the moment it starts firing instead of the end of the animation like most other nukes (exception: Full Auto). It does do less damage than either RoA or FA, and recharges slower. However, subjectively speaking I still like this power better than the crash-nukes simply because I actually use it. The crash-nukes are fun but can't be followed up easily. On a team, you can pop a HoB about once every minute. It's not RoA, but neither is anything else. I definitely think it could do more damage, but I also wouldn't advise skipping it, especially if you team a lot.

Grey Pilgrim · 03-08-2010 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkada

@Grey Pilgrim: Actually I never said Dual Blades is underpowered. What I said is that it's an endurance chewer, it's much worse at low levels than other sets, and it works very poorly with Energy Armor. It was an anecdote to state that, even if you love the concept, most people have trouble having fun being intensely underpowered, especially when they've seen first hand what other combinations are capable of.

Wait, so you never said Dual Blades is underpowered, but it was an anecdote that "most people have trouble having being intensely underpowered?" I think you can see why it sounds like you said Dual Blades is underpowered, as you pretty much said it again. For your specific case, I don't know if Energy Aura hit you harder in some respect, as DB isn't any more end heavy than other sets (it has lighter powers for the most part, but most of them animate faster than other sets, so it adds up to about the same thing).

I'd still say that HoB should just have a less extreme damage range, as it isn't consistent in what it does (and maybe a faster recharge). From posts on actual performance and what I have seen in game, it's a Nuke that needs another power to finish off most of a mob (RoA and Full Auto usually need another attack to even finish off minions... I usually follow up with Explosive Arrow and lead with M80 for those sets because of this). Solo, I'm thinking either leading in for HoB with Dual Wield or Bullet Rain would be a good idea, just to start knocking mobs back, then fire off HoB right away. That would help a bit.

But still, I'm not sure how using HoB is going to kill you any faster than using your other attacks... just set it up to use it right. I rather wonder if people have not yet figured out a solid strategy for using it well, actually. There was a video in open beta of a DP/Fire clearing Cimerora's walls, and they got in close with Hot Feet and fired off HoB while the mobs were running away slowly. That's another tactic that could work while solo beside what I noted up above.

When you're on a team, well, it's pretty much the same idea as any other PbAOE for those tactics.

For Dual Pistols builds with IO sets, I'd probably go for Smash/Melee defense, since you'll probably closer to mobs. I'd also say it's worth grabbing Hurdle and Combat Jumping, so you can get in close and leap out easily.

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Santorican · 03-08-2010 07:47 AM

On my DP/Energy I usually hit build up boost range then empty clips then jump in with hail of bullets but the glaring problem is that even after that I still find quite a few minions are still alive.

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Another_Fan · 03-08-2010 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santorican

On my DP/Energy I usually hit build up boost range then empty clips then jump in with hail of bullets but the glaring problem is that even after that I still find quite a few minions are still alive.

Hail of has an outstanding chance of killing nothing.

srmalloy · 03-08-2010 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum

Personally I'd really like to see an explanation of why it has a two minute recharge, considering it does at best roughly equal damage to Rain of Arrows. Plus it's more dangerous to use, being a pbaoe rather than ranged so you have to run into a mob and get pounded on to use it.

However, if I had 5 inf for every time I picked a target point for Rain of Arrows with my TA/A Defender and had all the mobs but one or two move out of the beaten area before the animation finishes (and, like the other location AoEs, it doesn't actually hit targets until the pseudo-pet drops at the target location, so unlike Full Auto, which attacks everyone in the cone when you light them up even if they wander out of it, anyone who leaves the beaten area before the arrows hit escapes damage entirely), I'd almost be able to buy and slot a full purple set...

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srmalloy · 03-08-2010 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrykerX

Ok, I admit I may have stated that a little too strongly, but I do feel a lot of people will either skip taking Executioner's Shot or only use it when they have to (or to show off the animation). Having to get that close and then be rooted for nearly 3 seconds is bad...

All it really needs is the animation chopped slightly to speed it up to around 2 seconds like Power Burst. Both Executioner's and Piercing really kill the set's whole "high mobility gun-fu" feel, but at least Piercing has full range. At least for me (and several others I've talked to) Executioner's just feels too slow.

The animations feel too long for the set as a whole, although they do give the set a 'cool' factor that the others don't (I admit, mostly from the shiny 'new-car' quality). However, I think the animation for Piercing Rounds is way too silly; throwing your weapons up in the air, while it's a major attitude move, is just asking to have them grabbed away.

I haven't had a lot of time with my character properly slotted out in the higher levels -- due to the rapid advancement during the double XP weekend, she wound up getting to 29 with only four SOs slotted, and the rest mostly 15 IOs with a couple 20 IOs. She definitely felt underpowered relative to other Blaster primaries during the Citadel TF, and has felt underpowered since doing a respec to pull out IOs to sell and reslotting with 30 SOs, but I don't have a good handle on how much yet.

While I think that asking the animators for something like this would be unlikely to make it past the cost/benefit analysis, when playing my DP/EM Blaster, what I wanted to see was different animations for each power driven by a sort of combo system, but only tracking the previous power, so that the animation sequence you got for your attacks depended on the order in which you used them -- Executioner's Shot followed by Dual Wield would give you a different animation for Dual Wield than Empty Clips followed by Dual Wield.

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StrykerX · 03-08-2010 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmalloy

However, if I had 5 inf for every time I picked a target point for Rain of Arrows with my TA/A Defender and had all the mobs but one or two move out of the beaten area before the animation finishes (and, like the other location AoEs, it doesn't actually hit targets until the pseudo-pet drops at the target location, so unlike Full Auto, which attacks everyone in the cone when you light them up even if they wander out of it, anyone who leaves the beaten area before the arrows hit escapes damage entirely), I'd almost be able to buy and slot a full purple set...

I'm pretty sure that's why Rain of Arrows has such good damage... that damage doesn't always land. Which is another reason I have to wonder why Hail of Bullets, which also has less reliable damage, is so much weaker than Full Auto.

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QuiJon · 03-08-2010 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood

I think the issue is mosre that RoA and FA are overpowered (especially in these days of IOs) and Hail of Bullets is more representative of where they should be.

Accept they have always claimed that they were not designing the game based on IO use. So if that has changed is makes on sub par set/power compared to powers that have been in the game longer.

DPs already IMO is not a very good blaster set. The damage overall seems way to weak compared to even sets like energy, and the mitagation is just not there. With the animation times and roots, basicly any AOE gives most mobs enough time to close to melee range and just off you.

The roots need to be looked into, the cone AOEs should be much like energy torrent and not only have a increase to range, but an almost 100 percent knockback chance. As it is now the set should not have been labled as a blaster set, being that is much more kind to use as a corruptor.

BloodFairy · 03-08-2010 06:34 PM

This set needs some sort of SR ability that goes off during use cause of the rooting. Since they ripped off Equilibrium they should at least do it right.

What's missing:
"Keeps the defender clear." Nobody can touch you.

"Treats the gun as a total weapon." You can shoot people with your gun and pistol whip them with it.

it really makes no sense for this to be blaster. I mean someone shooting guns in this specific way is going to have some sort of skill at evading being hit, slept etc. It's really poorly thought out. Would have been a great ranged scrapper (a new spines) especially with pistol whipping replacing attacks like suppressive ammo and making another gun melee attack to replace swap ammo since that should be an inherent power of the guns (like the comboing with the dual blades.)

Energizing_Ion · 03-09-2010 08:18 AM

Just a quick question that maybe someone knows...

If I put a dmg proc IO in Hail of Bullets, does that proc have a chance to go off every 'tick'? I know in a normal dmg click power it just has 1 chance for the 16 (however many are near you) targets...but I was curious since HoB isn't like other click nukes since it has 12 (? not sure how many) separate ticks of damage.

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