Free Form Archetypes
Champions Online's STORY is based on the Champions tabletop game.
Champions Online has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Hero system used by the Champions tabletop game. This is fact. The "Champions" IP and the "Hero System" used by the tabletop games are separate properties. Cryptic purchased the Champions IP from HERO Games. This allowed Cryptic to create a game set in the Champions universe. CRYPTIC DID NOT BUY ANY RIGHTS TO THE HERO SYSTEM WHATSOEVER |
Example
Statesman did a poor job with City of Heroes
Statesman did a poor job with Champions online
Therefor Star Trek online is crap.
Champions the Paper N Pencil games existence and playability refutes the idea that you can't balance a freeform superhero RPG.
Now once again really slowly, To say that freeform MMOs are a "BAD IDEA", because one person with not the greatest track record for making fun MMOs couldn't do it, is just off the wall.
Remarkable in your ability to miss the point. Generalizing from a specific is usually completely incorrect reasoning.
Example Statesman did a poor job with City of Heroes Statesman did a poor job with Champions online Therefor Star Trek online is crap. Champions the Paper N Pencil games existence and playability refutes the idea that you can't balance a freeform superhero RPG. Now once again really slowly, To say that freeform MMOs are a "BAD IDEA", because one person with not the greatest track record for making fun MMOs couldn't do it, is just off the wall. |
I have not played the pen and paper game, but from descriptions in this thread (among others) suggest that the GM needs to moderate player power choices, etc., otherwise they get overpowered. MMOs are not going to pay to have a dev or a moderator watch each of our power decisions: they have to be designed as balanced from some kind of perspective that is consistent for a game engine and a player's perspective.
Perhaps an MMO developer will be able to develop some sort of free form development to a game. But I do not see it happening here, and I don't really want to see it happening here. Our AT system is robust, customizable, and allows for a lot of alts. Changing that system would remove a primary system a lot of people like this game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Remarkable in your ability to miss the point. Generalizing from a specific is usually completely incorrect reasoning.
Example Statesman did a poor job with City of Heroes Statesman did a poor job with Champions online Therefor Star Trek online is crap. Champions the Paper N Pencil games existence and playability refutes the idea that you can't balance a freeform superhero RPG. Now once again really slowly, To say that freeform MMOs are a "BAD IDEA", because one person with not the greatest track record for making fun MMOs couldn't do it, is just off the wall. |
Refute: Champions Online is based on Champions in story only.
The CO freeform system is not based on the Hero system utilized by the Champions tabletop game, and legally may not be based on it.
I will concede that a freeform system can be balanced. However, comparing CO's freeform system to the Hero system is fallacious, as they are not related. (OTOH, I will not concede that the Hero system is balanced, at least not to the degree required for a computer game)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I generally like it, but it'd need some heavy inspection to keep things from getting unbalanced. If you think soft-capping is crazy now, just imagine if anybody who wanted to could grab any +defense toggle in the game at 35...
(Me, I'd just have Defenders with Shield Charge.) |
I've thought the "Signature Power" idea of one additional power from any powerset being available at level 35 was a great idea for a long time. It would be cool to have some really difficult story arc attached to getting it.
I agree with you that some powers might have to be taken off the table. Like I said, I doubt you'd want to allow Fulcrem Shift.
But I would say the most a single power could do is put you to the cap in one category. Right now you can already soft cap most builds for defense with IO's. So if they choose to do that it wouldn't be game breaking. I don't see any builds substantially stronger than say a Fire/Kin Controller is now.
The other reason I like it is that with very little change to the game you open up a ton of new different possiblities, themes and combonations. And more interesting combonations would make for some really neat game play.
I was not suggesting the ability to choose from any powerset across archetype but only within them. Many powersets have similiar powers within the same archetypes which they could limit by locking out similar power options if you chose one of that type. The tricky thing would be on some of archetypes with powersets that have a wide variety of powers within them, like controllers, which could allow for overpowered characters.
It would be crazy if you could choose all AE holds or all AE blasts or all pets so some interlocking would be neccessary. I am just wondering if its been addressed and while I admit there are some people out there who's min/maxing ways would exploit it, I have always been a themed character creator and that is why it appeals to me. I currently play 2 superhero MMOs right now as neither one allows me to create all the characters I dream up.
I suppose the work involved in figuring out which powers would have to be locked out when choosing certain other powers would be too much and it would break the tradition of forcing players to level up each powerset combo singley and therefore bypass too much of the traditional time sinks for a game of this sort. Still I dream of characters that aren't limited to only 2 aspects of power, though I supposed to be fair you have to say 3 aspects of power for those high level players that can access the patron/epic powersets.
Champions the Paper N Pencil games existence and playability refutes the idea that you can't balance a freeform superhero RPG.
Now once again really slowly, To say that freeform MMOs |
As I described above, from the extensive experience of myself (and others) with freeform tabletop RPGs, I can tell you they were NOT balanced without a dedicated live human game master and I believe they cannot BE balanced without a dedicated live human game master without placing such restrictions on them as would essentially render them no longer "free-form."
In other words, "to balance" = "to place limits (restrictions) on some game rules and functions" in sufficient quantity that many players would say "it's not free-form." The very act of "balance" requires either the careful attention of a (preferably experienced) live human being (not possible on the scale of even the smallest subscription MMO populations) or a set of limits/rules/restrictions.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
The mistake here is equating a freeform RPG with a freeform MMO. RPG does not equal MMO in any but the most superficial ways.
As I described above, from the extensive experience of myself (and others) with freeform tabletop RPGs, I can tell you they were NOT balanced without a dedicated live human game master and I believe they cannot BE balanced without a dedicated live human game master without placing such restrictions on them as would essentially render them no longer "free-form." In other words, "to balance" = "to place limits (restrictions) on some game rules and functions" in sufficient quantity that many players would say "it's not free-form." The very act of "balance" requires either the careful attention of a (preferably experienced) live human being (not possible on the scale of even the smallest subscription MMO populations) or a set of limits/rules/restrictions. |
Has there been any discussion on the topic of opening up archetypes so you could choose powers over all the power sets of that archetype as long as you were limited to the maximum number of holds/AE damage/Defense/Resistance the archetype should have? With CO offering such an abundance of choices for any one character, and realizing that such a system wouldn't work for CoH/V, there is still a middle ground that could be explored by keeping things within the archetypes though more open than it is now. Granted it would be a huge undertaking to make sure that the system wasn't exploited but that should be able to be worked out in the long run and would open up themed characters to such new aspects as to make the proposal attractive in many ways. Just a thought I hadn't seen expressed here yet, though admittedly I could have missed it.
|
I guess it could work if our theoretical game company had an infinite budget and an infinite # of employee hours to throw at it, but in the real world it isn't an efficient choice for a multiplayer game to make.
The AT system is a solid mix of novelty and balance. I'd rather they invested time making more ATs than some half-baked attempt to emulate CO's failed power model.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
there is a similar suggestion to this in the suggestions and ideas forums. basically to make this work, it would require that when you choose a power from a tier it locks out all other powers from that tier. and this would be limited to attack sets only. primary for some at's, secondary for others. yes it would require that all powers of each tier act pretty much the same damage wise but would work balance wise.
this though, is not an idea to be implemented into this version of CoX but a new idea to take on for CoX2.
Not too very long ago I made a suggestion similar to this in the ideas forum (for Fun).
Not knowing the game engine as well as some, it could be that many of these ideas are simply unworkable, even if they could be implemented in a balanced way.
One Idea I had which is probably doable is to add more ATs which are variations on existing powersets.
For Example; Take Defender Primaries and Match them with Tanker secondaries.
The damage scaling would have to be adjusted for balance, but it creates a new set of opportunities that currently dont exist (Dominators probably are the closest).
Melee-Fender anyone? I would role one up in a heartbeat.
And I bet they could introduce these new ATs in pairs (one Villainous and one Hero-side).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
basically to make this work, it would require that when you choose a power from a tier it locks out all other powers from that tier. and this would be limited to attack sets only. |
This probably isn't what the OP had in mind when they ... who am I kidding? Sure they did.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
The mistake here is equating a freeform RPG with a freeform MMO. RPG does not equal MMO in any but the most superficial ways.
As I described above, from the extensive experience of myself (and others) with freeform tabletop RPGs, I can tell you they were NOT balanced without a dedicated live human game master and I believe they cannot BE balanced without a dedicated live human game master without placing such restrictions on them as would essentially render them no longer "free-form." In other words, "to balance" = "to place limits (restrictions) on some game rules and functions" in sufficient quantity that many players would say "it's not free-form." The very act of "balance" requires either the careful attention of a (preferably experienced) live human being (not possible on the scale of even the smallest subscription MMO populations) or a set of limits/rules/restrictions. |
In any video game that has tried it, freeform power selection is a mess. It sounds like something you want until you actually have it. Then you realize every character you make is either gimped or built according to pre-defined build plans; the exact *opposite* of the purpose of letting players make power picks. A cousin of this method is the "any character can get any skill!" approach that swept through gaming in the late nineties and early 2000s. It seemed like a good idea at the time but those of who were GMing back then had no idea what we were unleashing.
I think the system City of Heroes uses is the best of any MMO around. If anything I think other games should be copying the CoH approach instead of CoH trying to take a turn for Ultima Online.
Traveler and MegaTraveler as counterpoint. Both freeform, and the rule system worked very well without GM fiddling. I really have to disagree with your assessment that GM had to constantly tweak Champions. It can very easily go that route but in general thats because its the way the people playing want to play.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Heh. I submit that the players you played them with were not that interested in breaking them.
|
i love the Hero System and have played in some very fun games using it.* It is beyond easy to break it even if you stay within the letter of the standard build rules concerning active points, etcetera. The same applies to most pen and paper RPGs no matter how structured or free from they are. However, the free form ones make it much easier.
*Though i avoid going munchkin in most games unless the GM does the same with the enemies, i did on a few occasions end up making characters that ended up being slightly overpowered in Champions Offline/Hero System due to synergies that neither i nor the GM had really noticed during creation.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Obviously the real reason people would want this is to complete their roleplaying concept.
It would never occur to them the power combinations they chose would allow them to decimate all enemies in the game without any inherent risk to themselves. No really, it's just that I have a rp concept in mind. |
Free Form Archetypes would be a very bad thing because you either make it so everyone can be increadibly broken (the possibilities I could come up with would be mind shattering), or make it so that every power functions exactly the same but simply has different graphics (Champions Online). Either way the gameplay suffers, and when the gameplay suffers everything else becomes secondary in a hurry.
|
Champion's Online was horrible.I tried it, and had the same response to it as I did Ever Quest and WoW.Played it for less then 2 hours, didnt like the mechanics, and cancelled it.
These games do as well as they do, because of Eye Candy.Nothing more.
I love it when people still bring this up, when they already tried this in the Alpha and it turned out to be a terrible idea for reasons already posted.
Especially since not a lot of people realise that City of Heroes was originally meant to basically be a Champions MMO with the serial numbers filed off. Champions Online is actually closer to Jack Emmert's original vision... and others have said plenty about that.
This game is already easy and has incredible character freedom compared to most other MMOs on the market. It doesn't need to be broken.
And just to drive a nail into the coffin of 'it's just for RP reasons', I'll use one hated example: the Mission Architect. An RPers wet dream, and what was it first used for? Farming and exploiting on an unprecedented scale, and it had to be violently and repeatedly nerfed to stamp it out. Even RP freaks will succumb to exploiting if it's easy enough.
I submit, for your perusal of overpoweredness.
A Blaster: Shriek Lightning Bolt Fireball Aim Shout Ice Storm Blaze Ignite Blizzard Chilblain Charged Brawl Build Up Targeting Drone Conserve Power Drain Psyche Power Boost Power Sink Psychic Shockwave ....no, that wouldn't be brokenly overpowered at all. I built that using the power choices at each level, which is the most logical way to do something like that. A Scrapper Scorch Storm Kick Cremate Build Up Thunder Strike Confront (every scrapper set has this at level 12) Fire Sword Circle Dragon's Tail Lightning Rod High Pain Tolerance Reconstruction Quick Recovery Indomitable Will Against All Odds Energize Lightning Reflexes Shield Charge Elude Can you imagine the farmer this would be? Just an illustration of the problems inherent free form power selection. |
Twilight Grasp
Tar Patch
Darkest Night
Enervating Field
Freezing Rain
Fearsome Stare
Disruption Arrow
Oil Slick Arrow
Heat Loss
Its not much on support but -res debuff and oil slick to melt anything in the death pool that this would create.
Onibi---Fire/Fire/fire Blaster
I'm ready to burn it all.
Lets Fight!
ParadigmX City help the city.
Oh my, a quick look at mids and some basic addition yields these total numbers for that.
-regen 50%
-to hit 43.85%
-damage 75%
-resist 145%
-speed ~270%
-rech 350%
-def 55%
fear mag 3
2 kd patches
unenhanced damage 250+25
Plus a self aoe heal
Granted, this is ignoring durations and recharge. It's also the unenhanced numbers. The only thing is the -regen is kind of low, but it can be spammed and with the other debuffs would likely be unnecessary anyway.
With the ability to color our attacks (and even change the animations in some cases), any RP justification for this idea gains a little less strength. Granted, you still can't throw a fireball after a lightningbolt followed by a megaton punch, but mweh.
I'd rather see a signature power or something if you're looking to make yourself even MORE unique, but that's about as far as I'd go with that.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
I still think adding one power at some level between say thirty-five and fifty by doing a signature power could add a lot more possibilities without being as broken as the ops suggestion. I also think it would be a great way to breathe life into high level characters. Possibly haaving to do even more special missions or arcs to add slots.
What might help get a more free form feel is just a new AT.
Assault/Defense AT with Epics that have One Buff (like AM, or Thermal Shields wrapped in one power but with a smaller number)/AOE or ST Debuff (not as good as Corrs/MMs/Defs/Trollers, but alot better than the Scrappers/Tanks/Blasters get for numbers in the epics)/ST Hold/ST Immobilze/and a Pet.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection