Free Form Archetypes


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire View Post
I love it when people still bring this up, when they already tried this in the Alpha and it turned out to be a terrible idea for reasons already posted.

Especially since not a lot of people realise that City of Heroes was originally meant to basically be a Champions MMO with the serial numbers filed off. Champions Online is actually closer to Jack Emmert's original vision... and others have said plenty about that.

This game is already easy and has incredible character freedom compared to most other MMOs on the market. It doesn't need to be broken.

And just to drive a nail into the coffin of 'it's just for RP reasons', I'll use one hated example: the Mission Architect. An RPers wet dream, and what was it first used for? Farming and exploiting on an unprecedented scale, and it had to be violently and repeatedly nerfed to stamp it out. Even RP freaks will succumb to exploiting if it's easy enough.
OR...more realistically...most of the players aren't RPers at all!

I mean really. When I was on Victory the first 2 1/2 years of playing CoH, I met one RPer. ONE! And his idea of RP was "we are couple now" o.O Ummm...nooo. :P

Even on the unofficial RP server, Virtue, there's alot of non RPers.

Lets just add into the fact, being a RPer, doesn't mean one won't min/max.

Or the RPers, who make a min/max build and RP around that as the concept (build first, concept later).

All this is to say, not every RPer would be wanting this to min/max. :P


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

OK, first I like the system we have and have no overwhelming desire to see a massive change. Although I do have a question. Is the point of wishing for freeform that people want different types of damage in a build? Fire/Ice/Energy for example.

I ask this because the new dual pistol set allows you pick what damage you you are doing. Granted the majority is lethal, but am I the only person that thinks this might be a tiny baby step toward a more freeform build.

Could we see some sort of armored tech suit AT that has multiple damage types in the future? Perhaps not being able to walk through all the sets in an AT and Cherry pick but being able to select heat vision or X-ray eyes for your eye beams, or have your left gauntlet be a flame thrower and your right gaunlet shoot energy beams or a Sonic assault using a system like the swap ammo system.

Or perhaps a magic set that has a teir 3 attack with a swap spells option that allows you to call upon Earth(smashing), Air(lightning), Fire, or Water(Ice) to go along with other spells that deal "magical" energy damage or call upon dark energies depending on the spell you pick for that tier.

Could it be that the Swap ammo system is the first step by the devs to see just how freeform they can really be and keep things balanced?

Or do people just want their Fire snipe to LOOK like the Rad snipe but still do fire damage, because that is an entirely different conversation that does not involve power choice as much as animation choice.

Or am I missing the point entirely?


The Revenants and Vengeance Imperium-Triumph, Champion & now flavoring Justice!

Tanker Tuesdays & Brutal Thursdays. If you like fun, look'em up!

Shhh! Rangle is plotting.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Statesman did a poor job with City of Heroes
Statesman did a poor job with Champions online

Therefor Star Trek online is crap.

Champions the Paper N Pencil games existence and playability refutes the idea that you can't balance a freeform superhero RPG.

Now once again really slowly, To say that freeform MMOs are a "BAD IDEA", because one person with not the greatest track record for making fun MMOs couldn't do it, is just off the wall.
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

People differ on opinions therefore not one persons opinion is right.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

I submit, its not impossible to balance freeform RPGs, its just so close to impossible its not worth the effort. Even pen and paper games arent balanced. D&D, the ones that have been doing it forever dont hqve it balanced. Many builds for players are much stronger than others. In D&D they assume the DM will balance the party using his judgement.

In this thread alone we have strong examples of min/maxed builds that would be able to blow firekins controlers at farming and rad/sonic defenders on defeating AVs.

I still think the best thing to do would be to allow people special quests at high levels to add one or two powers from any set in the game. This is dangerous in itself and may require some powers, like fulcrem shift, to be unavailabe. But, I think it would go a long way to adding more individuality to each toon. I also think it would allow people to make some of the concept toons they have been wanting to make. I think it gives just enough protection from rampant abuse.

Would the already rich get richer? Yes, Firekins would get a little stronger, but other builds might get closer to catching up.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

People differ on opinions therefore not one persons opinion is right.
My opinion is the only one that counts...


for me

As for balancing free form ATs in a computer controlled environment. That would be next to impossible. PnP RPGs have a living breathing GM who makes the decisions on whether Ubermax the Invincible was hit by a regular club or a club made from Titanium alloy with a genetic impact trigger that releases Anit-Ubermax Chemical #5 when striking all supers named Ubermax. The GM, in those cases makes sure that all the players have equal playtime in the game. At least, they should.

Computer controlled RPGs, on the other hand, have rigid rules they follow that apply to everyone, regardless of their builds, for every mission. Granted, a computer could be programmed to account for most every build imaginable and alter its approach for each build. However, that would require a lot of disk space and more programming hours that most companies would think are worth it.


There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talionis View Post
I still think adding one power at some level between say thirty-five and fifty by doing a signature power could add a lot more possibilities without being as broken as the ops suggestion. I also think it would be a great way to breathe life into high level characters. Possibly haaving to do even more special missions or arcs to add slots.
I am all for one signature power per character. One that you start building at level 20 (or whenever), and you either do missions/arcs/tfs to earn points toward developing said power (within limits or balanced around similar powers). I would love a true PBAoE for my Dark Melee Characters or at least one decent Targeted AoE (since both of the ones in Dark Mastery kinda stink), or a complementary mitigation power.

Things we could do for extra slots would be nice, but you know people would start complaining even more, or swinging e-peens, that their brawl is not (or is) six slotted with Purples or PvP enhancements (I am obviously reaching here), or that something completely unnecessary is too hard for teams performing below standard task force content.


11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?

 

Posted

I think its important to distinguish between RP and the creation of themed characters. While there may not be a large amount of RPing there is a large amount of players that pick a theme for their character even explaining their origin story in the character bio. Its definatly not uncommon to create a character with a concept in mind instead of strictly going the min/max route and hitting the random costume button. It goes back the old days of doodling superheroes in your notebook at school. Look at the combination of powers on some of the foes. For instance the Watchers (Soldiers of Rularuu) who have chomp, optic blast and quill blast. While we aren't to the point where we can make giant floating eyeball characters that is a decent example of something that doesn't fit into the tidy little boxes the powersets force you into.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Champions Online's STORY is based on the Champions tabletop game.
Champions Online has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Hero system used by the Champions tabletop game.

This is fact. The "Champions" IP and the "Hero System" used by the tabletop games are separate properties. Cryptic purchased the Champions IP from HERO Games. This allowed Cryptic to create a game set in the Champions universe. CRYPTIC DID NOT BUY ANY RIGHTS TO THE HERO SYSTEM WHATSOEVER
Not to mention that the game was in development as Marvel Online BEFORE they switched it over to Champions... I would imagine that the powers system may have been partially (if not almost completely) formulated.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSlade View Post
OK, first I like the system we have and have no overwhelming desire to see a massive change. Although I do have a question. Is the point of wishing for freeform that people want different types of damage in a build? Fire/Ice/Energy for example.

I ask this because the new dual pistol set allows you pick what damage you you are doing. Granted the majority is lethal, but am I the only person that thinks this might be a tiny baby step toward a more freeform build.

Could we see some sort of armored tech suit AT that has multiple damage types in the future? Perhaps not being able to walk through all the sets in an AT and Cherry pick but being able to select heat vision or X-ray eyes for your eye beams, or have your left gauntlet be a flame thrower and your right gaunlet shoot energy beams or a Sonic assault using a system like the swap ammo system.

Or perhaps a magic set that has a teir 3 attack with a swap spells option that allows you to call upon Earth(smashing), Air(lightning), Fire, or Water(Ice) to go along with other spells that deal "magical" energy damage or call upon dark energies depending on the spell you pick for that tier.

Could it be that the Swap ammo system is the first step by the devs to see just how freeform they can really be and keep things balanced?

Or do people just want their Fire snipe to LOOK like the Rad snipe but still do fire damage, because that is an entirely different conversation that does not involve power choice as much as animation choice.

Or am I missing the point entirely?
I know I don't want a free form AT because of different damage types.

It's more of a...Mixture of ATs powers that I want. For example, Gun carrying, telekinetic, martial artist...so what do I need for that?

Martial Arts, Dual Pistols, Mind Control and Force Field powers!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection