Can someone explain how the LRSF is balanced?
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2009-12-29 18:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
This is what I've been trying to say. Couldn't agree more. Teamplay and knowing what your team can do are key, not what AT they bring.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're mixing two things together. A random pug is not the same thing as a mishmash assortment of buff and debuff and damage types in the hands of experienced RSF players. Read my posts. There are keys to victory, and the encounter is easy if you know what they are. That means you see what powersets and ATs people brought, and you adjust to make sure you bring the keys. Lack defense? Bring more lucks. Lots of Lethal/Smashing damage? Get Shivans. Sure, if it really doesn't look like a good mix even with that, 1-2 people might consider getting a different character.
No one is trying to say that any random group of people who try it the first time is the same as going in with a non-optimized team of players who know how to win. It's not. A non-optimized team still knows what they need, and will try to make sure they have all the things they need somehow. For a team that can win the LRSF, there is absolutely no question that the rest of the game is a total joke. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Ok...people having a go at my points.
So the STF Heroes are 54 and not 53, there's still only 4 of them. Unless you go the mass hypnosis route on the STF or are exceptionally good at pulling you're going to be fighting 2-3 heroes at once whereas you can quite easily single pull the LRSF AVs.
None of the STF AVs have debuffs like Radiation infection and lingering radiation or have buffs like Fortitude or +def shield buffs. Mako and Black Scorpion are almost all Smashing/Lethal damage, something most tanks can laugh off. Scirocco has rather large ranged PBAoEs which make him tougher and he deals a mixture of Energy and Lethal. Ghost Widow is the difficult one out of the group with her large self heal, mag 100 hold.
So you can't say that the Heroes/AVs are in any way equal even with a 1 level difference.
Saying that I've succeeded the LRSF more times than I've succeeded the STF. My first LRSF was a complete PuG but then we had 3 MMs (Thugs/Dark, Thugs/Poison and Bots/FF), 2 Corruptors (one a Fire/Thermal and one A Ice/Cold) an Elec/Elec Brute for tanking duty, a Stalker and a Dominator. That combination could make pretty much anything a walk in the park even with the 'buff up and run in stratergy' enabling us to take out 4 of the 8 heroes before getting our backsides kicked and then finished them off with ease the second go around.
It's balanced around bitter tears and breath stealing hiccups. The Devs thrive on that, especially if you add a couple of crushed hopes to the mix.
Alternatively, as everything that is difficult in this game, it's balanced around debuffers and heavy sustained damage dealing: two corruptors (buff/debuff and debuff/heal preferably) and one brute. The rest is accessories. Although having a Mind perma-Dom who knows how to use Sleep is heavenly. Made for one of the safest last mission I've ever had the pleasure of being on.
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Vega
That saying had pretty much died around here until the board merger. I would like to see it die again, but you say it every chance that you get.
You don't like red side, fine. But every Villain related thread does not need "the devs hate villains  "That saying is like herpes, it spreads. |
Devs hate herpes!
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
The next time someone tells you something like that, tell them that they're an idiot and ignore the 'advice'.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
The one time I was on a LRSF run was on my MM and I was told not to bother summoning pets at all. Eventually I volunteered to be Veng bait just so I could contribute SOMETHING to the SF. To this day it's the one badge that I would like to give back. I've never participated in a LRSF run, I was just handed the badge.
|
Even if all you manage to do is to keep 1 minion up, it's still more dps than nothing.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
I've frequently seen single pulls of the STF AVs, I've never seen a single pull of a LRSF Hero, though admittedly I've done a lot more of the former then the latter. I've seen a couple of guides written about specific spots to stand and powers to use that MAY let you single pull the LRSF Heros, but didn't have a leader who wanted to try. It didn't sound easy though. Though after having a couple of wipes with Venged Shivans, maybe it would have been a good idea. Also, as a note, Scirocco's PbAoE is also a mezz, which shuts down most of the support if they want to stay in range to attack at all, since its radius is huge. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
So the STF Heroes are 54 and not 53, there's still only 4 of them. Unless you go the mass hypnosis route on the STF or are exceptionally good at pulling you're going to be fighting 2-3 heroes at once whereas you can quite easily single pull the LRSF AVs.
None of the STF AVs have debuffs like Radiation infection and lingering radiation or have buffs like Fortitude or +def shield buffs. Mako and Black Scorpion are almost all Smashing/Lethal damage, something most tanks can laugh off. Scirocco has rather large ranged PBAoEs which make him tougher and he deals a mixture of Energy and Lethal. Ghost Widow is the difficult one out of the group with her large self heal, mag 100 hold. |
I suspect one difference in success and failure is build and play abilities that are hard to see from the viewpoint of another player. For example, I've seen a Stone Tank drop so fast and frequently to Lord Recluse that the Emp couldn't keep him alive, and eventually we gave up on that STF after about 5 hours. Conversely, I've seen a different, well IOed Stone Tank tank him without *any* support without much trouble. Both tanks *looked* the same to me, very granitey.
Obviously there were build differences, perhaps compounded by playstyle differences, that were unnoticable till we got to a spot that hard. I could see some of it by looking at their IO bonuses, but if I'm team leader I'm very reluctant to start checking those on recruits and kicking people for "non-IO" builds, I'd rather risk success of the TF then go down that road. So I tend to have sympathy for anyone who seemed to have a good team makeup that worked fine till the last mission of either the STF or LRSF, since I led a failed STF team which had that. A few key missing or badly slotted powers can cause the whole TF/SF to bog down there, and I've seen relatively few PUGs that will keep trying after a second or third team wipe. One person who's "out of time" can trigger a second to go, and if you were struggling with 8, you are pretty unlikely to win with 6.
And practicing can be tough, I've only had a chance to go on three LRSFs since they came out, none with more then 1 other friend. I'm just not on much evenings, or for long stretches of play time.
Quote:
Actually...that person was right all along. I got to participate in an RSF last night, and I got pets summoned, and it turns out, they don't help. At all.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
The next time someone tells you something like that, tell them that they're an idiot and ignore the 'advice'.
Even if all you manage to do is to keep 1 minion up, it's still more dps than nothing. |
The 'extra damage' you refer to, even after Power Boosted Vengeance turned out to be fractions of a Hit Point. And that was if they even hit, was wasn't often.
Actually, the guy running the SF last night suggested having them up for damage resistance, which would work, had my secondary not been Traps. I had to run in to lay all my useful powers down, which meant the pets ran in and, since they're six or seven levels below the Heroes, were only marginally tougher than the buffing Vet pets.
The weird part for me was that apparently these Heroes are the only AV class enemy that didn't get the scatter protection. Every other AV I've faced with a burn-like power would actually stand his ground while in the patch, and these are even con critters, so they're getting the full effect.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
I wouldnt like it to be made easier there is enough easy stuff to do. That being said it is quiet annoying when even a good team (ie good players) cant take them down because you never brought a l33t team (character based)
Quote:
Pretty much the problem I found (Bots/Traps here). My bots were doing negligiable damage and, if anything, simply making me an aggro magnet. POssibly why I died so much.
|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually...that person was right all along. I got to participate in an RSF last night, and I got pets summoned, and it turns out, they don't help. At all.
The 'extra damage' you refer to, even after Power Boosted Vengeance turned out to be fractions of a Hit Point. And that was if they even hit, was wasn't often. Actually, the guy running the SF last night suggested having them up for damage resistance, which would work, had my secondary not been Traps. I had to run in to lay all my useful powers down, which meant the pets ran in and, since they're six or seven levels below the Heroes, were only marginally tougher than the buffing Vet pets. The weird part for me was that apparently these Heroes are the only AV class enemy that didn't get the scatter protection. Every other AV I've faced with a burn-like power would actually stand his ground while in the patch, and these are even con critters, so they're getting the full effect. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
As a MM you shoudln't have been getting any agro. When fighting multiple heroes your brutes (or dominators, or whoever is in charge of agro control) should be keeping the agro away from the squishies, and you should make sure you're out of the AoE agro range from the heroes. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Pretty much the problem I found (Bots/Traps here). My bots were doing negligiable damage and, if anything, simply making me an aggro magnet. POssibly why I died so much.
|
If squishies start dieing you'll lose buffs and dps and things'll get dicey. If the brutes can't hold of more than 1 hero they should use inspirations untill they can. If that means getting a new full tray after each hero death than so be it.
Of course this isn't as easy as I make it sound, at least not for PuGs where noone really know eachothers skills and play styles.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
Thats the thing; this wasn't a PuG. The main brute was played a by a friend, and he knows how to manage aggro all right. I've seen him do it. Which is why I don't understand why Positron and Synapse and Citadel seemed to be going off on their own little hunter killer paths, taking out the squishies. *shrug*|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
As a MM you shoudln't have been getting any agro. When fighting multiple heroes your brutes (or dominators, or whoever is in charge of agro control) should be keeping the agro away from the squishies, and you should make sure you're out of the AoE agro range from the heroes.
If squishies start dieing you'll lose buffs and dps and things'll get dicey. If the brutes can't hold of more than 1 hero they should use inspirations untill they can. If that means getting a new full tray after each hero death than so be it. Of course this isn't as easy as I make it sound, at least not for PuGs where noone really know eachothers skills and play styles. |
Re-run will happen, and if that balls' up, then something if most definitely up.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
We don't have that for the same reason we can't have dual capes
|
Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
What the devs ACTUALLY hate is animated hair.
 |
Last LRSF I failed was because we ran it at 48. A bunch of folks SSK'd to 47 simply cannot fight any more than maybe 1 level 53 Hero.
We beat everything else, including the perma-51 Vindicators, but 6 levels is just too much of an obstacle to overcome. With SSK, the need to have perma-levelled enemies in a SF is much less, since you can no longer set the level lower and drag along high level people to make it "easy mode".
Quote:
I have seen scrapper tanking Lord Recluse backed up by kin, so everything is possible. |
Originally Posted by Scientist
I suspect one difference in success and failure is build and play abilities that are hard to see from the viewpoint of another player. For example, I've seen a Stone Tank drop so fast and frequently to Lord Recluse that the Emp couldn't keep him alive, and eventually we gave up on that STF after about 5 hours. Conversely, I've seen a different, well IOed Stone Tank tank him without *any* support without much trouble. Both tanks *looked* the same to me, very granitey. Obviously there were build differences, perhaps compounded by playstyle differences, that were unnoticable till we got to a spot that hard. I could see some of it by looking at their IO bonuses, but if I'm team leader I'm very reluctant to start checking those on recruits and kicking people for "non-IO" builds, I'd rather risk success of the TF then go down that road. |
Think that builds are not that important but that people know how to play their characters and know how to work in team.
You can still fail ITF (and we all know how ITF is easy) if you have people that don't do their jobs
.
"If you want to win you must not lose."
"Easiest way to turn defeat into a victory is to put on the enemy's uniform"
"Better strategic retreat than dishonorable defeat"
- Il Numero Uno (The Number One)
It was just a cheap, crummy, poorly made SF that was built to exclude ATs. I remember Statesman offered people a free year of playtime if they could beat it (basically to find a sploit the Devs didn't see). Instead you got min-maxed groups metagaming and rolling over it abusing shivans/nukes/vengbait.
Nothing to see there. Do it for the badge for the accolade and ignore it, the merit reward is a slap in the face (what was it, 20 or something? rofl) and randoming for an HO sucks. At least let you PICK your shoe.
Quote:
Yeah 'k.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
It was just a cheap, crummy, poorly made SF that was built to exclude ATs. I remember Statesman offered people a free year of playtime if they could beat it (basically to find a sploit the Devs didn't see). Instead you got min-maxed groups metagaming and rolling over it abusing shivans/nukes/vengbait.
|
Quoting you to our regular Master teams on Freedom, where we make it a point of pride not to rely on one particular AT on any run: It's just about knowing HOW to run it.
This'll get a good laugh. Thanks.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iannis
It was just a cheap, crummy, poorly made SF that was built to exclude ATs. I remember Statesman offered people a free year of playtime if they could beat it (basically to find a sploit the Devs didn't see). Instead you got min-maxed groups metagaming and rolling over it abusing shivans/nukes/vengbait.
Nothing to see there. Do it for the badge for the accolade and ignore it, the merit reward is a slap in the face (what was it, 20 or something? rofl) and randoming for an HO sucks. At least let you PICK your shoe. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
Yeah 'k.
Quoting you to our regular Master teams on Freedom, where we make it a point of pride not to rely on one particular AT on any run: It's just about knowing HOW to run it. This'll get a good laugh. Thanks. |
The TF itself is not super hard at all. It's all about strategy and common sense.. not about min/max'ing.. especially considering we usually run with the "Master of" challenges and wouldn't even have access to Shivans or extra nukes of any kind anyway. And with no deaths.. there is no "vengbait" either.
We don't require any specific toons... just players that can listen to and follow direction, and have a good time with. I'm not saying we've never failed completely, but that's usually when something extra-ordinary happens and we are severely lacking something on the team (like team members that fall asleep, haha).
And yes, I agree with the OP.. the -1 settings on "master of" groups was very cheap. I wish they didn't even count.
Here's how our team felt after an amazingly easy MoSTF:
Quote:
Uhm...I didn't say it was cheap. I said I now realise WHY there was such a huge fuss over people getting it with -1. Because doing it at present, without the Mo settings, seems impossible to me.|
Originally Posted by Master-Blade
Seriously.. we bring random toons to the group each time, sometimes expecting it to be an epic phail.. but it ends up turning out not so bad and doesn't take more than a couple tries to get the "Master of" badge.. then we switch toons and do it again.
The TF itself is not super hard at all. It's all about strategy and common sense.. not about min/max'ing.. especially considering we usually run with the "Master of" challenges and wouldn't even have access to Shivans or extra nukes of any kind anyway. And with no deaths.. there is no "vengbait" either. We don't require any specific toons... just players that can listen to and follow direction, and have a good time with. I'm not saying we've never failed completely, but that's usually when something extra-ordinary happens and we are severely lacking something on the team (like team members that fall asleep, haha). And yes, I agree with the OP.. the -1 settings on "master of" groups was very cheap. I wish they didn't even count. |
We had everything you described as needed fo win in the final mission. Good players, solid charcters, followed instructions.
We died most horribly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Somewhere, something is wrong with this statement. I dare not say what, but something isn't right.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
We had everything you described as needed to win in the final mission. Good players, solid charcters, followed instructions.
We died most horribly. |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Sometimes you can have all the ingredients and fail due to bad luck. Sometimes good players have different styles that don't mesh well. It happens.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
The luck of the RNG?
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Somewhere, something is wrong with this statement. I dare not say what, but something isn't right.
|
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Quote:
Because "good", "solid", and "followed instructions" are more than likely 100% not what happened?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Somewhere, something is wrong with this statement. I dare not say what, but something isn't right.
|
As for the -1 glitch... Well, no, I'm going to call it an exploit, mainly because I simply view it as cheating. If you want to play on easy, sure, go ahead, just don't expect to get the bonus adulation other people get for playing on the equivalent 'normal'.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
So... Just ran an LRSF, 49 minutes.
SG/Global Friend people:
Plant/Psi Dominator
Fire/Cold Corruptor
Fire/Cold Corruptor
Fire/Kinetics Corruptor -> Me
Random call-out people:
Widow VEAT
Fire/Electric Brute
SS/Electric Brute -> Went afk just before we rushed the FP. Never came back for the fight.
Mind/Psi Dominator -> Crashed on loading 2nd or 3rd mission, don't remember. Never came back.
So, we had one Shivan, 2 Vengeances stacked on everyone but the Widow's vengbait corpse, and no WB nukes. Oh yeah, there was a Snowbeast, too. Had two deaths, one of the Cold/Fire Corruptors was grilled by a lucky nuke and the participating Brute got nailed by Manticore's Telegank with Statesman chasing them, too.
We didn't exactly have an ideal team and we completely, utterly rolled the Phalanx with 6 people. I guess the Snowbeast is what made all the difference...
IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!1!1!!!eleven!1!
*One more thing of amusement: Actually held and killed Valkyrie through MoG after she rezzed. Soul Storm hold animation is greatly amusing.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Quote:
Your team did however manage to find a solution to 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 9 in my list. |
Originally Posted by LostHalo
We didn't exactly have an ideal team
|
Maybe not "ideal team," but those are good odds.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Dispari, if you have any 45+ villains on justice, or would be willing to transfer one while it's free, I am sure Uber and I could show you how we can advertise for a team in global channels, get an interesting mix of powers, and complete the LRSF in under an hour (90 minutes tops if we have to do a shivan run).
My forum name is the same as my global, but without the _
@Bionic Flea
Now, I could see building a team of doms, stalkers, and brutes that do smash/lethal damage and have no -regen having a difficult time. But I would either have to do that purposely or have a bad run of luck in finding only those powersets.
I don't think Uber or I are claiming that any old team can do this easily. It's like building a good balanced meal of a protein, a starch, and a fruit or vegetable. Yes, that requires certain ingredients. But there are so many possible combinations of those ingredients that it's unreasonable to say it's restrictive because you can't have a balanced meal of burgers, hot dogs, pork chops, and fried chicken.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad