What is it with WP?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-08 13:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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*headdesk*|
Originally Posted by JanusFrs
Literally, def nuke isnt a phrase. When I say def nuke, I mean the Tier 9 power of a defensive powerset, like Invinciblity's Unstoppable and Willpower's Strength of Will.
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*lather*
*rinse*
*repeat*
Granted, i think in many ways Dark Armor's tier 9 comes close to being what could reasonably be called a 'def nuke'. Autohit mag 30 stun FTW.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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This is a case where the problem on paper ceases to exist in the game. RttC is just fine with AoEs, and things being dead is better mitigation than more regen. Besides, what can you do, the whole point is to defeat mobs so that's what's gonna happen. I can see where it might look like RttC needs lots of minions hanging around, and maybe in edge cases this might be so. For general gameplay it ain't an issue.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Killing enemies lower your survivability. And in most case, it's the stronest enemies that will be left when you have the less survivability. I know you can adapt your playstyle to mitigate that, but is it that hard to guess?
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Originally Posted by Emberly
This is a case where the problem on paper ceases to exist in the game. RttC is just fine with AoEs, and things being dead is better mitigation than more regen. Besides, what can you do, the whole point is to defeat mobs so that's what's gonna happen. I can see where it might look like RttC needs lots of minions hanging around, and maybe in edge cases this might be so. For general gameplay it ain't an issue.
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I aggree that it's not that bad. But when you start, it's hard to know wich enemies do worst debuffs then the def they provide. It's not a huge problem, but it does exist.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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THis is why you have Defense and Resistance, and hopefully you're stacking it with Tough/Weave.|
Originally Posted by spiritfox
I don't like regen based toons, and a largely regen based toon without a heal sucks. I don't like the idea of being at less effectiveness because I don't have ten minions around me at all times. I also love sets with good AoE, and the fact is that RTTC and AoE are working at cross purposes.
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There's also Dark Melee and green inspirations you can use with WP for burst healing.
And the one target isn't all that bad for RTTC. Sure some are going to be hard...that's the point. And if well built, that won't even be a problem.
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These problems can be avoided by always taking and using Taunt. As well as picking a secondary that puts out AoE damage, like Dual Blades or Elec.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
WP is a decent scrapper/brute set, although it seems weaker than some. My 49 Fire/WP brute is certainly much squishier than my 50 BS/Shield scrapper... both are IO'd heavily. It seems comparable to my Spine/Regen scrapper in durability, or about middle of the pack in late game.
Now my main complaint with WP as a tanker set is it's nonexistent taunt aura... WP tankers have a much harder time holding aggro and most I've teamed with don't even try. The terrible aura is the main reason why I haven't had any interest in playing a WP tank; I feel rather strongly that a tank is supposed to hold aggro. |
My WP/DB Tanker is a beast at holding aggro. I love the compliments
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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actually, WP works best with AoE sets, since if you kill off all the minions at the same time, your survivability stays fairly consistent.|
Originally Posted by spiritfox
I don't like regen based toons, and a largely regen based toon without a heal sucks. I don't like the idea of being at less effectiveness because I don't have ten minions around me at all times. I also love sets with good AoE, and the fact is that RTTC and AoE are working at cross purposes.
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technically your durability drops when all the minions drop, but since incoming damage also drops, it's a non-issue.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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I never said it couldn't hold aggro, just that it was a lot harder than with better tanking sets. Pair it with an AOE heavy secondary and it'll be adequate in the hands of someone who knows how and works at keeping aggro.|
Originally Posted by BigFish
These problems can be avoided by always taking and using Taunt. As well as picking a secondary that puts out AoE damage, like Dual Blades or Elec.
My WP/DB Tanker is a beast at holding aggro. I love the compliments |
I'm afraid I just can't get enthused about it personally as a tanker set, my number one criteria for a tank is the ability to hold aggro and by that measure WP is the worst tanker primary.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I've heard WP called "easy mode" fairly often, too. It's powerful and versatile, and the
"new kid" has lots of tricks the established defensive sets don't. Jealousy, maybe?
Willpower is a fun set that works with many secondaries. I have WP/WM. WP/Fiery Melee, WP/SS tanks and a Spines/WP scrapper. All of them are fun to play and very durable.
My favourite - so far - is WP/Fire. It has cool looking /fast attacks and packs a punch. Toasting vilains is fun!
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So we can use this argument vs KB then too? Because RttC is just fine with KB because the KB'ed foe isn't attacking and won't be attacking until he gets up and runs back toward you (because of taunt).|
Originally Posted by Emberly
This is a case where the problem on paper ceases to exist in the game. RttC is just fine with AoEs, and things being dead is better mitigation than more regen. Besides, what can you do, the whole point is to defeat mobs so that's what's gonna happen. I can see where it might look like RttC needs lots of minions hanging around, and maybe in edge cases this might be so. For general gameplay it ain't an issue.
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In theory, KB will make RttC more even in its mitigation as the foes thin out. Only a boss/Lts left? Having them on their back would allow you to regen more HP(because the boss isn't taking any away) compared to the 1/2 foe bonus of RttC and them wailing on you.
well I love WP (haven't made a regen since it came out, and that was my fave before that), paired it with almost every attk set, and in most cases never used the fighting pool. Pairing it with the DB set (as was, sort of, intended) does give it a leg up with the weaken combo and such. The trick to utilizing the 'rise to the challenge' is stay on the 'boss' and let the aoe's take care of the rest. I tend to use the taunt from the attack set, on those occasions when I bother to group, so I rarely notice the lack on the toggle, but did get out taunted by an invuln scrapper (lol) and he only had the toggle. But at least it has a toggle taunt, unlike say Energy for example (brute only so far, and that's probably why).
Point is slotted right with dual blades (or some other debuffing AP) w/o any pools, (other than fitness of coarse) I have soloed +7's, fought Nosferatu to a stand still as an AV (sadly even as an EB too) heh. My favorite story was soloing all of the waves of DE at the ending of the Eden Trial w/o using a single insp.
It's a great soloing power. It's only real weakness are alpha strikes. but it makes up for it by having no other real shortcomings. "Ow, Lots of Damage All at Once, My Kryptonite!!!! NOOOooooooo..."
The "set it and forget it" mode it pretty useful when you are playing dual blades and trying to get a combo off, time is limited and the draw time after reconstruction sheathes your weapons is annoying, bad enough on the SoW, wish I could keep my sword in my hand for the "I Have the Power" Pose for that one. =)
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Um, fire, dark, and electric have s/l resistance and status protection. Electric has layers in self-heal/+regen and end drain. Dark has layers in resistance, stealth (and a modicum of +def), mezzes, and a massive heal. Fire...has ...uh, a rez. Now these layers may not equal WP in practice, but they are layers...
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
The weakness of WP is debuff vulnerability. Otherwise there would be no reason to take any other set because WP has excellent regen, exotic def, s/l res and status protection. Layered defenses like that are superior to simply res or heal/regen (like elec or fire or dark) because they don't collapse like a house of cards from one little vulnerability.
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You know, completely ignoring the fact that Willpower has -regen and -def debuff resist and the fact that resistance is, in itself, the debuff resistance for both -res and -dam. */WP's weakness isn't debuffs. The very fact that it is so heavily diversified and has rather good debuff resistances means that it is actually quite a good performer in debuff intense situations.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
The weakness of WP is debuff vulnerability.
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Willpower's biggest weakness is the fact that it relies completely upon passive survivability mechanisms. Its biggest weakness is that which is expressly written in its description: burst damage. If you're going to argue that Willpower is weak to debuffs expressly because it can get it to the face from defense debuff cascade, you might as well say that about every set except for Ninjitsu, Shield, and SR because, apparently, the only debuff that matters is -def and the only debuff resistance that matter for -def is the absurdly high DDR that those sets have.
If you want to play a set that is weak to debuffs, try your hand at */Regen. It's the only personal survivability set without any debuff resists (except for those that you get from PvP). Of course, it's also the set that uses the most animation time by a very significant margin and doesn't get any comparative advantage to account for that cost.
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Well, Regen gets its T9 at level 28, for starters |
Originally Posted by Umbral
If you want to play a set that is weak to debuffs, try your hand at */Regen. It's the only personal survivability set without any debuff resists (except for those that you get from PvP). Of course, it's also the set that uses the most animation time by a very significant margin and doesn't get any comparative advantage to account for that cost.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Uh, ok! I'm not clear on where KB came in and it reads like snark but maybe I am wrong so if I am misunderstanding then sorry! I sure don't have an issue with KB and yeah things on their back are things I don't worry about too much, so yeah, I guess we are on the same page!
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So we can use this argument vs KB then too? Because RttC is just fine with KB because the KB'ed foe isn't attacking and won't be attacking until he gets up and runs back toward you (because of taunt).
In theory, KB will make RttC more even in its mitigation as the foes thin out. Only a boss/Lts left? Having them on their back would allow you to regen more HP(because the boss isn't taking any away) compared to the 1/2 foe bonus of RttC and them wailing on you. |
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Actually, shooting for S/L DEF is pretty amazing on WP. It has low S/L DEF compared to other stuff, but you should be able to work up a good 10-20% depending on what you wanna do. Even possible to soft-cap a Tank on it, and maybe a Brute/Scrap with enough work. S/L DEF covers practically every attack in the game, so stacking that on top of your HP, RES, and regen is just hilariously powerful. And does more to help you take alphas than +regen does.|
Originally Posted by Psyonico
I suppose I should try to write one of my own, since I know the ideas behind the guide, but basically, try to build for as much +regen and +hp as possible.
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My WP Scrap build has 32.5% S/L DEF, up from the basic 4%. CJ + Weave + Steadfast + various other bonuses.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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The only problem with WP is that it looks boring and plays equally so. Super Reflexes is a good comparison, as it too is a toggle and forget set, but the possibility of rapid combat movement through Quickness, IOs, and Elude makes the set far more enjoyable.
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Sorry, that was a general statement not directed at you. More or less getting people to analyze RttC and exactly what's going on when foes are knocked around, away from the aura or otherwise.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
Uh, ok! I'm not clear on where KB came in and it reads like snark but maybe I am wrong so if I am misunderstanding then sorry! I sure don't have an issue with KB and yeah things on their back are things I don't worry about too much, so yeah, I guess we are on the same page!
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Rather than "It's out of my aura therefore I just got less effective" we're all thinking "That boss would have done significantly more dmg than the 50% regen buff I lost for knocking him away for 4 sec, therefore it's not making me less effective".
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Lol |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
*headdesk*
*lather* *rinse* *repeat* Granted, i think in many ways Dark Armor's tier 9 comes close to being what could reasonably be called a 'def nuke'. Autohit mag 30 stun FTW. |
Granted, sorry 4 repeating, Dark Amour's Tier 9 comes close to a def nuke, but think about Fiery Aura's Tier 9. This *is* an actual nuke, as it gives hell-of-a-lotta damage as well as KB and stunning. Lovely.
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Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)
If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself
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After playing Regen, Dark Armor and Fire Armor...it's nice to have a set that requires less babysitting. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The only problem with WP is that it looks boring and plays equally so. Super Reflexes is a good comparison, as it too is a toggle and forget set, but the possibility of rapid combat movement through Quickness, IOs, and Elude makes the set far more enjoyable.
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The babysitting comment is meant for humor.
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This is my problem with it. If I wanted to be able to play in my sleep, I'd roll Bots/FF, dammit!
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The only problem with WP is that it looks boring and plays equally so. Super Reflexes is a good comparison, as it too is a toggle and forget set, but the possibility of rapid combat movement through Quickness, IOs, and Elude makes the set far more enjoyable.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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s/l res and half-baked status resistance does not constitute well layered protection. Those 3 sets, for the s/l resists they provide, definitely need to provide some m/s/l def to compete with WP or IOs need to provide enough Res to bring s/l to cap. Elec has 2 layers (res and regen), lacks defense and the end drain just makes mobs run away. Dark has toggle juggling that people mistake for layers, but really isn't. The massive heal is only viable with ToE +End and even then is not something to fall back on when going up against single opponents. Fire has a nicer heal than Dark, fewer toggles to deal with and has Burn (which is definitely nicer redside because of the AOE immobilize in the patron pool). |
Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
Um, fire, dark, and electric have s/l resistance and status protection. Electric has layers in self-heal/+regen and end drain. Dark has layers in resistance, stealth (and a modicum of +def), mezzes, and a massive heal. Fire...has ...uh, a rez. Now these layers may not equal WP in practice, but they are layers...
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All three of those are old and decrepit protections that don't hold a candle to the newer, shinier and better designed WP.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
You know, completely ignoring the fact that Willpower has -regen and -def debuff resist and the fact that resistance is, in itself, the debuff resistance for both -res and -dam. */WP's weakness isn't debuffs. The very fact that it is so heavily diversified and has rather good debuff resistances means that it is actually quite a good performer in debuff intense situations.
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| Willpower's biggest weakness is the fact that it relies completely upon passive survivability mechanisms. Its biggest weakness is that which is expressly written in its description: burst damage. If you're going to argue that Willpower is weak to debuffs expressly because it can get it to the face from defense debuff cascade, you might as well say that about every set except for Ninjitsu, Shield, and SR because, apparently, the only debuff that matters is -def and the only debuff resistance that matter for -def is the absurdly high DDR that those sets have. |
I basically look at WP as swiss cheese in terms of the holes it has. The resistance sets are like the Sudbury Crater. Ok, I exaggerate, but my point stands.
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| If you want to play a set that is weak to debuffs, try your hand at */Regen. It's the only personal survivability set without any debuff resists (except for those that you get from PvP). Of course, it's also the set that uses the most animation time by a very significant margin and doesn't get any comparative advantage to account for that cost. |
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Ahh I gotcha and I agree completely, both regarding defeating mobs and knocking them down like ninepins.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Sorry, that was a general statement not directed at you. More or less getting people to analyze RttC and exactly what's going on when foes are knocked around, away from the aura or otherwise.
Rather than "It's out of my aura therefore I just got less effective" we're all thinking "That boss would have done significantly more dmg than the 50% regen buff I lost for knocking him away for 4 sec, therefore it's not making me less effective". |
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Lol |
Originally Posted by Clouded
The babysitting comment is meant for humor.
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nice one Clouded
@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)
If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself
I love WP! I think it's amazing, and I've done some things on my WP/SS Tanker (LR, Reichsman, RWZ Raid) that my other 50 Tanks would melt if they attempted. My other 50 Tankers are Fire/Fire and Inv/EM.
Here's Ultra, my WP/SS Tanker at L35, soloing Jack-in-Irons.
I obviously couldn't kill him, but he couldn't kill me either.
I ended up droning him.
Personally, I think it's the best armor in the game.
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