The 15 Dumbest Superhero Retcons Of All Time
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-11-17 11:14 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Wow... That is totally wrong... Even worse is how hard I laughed at it after taking 2 seconds to figure it out.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay. This may make me an insensitive clod and an utter pig, but when I read this all I was thinking was "Ooh! Bad pun!"
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Est sularis oth Mithas
while i never hated the paralax villian. i did hate the retcon they used to explain it. to me it really cheapened the Hal Jordan character to an unforgivable extreme.
Now understand I am a huge Kyle Rayner fanboi, and was grateful that he took over as the Green lantern.
but i also appreciated what Hal had done for the grene lanter over the years, and I thought his fall was incredible. a person based on sheer willpower whose will finally broke upon the death of all that was precious to him.
and then he had a brilliant and final redemption as the spectre.
and then they ruin it all with a copout. oh it wasnt his fault it was the drugs, booze, evil yellow fear inducing parasite etcetc.
its like bringing back barry allen and reducing wally to kid flash status again. with the excuse that barrys faster.
So you mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword; and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?
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PENGUIN!!!...(^)>
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While I totally agree that they need to do a reboot of their universe. Then I think of the Ultimatum story arc, and cringe and fume on the crap that it brought to the field.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
It's time for Marvel to have their own Crisis level event and reboot the whole blasted Marvel Universe.
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Well Hal Jordan went from good to evil faster than Mannequin Skywalker so yeah... |
Originally Posted by catsi563
while i never hated the paralax villian. i did hate the retcon they used to explain it. to me it really cheapened the Hal Jordan character to an unforgivable extreme.
Now understand I am a huge Kyle Rayner fanboi, and was grateful that he took over as the Green lantern. but i also appreciated what Hal had done for the grene lanter over the years, and I thought his fall was incredible. a person based on sheer willpower whose will finally broke upon the death of all that was precious to him. and then he had a brilliant and final redemption as the spectre. and then they ruin it all with a copout. oh it wasnt his fault it was the drugs, booze, evil yellow fear inducing parasite etcetc. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Well here's the thing, to me a successful universal reboot needs to have the following:|
Originally Posted by Mylia
While I totally agree that they need to do a reboot of their universe. Then I think of the Ultimatum story arc, and cringe and fume on the crap that it brought to the field.
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1. Plan this well in advance.
2. Decide how it's going to happen
3. Plan for what will happen during and after, including but not limited to: casualties, rebirths, and timeline changes such as story changes, origin changes, characters being displaced in time or replaced.
4. Set definitive rules for continuity.
5. STICK WITH THE PLAN and don't say "to blazes with it" a few years later (Yes, DC i'm looking at you post first Crisis)
6. Include the ENTIRE universe don't just reboot core titles, example: only marvel's flagship titles got rebooted in ONSLAUGHT
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i thought he was to kind.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Heh, someone has a hate-on for Johns.
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he got lots of stuff wrong|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Articles like that remind me why I only read trade paperbacks anymore.
Though the one on Tony Stark in teen mode was weak in that the author doesn't even know that Kang and Immortus are the same person. |
the last thing i want to do is defend Austin's run on x-men,but the whole thing with angels,demons,and werewolves was that many of our legends are based on some types of mutant tribes(or perhaps competing near mutants).Nightcrawler was not a half demon son of the devil,he was the spawn of a demon like mutant that had inspired the legend of the devil.
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I fully agree with the points here. I will admit I have not been in depth comic book reader, I have been getting my history and old arcs in line through wikipedia, so more of the bad arcs that help me understand more of the bungles.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Well here's the thing, to me a successful universal reboot needs to have the following:
1. Plan this well in advance. 2. Decide how it's going to happen 3. Plan for what will happen during and after, including but not limited to: casualties, rebirths, and timeline changes such as story changes, origin changes, characters being displaced in time or replaced. 4. Set definitive rules for continuity. 5. STICK WITH THE PLAN and don't say "to blazes with it" a few years later (Yes, DC i'm looking at you post first Crisis) 6. Include the ENTIRE universe don't just reboot core titles, example: only marvel's flagship titles got rebooted in ONSLAUGHT |
From my first reboot experience is Ultimatum. I still felt they took certain things overboard and blew continuity out the window for the future sense. While they have dropped pretty much to only two ultimates comics, what is going to happen when F4 puts out a new movie and they want a comic series that ties in with it, or even X-men?
Or the finest example Ultimate Avengers. With a Thor movie coming up and him being in the Avengers film there might be the push to get him in to the Ultimate universe again, which will mean a retcon for him.
While they had it all planned out in advanced it was poorly designed for the feet up, and it does not follow any plan, all it followed was how much "silly" can they put in.
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Remember the time Apocalypse stole his nose? Ha ha! Good times!|
Originally Posted by Cowman
*sigh*
Don't ask. It makes a Wolverine fan, like myself, weep bitterly.  |
...
Ok, sorry. That was cruel and unnecessary. I mock Wolverine fans because I am obligated, as one of the very few remaining Cyclops fans, to make sure people remember that there were two sides to that rivalry once. Of course, I do so with full knowledge that one of the only comic book 50-storyline pileups that can compare to the Wolverine Recovered Memory Retcon Parade is the Summers Family Reunion seating chart.
white line = regular old kid (not featured)
black line = kid from the FUTURE
black dotted line = kid from another dimension
black double lines = kid from the FUTURE of another dimension that's been retconned so it's not going to happen any more
black double dotted lines = clone of kid from the FUTURE
red line = ex-wife
red dotted line = clone of ex-wife and ex-wife in her own right (additional seating may be needed for whatever demonic entities have arranged for her to walk the world of the living once more)
red double lines = psychic love affair partner
red double dotted lines = thing that looks like your wife, ex-wife, girlfriend, etc., but is probably just Mystique trying to steal your car keys.
blue line = parent
blue dotted line = parent's alien girlfriend
blue double lines = parent's alien pirate spaceship crew
blue dotted double lines = parent's alien rapist and father of your half brother (NOT INVITED)
green line = sibling
green dotted line = half sibling
green double lines = thought it was your sibling, but the character turned out to suck so it was retconned, but if we didn't keep inviting him to family barbecues he'd starve to death
green double dotted lines = alternate dimension version of yourself
silver line = Mr. Sinister (connect one of these to EVERYONE)
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
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I'm not sure Marvel really cares that much about tying their continuity to the movies anymore. When the last Hulk movie came out, I think the newest Hulk book that week was Skaar, Son of Hulk. |
Originally Posted by Mylia
... While they have dropped pretty much to only two ultimates comics, what is going to happen when F4 puts out a new movie and they want a comic series that ties in with it, or even X-men?
Or the finest example Ultimate Avengers. With a Thor movie coming up and him being in the Avengers film there might be the push to get him in to the Ultimate universe again, which will mean a retcon for him. While they had it all planned out in advanced it was poorly designed for the feet up, and it does not follow any plan, all it followed was how much "silly" can they put in. |
For a while, the X-Men had leather costumes in the comics to match the movies, then they went back to spandex.
Spider-Man shifted to organic web-shooters, then back to mechanical.
The Avengers are another matter. Most media of the last few years has focused on either the "classic" Avengers (Cap, Thor, and Iron Man, among others) or the Ultimate Avengers. And the classic Avengers haven't been in the comics for how long now? Though it does look like Siege is going to fix that, but still.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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Short version: don't just make it up as you go along.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Well here's the thing, to me a successful universal reboot needs to have the following:
1. Plan this well in advance. 2. Decide how it's going to happen 3. Plan for what will happen during and after, including but not limited to: casualties, rebirths, and timeline changes such as story changes, origin changes, characters being displaced in time or replaced. 4. Set definitive rules for continuity. 5. STICK WITH THE PLAN and don't say "to blazes with it" a few years later (Yes, DC i'm looking at you post first Crisis) 6. Include the ENTIRE universe don't just reboot core titles, example: only marvel's flagship titles got rebooted in ONSLAUGHT |
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Well I think they will care enough for the kids coming in to wrap them in to replace the people coming out. Hell even Disney, might but a bit of pressure (or guidance, or nothing) to keep certain ties in to the movies, and comics for more sales. Even the little changes rope kids into the comic series cause they relate to relevant events, and they want to learn more on the lore.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
I'm not sure Marvel really cares that much about tying their continuity to the movies anymore. When the last Hulk movie came out, I think the newest Hulk book that week was Skaar, Son of Hulk.
For a while, the X-Men had leather costumes in the comics to match the movies, then they went back to spandex. Spider-Man shifted to organic web-shooters, then back to mechanical. The Avengers are another matter. Most media of the last few years has focused on either the "classic" Avengers (Cap, Thor, and Iron Man, among others) or the Ultimate Avengers. And the classic Avengers haven't been in the comics for how long now? Though it does look like Siege is going to fix that, but still. |
I am just looking at it from a person who has in depth in the deep lore that is Marvel. Like the new kids coming from the movies of Spiderman and wanting to pick up the comic now to read it. To boot I believe when Spiderman donned the black in Civil War, was around the time of Spidey-3.
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There was no need for the Parallax reveal at all. It was clumsy and unnecessary, and ultimately made no sense in the overall context. The story of Hal Jordans fall and redemption was actually pretty good, even if parts of it were not well written. I for one would have much prefered for the character to have kept that blemish. A character that faulters but manages to redeem himself is far more interesting to read than one that is just perfect. This is particularly true of a character like Hal that is known for his arrogance.
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Originally Posted by LunarKnight
I still don't really have any hate for Parallax. It's actually a pretty decent explanation for an absolutely terrible terrible story from the 90's. I wouldn't let it slide in say... Batman or anything, but in Green Lantern? Really not that bad of a reveal. Personally, I'd probably hate it more if it was just an explanation for Psycho Hal, but taking it far enough to explain a lot of the other downright stupid inconsistencies in the series bumps it at least above the birthing matrix for me. |
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Totally unlike Hal suddenly wanting to destroy all of existence because he couldn't prevent the destruction of his city.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
There was no need for the Parallax reveal at all. It was clumsy and unnecessary, and ultimately made no sense in the overall context. The story of Hal Jordans fall and redemption was actually pretty good, even if parts of it were not well written. I for one would have much prefered for the character to have kept that blemish. A character that faulters but manages to redeem himself is far more interesting to read than one that is just perfect. This is particularly true of a character like Hal that is known for his arrogance.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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I think this is extremely hard to do across multiple titles involving multiple writers / editorial teams over numerous years on what often ends up being comics developed by committee. And often for fans who don't like change (Quesada being one of those) because they eventually want to see loser Peter Parker end up with Mary-Jane (but not actually have an adult relationship with her - marriage, kids, etc) because that is what they expect to happen. Or those who never wanted to see Hal Jordan's name sullied, so him redeeming himself and coming back is "right" to them.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Well here's the thing, to me a successful universal reboot needs to have the following:
1. Plan this well in advance. 2. Decide how it's going to happen 3. Plan for what will happen during and after, including but not limited to: casualties, rebirths, and timeline changes such as story changes, origin changes, characters being displaced in time or replaced. 4. Set definitive rules for continuity. 5. STICK WITH THE PLAN and don't say "to blazes with it" a few years later (Yes, DC i'm looking at you post first Crisis) 6. Include the ENTIRE universe don't just reboot core titles, example: only marvel's flagship titles got rebooted in ONSLAUGHT |
Although some of the retcons mentioned were bad, Wolverine's occurred over years under a lot of different writers / artists / editorial teams over multiple titles - as a popular character, having the chance to stamp your name on the lore is understandable temptation that hasn't hurt the character's popularity at all.
I agree with all of the above, but fail to see why this one has been overlooked...
Ah the "Siege Perilous"... $%@&!
Up until this, I had (U)X-Men #1-260 and began the Run of X-Men in 91 for about 6 issues... then I just wandered off and began to live.
But don't fret for me, I did come back for a short while to pay money for the "Maximum Clonage" Series for spider-Man.
I only buy Comics now if I hear good things, and this comes from a guy that has a lot of comic books... Mostly 70's and 80's. I decided that if I want a good heroic story, I will run my gaming group through one. The benefit of having a solid world that has remained unchanged aside from heroic failures. Miami is gone in my world... Sorry Miami, Casual victim of Ground Zero. The heroes that failed that day will not be forgotten: Mace, Black Radiance, Mystic Militia, Danger Zone, And Wildside. To this day, you can read their names on the memorial plaque erected where Ground Zero melted down along with this quote:
"Though the sand has been fused to glass and shadows burned into the landscaping, They serve as sobering reminders that eternal vigilance is not enough. We must learn to defend ourselves if necessary, but when that fails, we must learn to bear the burden of loss and rise to become stronger. For it is in that strength that we will send a message to those who plot to do harm that it will take more than the loss of a few of us to weaken the rest of us." ~Pres. Ronald Reagan Sept. 29th, 1988
I prefer a universe where the twists come from missing information, unknown variables, Shadowy Figures, or straight up trickery. I bear butterfly effect penalties for time travelers, and always reference my story bibles (Vol 1-46) to insure that nothing relevant will be affected, and when it will be, I show it. I never understood why people needed to radically wreck a perfectly functioning storyline like Mechagodzilla in a toiletpaper factory, but I always followed the tangent that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. and it has made for a great universe to go to, because mine is the same as it always has been, the only thing that changes is the featured players.
My top 5:
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Siege Perilous
Crisis on Infinite EarthsII
Maximum Clonage
Wolverine (Just anything to do with his past is suspect now. Or maybe that is always the way they wanted it to be.)
MY FAREWELL GIFT
It is never truly gone, as long as there is someone left to remember.
Marvel should not reboot, that's what separate lines like the Ultimate books are for. Keep the classic universe running, warts and all. Don't throw away fifty years of history like DC did.
Crisis on Infinite Earths was a new and radical idea 25 years ago, but today reboots are an excuse for lazy writing. DC is plagued with it, writers no longer feel any responsibility to repect the work of those before them. The last ten years of Superman comics have been an editorial trainwreck with multiple origins, Supergirls, General Zods and just unprofessionalism in general.
And like others have said, a reboot without strong editorial control would be pointless anyway, and I don't see a lot of editorial control at Marvel or DC right now.
cant disagree with some of those, especially the One More Day garbage. even now i still won't pick up an issue of spidey. hell, it took JMS coming onboard Amazing to get me to read spider-man after the maximum clonage garbage. (mind you i LIKED most of the clone storyline until that point) but id rather not see a total reboot, a clean slate wipe. good stories can be (and are being) written with what's going on, and id rather see the current mythology built on, then watch them wipe the slate and retread the same dozen or so stories until they decide it's time for another damn reboot.
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Or possibly Generals Zod. Maybe they're like surgeons general. |
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
General Zods
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... his city and no one he cared about. Clearly such grief would drive someone to murder everyone they DO care about.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Totally unlike Hal suddenly wanting to destroy all of existence because he couldn't prevent the destruction of his city.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by LunarKnight
... his city and no one he cared about. Clearly such grief would drive someone to murder everyone they DO care about.
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Like how Batman went genocidal after the earthquake in Gotham.
Or Nightwing beat all of his friends senseless after Bludhaven got nuked.
Or when Green Arrow wiped out a universal police force after a series of bombs devastated Star City.
Or when Pariah tried to rewrite history when he failed to prevent the obliteration of eleventy billion universes.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I find that most people who ***** about Parallax haven't actually read all of the books leading up to him coming into existence (or in many cases, anything but the first issue of Rebirth). Not a single member of Hal's supporting cast was killed when Coast City was destroyed. Literally zero. No ex-girlfriends we'd ever heard of before, not his family, not Tom, not even Ch'pp (though he died in GL: Mosaic, which is still one of my favorite comics ever).|
Originally Posted by LunarKnight
... his city and no one he cared about. Clearly such grief would drive someone to murder everyone they DO care about.
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The best part is that the last storyline before Emerald Twilight was a story about Hal exorcising some evil influence that had been holding him back for years. Then in in the next issue, we have a Return of Superman crossover and he goes crazy.
Hal as Parallax never made even the tiniest bit of sense. Ever.
Combine that with Ron Marz not being a very good writer (despite coming up with a fantastic character in Kyle Rayner) who constantly tried to write future authors into a corner so that they could never bring back the Corps and you get a recipe for "REBOOT, PLEASE."
Little known fact: Gerard Jones (who wrote GL before Emerald Twilight and GL: Mosaic) approached DC about rebooting the GL continuity a la Man of Steel and they flat out turned him down. He wanted to streamline everything and take us back to Hal's first days as a space cop, but they had no interest in doing so. Then the 90's took hold and it became all the rage to make people go crazy/die for no reason and replace them with a new X-TREEEEME version, so they hired Marz to kill off the Corps and start from scratch.
For the record, I don't blame Marz. He was handed a story by editorial and did the best he could with it. I just don't happen to think he's a very good writer.
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There's still no excuse for the Lupine thing.|
Originally Posted by UnSub
Although some of the retcons mentioned were bad, Wolverine's occurred over years under a lot of different writers / artists / editorial teams over multiple titles - as a popular character, having the chance to stamp your name on the lore is understandable temptation that hasn't hurt the character's popularity at all.
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"All of these people are fuzzy... they must be related! It's genius!"
@Mindshadow
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Wolverine is a dangerous character to write simply because it's so easy to fall back on cliches. Too many writers have tried to make him interesting by simply piling more **** on his character's foundations.|
Originally Posted by Egos_Shadow
There's still no excuse for the Lupine thing.
"All of these people are fuzzy... they must be related! It's genius!" |
Oh, he had memory problems before? Well NOW he's got like a million implants and false memories.
He's lost loved ones in the past? Well NOW all the women in his life have been killed as part of some grand conspiracy.
He's animalistic and brutal? Well NOW he's descended from wolves.
In other words, they've simply retread and add-on to his pre-existing traits. And this is rarely a good plan. FOCUSING on his pre-existing traits is fine. Not much growth, but not every story can have that in abundance. But piling on more of the same is just lazy.
His memory issues should never have been delved into as much as they were. Have a few old friends and foes pop up; a couple minor revelations; but for the most part they shoulda just left it alone. "Mysterious Pasts" never hold up if focused on for long. Trying to prolong the mystery will simply create contradictions and disinterest. X-Files fell into this trap quite often.
I was actually rather glad that they simply restored his memory at the end of House of M. I was hoping that it would finally put an end to the impossibly convoluted backstory they'd been shoveling up over the years. Didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped, though.
His rivalry with Cyclops was fun and interesting for the first few years, but it needs to be over (along with his fixation on Jean). That's one thing I've liked recently. They seem to have dispensed with them always *****ing at each other.
The Lupine thing was the last straw. I actually dropped the book after that one. Of course, I've never liked it when they try to expand on Logan's origins or insert some connection between him and Sabretooth. I've always preferred the thought that they were simply two guys who hate each others guts. No elaborate backstory or deep connection; they just want each other dead. Like each somehow recognizes the other as the antithesis (other side of the coin) of the other. Like Joker and Batman.
But then, I knew I wasn't going to like the story from the beginning, simply from an interview with the writer. They were presenting him questions from the forums and one asked about the inclusion of Jubilee. This is pretty much what he said:
"Wolverine is the ultimate hunter. Why would he have some girl in a bright yellow trench coat running around with him?"
The rage I felt at that moment is impossible to describe. But it does illustrate one of the fundamental problems with how people view Wolverine. Putting it simply, many take him too seriously. Logan, like any character specifically MADE to be a bad-***, MUST be taken with a modicum of disrespect for the character. Actually, I'd argue that any character does, but Wolverine's type of character especially. If you take him too seriously, he's only going to come across as shallow, annoying, and little more than a teenage power fantasy.
Of course the most obvious argument to the man's comment is that Wolverine wears BRIGHT YELLOW SPANDEX!!! I MEAN, GEEZ, THESE PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL WRITERS WITH JOBS! I CAN'T BE THIS MUCH SMARTER THAN THEM!!!
Wolverine's healing factor has also suffered from major power creep over the years, expanding from "he can heal faster than most", to "was left as a skeleton after a major explosion, and healed completely within seconds." So to de-power him slightly, a retcon established that every time he dies, Wolverine has to fight the spirit of death to return to the living. Since WWI, he has been in constant combat with a being known as Lazaer (the worst anagram since Alucard), and his soul cannot return to his body unless he defeats Lazaer in limbo, each time. After some jiggerypokery with the resurrected version Shingen, Lazaer and Wolverine ended their constant battle so if Wolverine dies again, it's for real.
When I was about... 11? I wrote superhero stories for fun and made a character named Black Phoenix (yeah, original, I know...), who kept coming back from the dead if killed. When he died, he had to fight the spirit of death to come back to life.
At 11, I abandoned the character, thinking it was too stupid. At 11, I knew better than the staff over at Marvel does now with one of their highest-profile characters.
Est sularis oth Mithas