The 15 Dumbest Superhero Retcons Of All Time
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-11-17 11:14 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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I like the BN tie ins though; they make the event seem more alive when Batman and Superman and everyone are fighting them as well. We just didn't really need the extended go nowhere story dragged out over 3 issues. Even cutting them down to 2 issues a piece would have gotten the point across without deluding it so far. The same was true of most of the Secret Invasion tie ins. Nothing wrong with a thin premise as long as you don't try to stretch it too far.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Best thing I like about Blackest Night is that per Johns, you only need teh Blackest Night mini and GL and GLC books to get the whole story. The other mini's are not critical.
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I just wish writers would respect the work of their predecessors, even if they disagree.
I don't like OMD or the death of Captain America, but if I were to become EIC of Marvel tomorrow, I most certainly would not sign off on a retcon of those events, despite the temptation.
If I want Spidey and MJ to be married, it's easy enough to write a story where they get remarried and then have to deal with the consequences of breaking their deal with Mephisto. You don't have to hand wave it all away.
If I wanted Captain America (Steve Rogers) back, there are plenty of ways to do that without 'revealing he was alive the whole time in hiding', time travel, or any of that.
But I probably wouldn't do either of those things, because of respect for writers and the history of a world. Cap died; it was (IMHO) dumb how it went down and unworthy of the character. But let's move on and tell stories about the future, not the past.
It's a story. You can have anything happen, and move the status quo into whatever you want it to be over time, and it will be more meaningful and permanent than having some handy reality warper just suddenly 'wish' reality was the way it was when you first got into comics.
It seems like too many writers and editors are more concerned with making their mark on the status quo (only to be hand waved away by the next writer) than just telling good stories and then building more good stories out the repercussions of what came before.
Now, there will always be retcons, even if it's just of the "it was a Doombot" variety. But the entire job of the editor is to build a fun universe and part of that is not trampling what got you here.
If you cause the fans to lose connection with what came before, they are certainly not going to form connections with the history you set forth either. They are just going to yawn and wait for the next regime to hit the reset button again.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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But it's the same writer.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
If I wanted Captain America (Steve Rogers) back, there are plenty of ways to do that without 'revealing he was alive the whole time in hiding', time travel, or any of that.
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In that specific case, I'm not talking about the story in progress, I'm talking about the tendency of a new writer or editor in charge of a title to retcon the book, historically.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I kinda liked the proposed Mephisto ending to the Clone Saga. It was sorta clever all things considering. Really though, the biggest problem with the Clone Saga was that the ending was ever in doubt. A good story works towards its conclusion from the first page. Obviously, a lot of this had to do with Marvel thinking New Coke would actually work this time, but when history repeated itself there they were way too slow in setting a new goal for the writers.
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Originally Posted by The_Foo
Every retcon and every story is dumb to somebody. There's always gonna be someone out there that feels Blackest Night should be retconned and Hal's time as Spectre was the best ever, or that clone Spidey was better than Peter Parker Spidey, etc.
These people should be killed. |
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The big snag with the Clone Saga was they did a pretty good job of establishing Ben as the real Peter. What they should have done was set it so that Ben is the clone, and Peter retires to be a father.
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Originally Posted by LunarKnight
I kinda liked the proposed Mephisto ending to the Clone Saga. It was sorta clever all things considering. Really though, the biggest problem with the Clone Saga was that the ending was ever in doubt. A good story works towards its conclusion from the first page. Obviously, a lot of this had to do with Marvel thinking New Coke would actually work this time, but when history repeated itself there they were way too slow in setting a new goal for the writers.
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Yup, but that wasn't the case with Cap. Bucky wasn't even supposed to carry the shield for the entire story arc, but proved popular enough to get a little more time. The reveal at the end of Reborn #4 was supposed to happen in #40 as part of the same story in which Steve died (parallel in many ways, to which the Red Skull died in Issue #1). Things changed when the death of Steve proved to be a bigger deal than anyone expected, leading for a desire to make it seem more permanent, mixed with the unexpected popularity of his replacement. Really, the story was written with Steve's death as a beginning to the story, and his return being the end.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
In that specific case, I'm not talking about the story in progress, I'm talking about the tendency of a new writer or editor in charge of a title to retcon the book, historically.
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That was the intention from the beginning, but the idea was met with about as much support as New Coke replacing Coke Classic (which was never a marketing trick, fwiw, it was a genuine, giant corporate mistake). That's the whole problem with the Clone Saga. It was Marvel trying to backpedal their replacement when they realized people didn't actually want one.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
The big snag with the Clone Saga was they did a pretty good job of establishing Ben as the real Peter. What they should have done was set it so that Ben is the clone, and Peter retires to be a father.
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The Mephisto ending is the best one I've seen. Peter apparently gets incinerated, but is actually unknowingly thrown back in time, making him both Peter and Ben at the same time.
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what
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Originally Posted by LunarKnight
The Mephisto ending is the best one I've seen. Peter apparently gets incinerated, but is actually unknowingly thrown back in time, making him both Peter and Ben at the same time.
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Since the Clone debacle was almost entirely a matter of making Peter the real Peter again, one solution was to make it so there was never a clone to begin with. Replace cloning with a time loop where the original Peter is apparently killed, but is actually thrown back in time (probably with amnesia or some other kludge, I forget the details). He then takes the name Ben Riley and sets out to take back the Spiderman mantle from the apparent phony. The idea was to make neither one a clone, but both of them Peter, just as part of a time loop.|
Originally Posted by The_Foo
what
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It'd be a really cool story if it was intended from the beginning, but they let the Clone Saga run without a solution for so long it was nearly impossible to come up with something that made sense. Too much was written without an intended conclusion. A similar time loop concept is used to great affect recently in **MINOR SPOILERS** BlazBlue for what its worth.
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Coincidentally, this is how Lost will end.
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Originally Posted by LunarKnight
Since the Clone debacle was almost entirely a matter of making Peter the real Peter again, one solution was to make it so there was never a clone to begin with. Replace cloning with a time loop where the original Peter is apparently killed, but is actually thrown back in time (probably with amnesia or some other kludge, I forget the details). He then takes the name Ben Riley and sets out to take back the Spiderman mantle from the apparent phony. The idea was to make neither one a clone, but both of them Peter, just as part of a time loop.
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"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
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I have to say: That sounds like it has a very high chance of ridiculous suckage.|
Originally Posted by LunarKnight
Since the Clone debacle was almost entirely a matter of making Peter the real Peter again, one solution was to make it so there was never a clone to begin with. Replace cloning with a time loop where the original Peter is apparently killed, but is actually thrown back in time (probably with amnesia or some other kludge, I forget the details). He then takes the name Ben Riley and sets out to take back the Spiderman mantle from the apparent phony. The idea was to make neither one a clone, but both of them Peter, just as part of a time loop.
It'd be a really cool story if it was intended from the beginning, but they let the Clone Saga run without a solution for so long it was nearly impossible to come up with something that made sense. Too much was written without an intended conclusion. |
If things were so screwed up that THIS is the sane and excellent alternative, I'm afraid.
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Ah, I see. Thanks for the enlightenment.|
Originally Posted by LunarKnight
Yup, but that wasn't the case with Cap. Bucky wasn't even supposed to carry the shield for the entire story arc, but proved popular enough to get a little more time. The reveal at the end of Reborn #4 was supposed to happen in #40 as part of the same story in which Steve died (parallel in many ways, to which the Red Skull died in Issue #1). Things changed when the death of Steve proved to be a bigger deal than anyone expected, leading for a desire to make it seem more permanent, mixed with the unexpected popularity of his replacement. Really, the story was written with Steve's death as a beginning to the story, and his return being the end.
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Still: killing off Cap and bringing back Bucky?
Not as bad as bringing back 'voted dead Robin', but still...
In any case, I stand corrected on the particulars.
I cling to my opinion that retconning is as overused as the Holodeck, however.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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There are some fan theories that part of the reason why Ms. Marvel got canceled, (other than to give the series a kickstart by starting over with a new number 1, which is getting ridiculous with the number of re-numberings they're doing to embrace the history long running titles have, but ANYway...) is to start a new book with Carol AND whoever is currently Captain Marvel, OR to make way for an eventual Marvelman book, since Marvel is in the process of clearing up the rights to the character.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Actually I too liked Pad's run with Genis as CM. But then came all the garbage from Joe Q. Little promotion for the book and then that stupid "U-Decide" contest where fans got to vote from three choices to be CM......then the cancellation/restart, then the final cancellation. Then what was done in Thunderbolts was atrocious. Truly a character with a lot of promise and he was just MANGLED by editorial decree.
Phyla to me is little more then a joke. Now she is the avatar of death and the Quantum Bands are back with the recently restored Wendell Vaughan as Quasar, so he's back as an energy being and Protector of the Universe again. (amazing, chewed and eaten by Annihilus yet he can come back and Mar-Vell can't.....) Monica Rambeau: to me this was AT FIRST, a weak attempt by Marvel to retain the Captain Marvel trademark. However she grew as a character and was a good Avenger. Noh-Varr: what little I've seen I do not like. Kill him off. Carol Danvers: well I hear ish 50 is her last issue, she's facing off against Mystique and I think ish 49's cover is her vs, "Mar-Vell" though I bet it's Mystique in disguise. Maybe SHE will become Captain Marvel? Her powers came from a Kree device that Mar-Vell saved her from, and were based on Marv's powers so perhaps she is the worthiest to take the name? Only other candidate would be Rick Jones but he's been mangled by the idiotic Red Hulk/War of the Hulks/Fall of the Hulks junk into being the current Abomination. |
I know the basics to the Marvel Captain Marvel concept. It's interesting, and the PDs Genis run was good. I like the -look- of Carol as Ms. Marvel, but her characterization was all over the place in her series. Maybe pairing her up with Cap could finally give her a solid direction to go in.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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I really have no problem with bringing back Bucky. It's not like a body was every found or anything. It's like Bart said in the David vs Goliath episode, "surely the blast that failed to kill me, managed to kill the giant". Steve and Bucky simply survived the same death (though Steve has a more plausible reason for it).|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Ah, I see. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Still: killing off Cap and bringing back Bucky? |
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I cling to my opinion that retconning is as overused as the Holodeck, however.
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The retcons mentioned in the OP, and many, MANY others that occurred in the 90s, define the essence of why I love playing CoH and various superhero PnP RPGs. In short, I gave up READING comics, and began exclusively PLAYING them.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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I don't refer to "good retcons" as retcons at all. They're an in-story realization that what we as readers have seen on the page isn't necessarily the entire story. Filling in the gaps can put an entirely different spin on what we believed to be the "truth" and expand a character.|
Originally Posted by LunarKnight
Oh it is. No questions there. There's just good retcons and bad rectons. Those that take the entire history of a character into account and piece together a logical fix for another writer's mistakes, and those that just lazily say "a wizard did it" or change things up just to be shocking and sell books. I'm only really bothered by the latter two styles.
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"Bad retcons", by my definition, are just retcons - a thinly veiled attempt to alter a character or characters for various bad reasons; attempts to change the target market, endorse products, political agenda, the personal beliefs of the writer. I saw far more of the latter than the former.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
And this is why I don't bother with super hero comics. They never end, and the rewrites never are better than the original story, let alone bother to make any sense, and it just gets milked till theres nothing of value left.
Edit: oh wait, old thread. Why bother saving this from the purge if posting in it breaks the necro posting rule and gets the thing locked anyway?
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Sort of the same here. I'd been drifting away from 'the big two' for years, but they completely lost me during the corporate era of multiple covers, crossovers that entangled the whole 'universe' and wholesale reinvention of characters and teams. |
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
The retcons mentioned in the OP, and many, MANY others that occurred in the 90s, define the essence of why I love playing CoH and various superhero PnP RPGs. In short, I gave up READING comics, and began exclusively PLAYING them.
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I mostly ignore mainstream superhero comics because in a world where nothing is permanent nothing really matters. Whatever goes on with this iteration of a hero team you like will probably get erased by some future creative team. I'm not going to get invested in characters and history that will be overritten at the whim of an editor who thinks he can drum up some extra sales to meet quarterly expectation from the higher ups.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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It doesn't, if the new posts are relevant to the original purpose of the thread.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Edit: oh wait, old thread. Why bother saving this from the purge if posting in it breaks the necro posting rule and gets the thing locked anyway?
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Rise from your graves!
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade! I must admit that I had not seen this thread. It was a pretty good read. Too bad i missed it the first time
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Flashbacks are bad enough, but retcons essentially should never happen.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
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Rise from your graves! |
Stories that take place 'in the past' should weave themselves around known events but be plausible and not displace known canon, unless that is the point of the story, in which case it better be a darn good reason.
Most stories should take place in the present, anyway.
If you want Spidey to seperate from MJ, just have him do it in a plausible way that is an outgrowth of current events or events you orchestrate as the writer. If you can't think of a plausible way to do it now or in the future, then don't do it.
At least the horrifying Clone Saga proceeded from a specific established plot point in the past (that Spider-Man chose not to find out whether the original or clone survived the fight).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Every retcon and every story is dumb to somebody. There's always gonna be someone out there that feels Blackest Night should be retconned and Hal's time as Spectre was the best ever, or that clone Spidey was better than Peter Parker Spidey, etc.
These people should be killed.