Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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But isn't 'Primal Earth' the ones picking the fights with him. I mean the whole Dimensiional invasion was started from this end.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
If Emperor Cole was smart, he wouldn't be picking a fight with "Primal" Earth.
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They are taking 'necessary defensive' measures against unwarranted aggression.
From a certain point of view of course
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Sure - and the Galactic Empire was justified in its actions against the Rebels |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
But isn't 'Primal Earth' the ones picking the fights with him. I mean the whole Dimensiional invasion was started from this end.
They are taking 'necessary defensive' measures against unwarranted aggression. From a certain point of view of course |
Actually, I think Praetoria will attract the "Empire was right" types, as well as those who like the 5th Column, but can't quite agree with their basic ideas
There'll uniforms, and fanatical loyalty, and ranks, and discipline, and orders, and a "higher" purpose - and it'll be all stylish and shiney - so it'll all be totally ok
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I dunno, when I heard about that I figured it was their greatest dream realized. This is a world in which the 'Might for Right' act, or what ever Emperor Cole calls it, never got repealed. They're still under the rule of "if you have super powers, you belong to the government.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Malta are NOT going to like the idea of Praetoria, since it's their worst fear realized, so I can imagine detachments of Malta being snuck in to set up new cells there and take out any super powered being they can.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Its the age old concept isn't it.
People have craved 'strong leadership' who will 'do what is necessary' throughout history.
Dont forget 'Primal Earth' 'Statesman' is a war criminal who led an unjustified and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation just a few years ago. Since the 80's he has been invading and interfering in the internal affairs of other dimensions without cause.
Don't buy into his propoganda.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I think a rejection by her certainly would have isolated him more from humanity. I quibble with the term "evil," especially earlier in his career. I think that without an anchor to humanity in the form of someone like Monica, then a person as powerful as Emperor Cole would become more and more detached from humanity over time - much like Dr. Manhattan.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe her rejecting him would actually make him more evil? Like killing Recluse at the Well could have been a sort of heat of the moment thing, but then being rejected by the woman he loved might push him further to evil?
And if Domi, with another father, still grew up to look a lot like her mother, Tyrant may have started a relationship with her because first, it was a way of "getting back" at her mother, and second, it was way to being with her likeness - that way, their relationship would still be very creepy, but wouldn't have the gross incest thing going on. |
Of course, the Hero Con slides actually referred to Emperor Cole as Statesman's "evil twin," so my quibble is rather meaningless. I just think a more viciously neutral Cole would be more compelling and would also fit better thematically with Going Rogue.
So Praetoria goes from being the Crime Syndicate of America to the Justice Lords. I can deal with that.
Wasn't it stated in one of the panels that Emperor Cole's country wasn't the only one in Praetoria (possible I misheard this)? The DE couldn't form any sort of country, could it?
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I think other countries might lack the tech that Tyrant has in his empire - so they're be less sophisticated.|
Originally Posted by gec72
So Praetoria goes from being the Crime Syndicate of America to the Justice Lords. I can deal with that.
Wasn't it stated in one of the panels that Emperor Cole's country wasn't the only one in Praetoria (possible I misheard this)? The DE couldn't form any sort of country, could it? |
It sounds like a combination of nukes and DE badly damage the world, so large areas might be radiation contaminated wastelands, or huge forests and jungles where the DE live, with the surviving human lands being sort of like islands in the chaos - with Tyrant's one being the only one that's managed to actually progress and develop - a sure sign that his methods work best
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Exactly my point, though I think I came to it via a backwards method. Which of Primal Earth's denizen's is the most destructive? The Rikti? Nemesis? Or Statesman himself? The man has baggage, and it has turned Primal Earth upside down.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its the age old concept isn't it.
People have craved 'strong leadership' who will 'do what is necessary' throughout history. Dont forget 'Primal Earth' 'Statesman' is a war criminal who led an unjustified and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation just a few years ago. Since the 80's he has been invading and interfering in the internal affairs of other dimensions without cause. Don't buy into his propoganda. |
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Heh, now I'm only looking forward to this even more.
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Originally Posted by gec72
So Praetoria goes from being the Crime Syndicate of America to the Justice Lords.
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I was just about to say that. Which again brings up, whats is the difference? Both took over the world and molded it to their vision of what it should be.
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So the Praetorian disinformation has already started, has it? |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its the age old concept isn't it.
People have craved 'strong leadership' who will 'do what is necessary' throughout history. Dont forget 'Primal Earth' 'Statesman' is a war criminal who led an unjustified and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation just a few years ago. Since the 80's he has been invading and interfering in the internal affairs of other dimensions without cause. Don't buy into his propoganda. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yep.|
Originally Posted by Rodoan
So the whole incestuous relationship thing was a blunder?
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| Wow, and I thought they'd come up with a way to make Tyrant really despicable. |
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Mr. Toast, your agonizer please...
| Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon |
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Its one of those irregular verbs isn't it ?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So the Praetorian disinformation has already started, has it?
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I state it like it is.
You* tell only part of the stroy
They mouth propoganda and lies.
*generic 'you' not Golden Girl. See 'Yes Minister' for the background to irregular verbs like this.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Except the Malta Group wants all metahumans under the control of a government that they in turn control. What Praetoria looks like is a government made of metahumans, which is something that would indeed be Malta's worst fear.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
I dunno, when I heard about that I figured it was their greatest dream realized. This is a world in which the 'Might for Right' act, or what ever Emperor Cole calls it, never got repealed. They're still under the rule of "if you have super powers, you belong to the government.
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Statesman said let there be heroes, and there were heroes.
Lord Recluse said let there be villains, and there were villains.
NCsoft said let there be nothing, and there was nothing.
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I can tell I'm going to have a hard time being able to tell Golden Girl and Emperor Cole apart. And not just because they go to the same tailor|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
*generic 'you' not Golden Girl. See 'Yes Minister' for the background to irregular verbs like this.
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Originally Posted by Khellendrosiic
Except the Malta Group wants all metahumans under the control of a government that they in turn control. What Praetoria looks like is a government made of metahumans, which is something that would indeed be Malta's worst fear.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
I was just about to say that. Which again brings up, whats is the difference? Both took over the world and molded it to their vision of what it should be.
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I'll be honest, it doesnt matter who or what they are, if theres loot and xp there . . . . . they're going down
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No, you state it how you'd like it to be |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its one of those irregular verbs isn't it ?
I state it like it is. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I agree completely with your assessment, and I would add that it is exactly this that makes Emperor Cole evil. Not evil in the same way perhaps as say, Lord Recluse, but evil nonetheless. To me Praetoria and the Rogue Isles are two extremes on the same scale. Praetoria is ruled by a despot who forces the citizenry to live as he sees fit, because it will keep them safe, but adversely robbing them of their free will. The Rogue Isles, on the other hand, are the exact antithesis of that principle, representing essentially a dictatorial anarchy. You have a certain degree of freedom, so long as you don't cross Recluse. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think it's more likely to be along the lines of him knowing what's "right" for the world, and being totally ruthless in trying to force his vision onto the world - I kinda expect him to be more cold, and arrogant, and lacking any sort of empathy for the people he's claiming to protect - like any one who doesn't share his view is a threat, becasue his "vision" is what saved the world, so anyone not in total sync with his mindset is a threat to the whole world, and should be dealt with in whatever way best protects Praetoria and the future of his world.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think that's because the Praetorians came out some time before CoV - so it's possible that Tyrant was going to be the main "mine is an evil laugh" ruler of a run down and dirty fascist empire, but the devs decided to remake the idea as Recluse and the Rogue Isles - so sticking to the original feel and look of the Praetorians would have maybe made them too similar to what we got in CoV, so they've deciced to develop a new theme on another type of evil empire and its ruler.
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This is a likely possibility.
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In other words, Tyrant is lawful evil and Lord Recluse is neutral evil. |
Originally Posted by Tabik
To me Praetoria and the Rogue Isles are two extremes on the same scale. Praetoria is ruled by a despot who forces the citizenry to live as he sees fit, because it will keep them safe, but adversely robbing them of their free will. The Rogue Isles, on the other hand, are the exact antithesis of that principle, representing essentially a dictatorial anarchy. You have a certain degree of freedom, so long as you don't cross Recluse.
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Well, let's take a look:|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, you state it how you'd like it to be
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Dont forget 'Primal Earth' 'Statesman' is a war criminal
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
who led an unjustified and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation just a few years ago.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Since the 80's he has been invading and interfering in the internal affairs of other dimensions without cause.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Curses! Replibots, GET HIM!|
Originally Posted by Ashcraft
Nuclear Toast is a Nemesis plot. You can't trust him.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Wait...but if the heroes of Paragon and the villains of the Rogue Isles are now moving in to Praetoria...doesn't that mean old brass bucket face is going to follow them?
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Originally Posted by Rodoan
Ok, this is what bugs me, Emperor Cole is also Tyrant, correct? There must be a huge retcon in the works, because previously Tyrant was portrayed at a level of evil that Lord Recluse would be jealous of. In the comics (which have been shown to be canonical with events like Posi's healing, Manticore & Sister Psyche's wedding, even War Witch's ghost) Tyrant rules from a junk heap that used to be their world's version of Atlas Park. He was flat out evil, up to and including torturing Statesman, and a strongly implied inappropriate relationship with his granddaughter.
I've heard that some new Praetorian zones will show that all is not bright and chipper, but Praetoria looks far too shiny to soon to be the same location depected previously. And this new Emperor Cole sounds like a good guy that made a very wrong decision, not the scum-sucking villain we've previously known as Tyrant. |
Yeah, I think it's safe to say there are going to be LOTS of inconsistencies with the current lore until it's retconned.
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Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
The 'Other Guy' was John Hegner.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Per the wiki|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Has Portal Corp been open that long? If it has, then yes us going in to other dimensions without any form of non-interference certainly qualifies and "invading and interfering". It doesn't matter how things look on the surface folks can't just rush in and force a complete upheaval of a populaces way of life unless they ask for help.
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the Statesman article has:
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| During the 1980s, he joined the Freedom Phalanx on expeditions into alternate dimensions and eventually battled the Reichsman, an evil version of himself from a reality where America had lost to Nazi Germany. After the fall of Communism, Statesman served as an adviser to the first independent Russian hero group, the Valiant Defenders of the Motherland, which made its appearance in 1993. |
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| On July 7, 1988, the brilliant Dr. Brian Webb, former researcher for Freedom Phalanx, held a surprise press conference at this site. He announced that he had discovered a way to enter other dimensions. He demonstrated his technology for the awed spectators, even transporting a few lucky reporters and dignitaries to an alternate world. Dr. Webb said, 'My technology has proven that possibility is truly limitless. The future is what we make of it. |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
@Golden Girl
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